Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #302 ecto, Number 302 Wednesday, 22 July 1992 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Replies on the femme-music thread morning mouthing This just in... RE: ecto #301 I hate to bother you all Tori Amos ooh! what should I buy? ======================================================================== Date: 21-JUL-1992 23:09:38.91 From: MTARR@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: Replies on the femme-music thread Hi! Wow, I really poured the open can o' worms all over the floor on this one, haven't I? I'm going to reply in chronological order of all the relevant postings I've seen since my last post, starting with Vickie, who was kind enough to send me all of the lyrics to "Damn..." and a few from other songs on the album, as well. Thus began my travels down the road to enlightenment. :) }It certainly doesn't matter if Sophie is gay or bisexual or not. }*I* think she is though, and it just seemed interesting and }wonderful that a song about 2 "issues" (lesbianism & domestic }abuse) got into the Billboard charts. >From just the lines that I'd seen previous to your sending them all to me, I wasn't so sure that the song was even about the two "issues" you mentioned, which is why I was asking for clarification and, yes, urging caution against jumping to conclusions. But now that I've seen the whole text of the song, I see exactly what you mean. I'd put it in the same file as Rainbirds' "Jesus First!", the one for ambiguous songs that are certainly unambiguous in their ambiguity. :) }Just to try to make perfectly clear my position....I wish: }1) More lesbian/bisexual artists would get signed to labels }other than the strict "feminst/lesbian" labels and get their }music out to a wider range of people. What would be even better, imo, would be to see the world so used to people of "alternative lifestyles" (to use a term that makes me writhe) that no one would notice or care that the musician they were listening to was gay or bi. People would gossip about, "Hey, Sophie B. Hawkins is seeing that woman in her last video" (which is, by the way, just a random example that has absolutely no basis in fact) the same way as they would to, "Hey, didja hear Kate Bush dumped Del for Geoffrey her gardener?" (see above disclaimer). A lesbian love song in the Top-40 wouldn't be a momentous occasion, it would happen all the time. Those would be the days... }In the same vein, there *are* separatists who will not listen to }anything that isn't on a "lesbian/feminist" label. They're just }shutting out lots and lots of good music by other women who }could use their support too. That's exactly what I meant when I made the comment about the people at that Margie Adam concert. I respect their right to like whatever music they've chosen to like, but I don't like to see people expressly excluding entire areas of music simply because they feel it doesn't fit their personal agendae. If someone has tried other kinds of music than "womyn's music" and then decided only "womyn's music" was for her, then the more power to her in her hoice. But if she categorically refused to even try the other stuff out there simply because it *wasn't* "womyn's music", I'd be tempted to try the locked-room-o'-Femme Music Collection experiment. If you want the rest of the world to have an open mind, it's nice to have an open mind yourself. }People like Sophie can help change attitudes. I'm not ezactly }sure how (hey, I don't have all the answers :-)) but noticing }that Sophie's hit song was a lesbian/bi love song just got me to }thinking, and wondering if the song would have gotten the }airplay and attention it did, if the message had been crystal }clear and in (their) face. Now I'm wondering the same thing, too. I have never heard the song, though I expect to this weekend (you still got the single, woj? :)- how clearly is she singing these words? What's the video like, outside of the plaid-vs.-bikini versions Mitch and others were talking about earlier? I highly doubt many DJs have taken the time to read the lyrics. If they had, then sadly, I think there would've been some kind of a flurry. We're waking up, but we're not out of the deep sleep by a long shot... Now to the Indigo Girls question. Thanks to Mike Mendelsohn for sending me the FAQ from the mailing list and a much more definitive answer than I was expecting to get- the question of their sexuality is most definitely not an unfounded rumour. And tp Jeff and Cathy, who were so aghast at the fact that I hadn't heard this rumour before: How could I have lived my life in ignorance of it? Easy. I like their music and all, but I've never been overly interested in anything more than that where they're concerned. I don't read interviews with them (except that one, right after I got the album- I came across it while looking for something else), I'm not on the mailing list, and I just never paid any attention. So sue me. Now- to Jeff's reply. }And why not just assume from the outset that Sophie (or anyone }else for that matter) is lesbian until "proven" otherwise? Why do you feel the need to assume anything about anybody? }And it's not as if assuming her to be a lesbian is a bad thing. }Or do you think that's an insult? Do I detect a veiled implication of homophobia on my part here, Jeff? If that's what you're getting at, then boy oh boy, you have NO clue just how off-base you are. }but I think you went a bit overboard when you were discussing }Tori Amos. I grabbed two random examples out of the air. Tori and that line from "Precious Things" popped into my head (and so I got the first one wrong... I've only seen the lyrics twice). So I used it to illustrate the point I was making: that one line from a song can cause one to make some pretty wild assumptions if one feels like it. Thanks for helping me drive that point home by your reaction. }You keep saying that you don't want to judge someone by single }lines in single songs. Why not? Why not? After you spent a bunch of bandwidth proving your point to me that using that one line from "Precious Things" as an example of how a false assumption can arise from just one line was "going overboard", you ask me why not? You've answered that one for yourself already. }Why not look at Melissa Etheridge's quote "Hello, hello, this is }Romeo", decide that if it's Romeo calling, "he" must be calling }Juliette, and therefore Melissa Etheridge is a lesbian? While we're waxing hypothetical here, why not look at that "this is Romeo" line, indeed. What if, from those words in one song, we assume Melissa Etheridge is a lesbian, when she really is singing the song from a man's point of view, and we're from USA Today and we decide to "out" her for it. What if we're dead wrong, since she's singing from a man's point of view, and it turns out she's a raging fundie homophobe with an army of good lawyers behind her? Libel suit city. Yes, I'm well aware how absurd that situation is- but flash assumptions can lead to some weird shit. (BTW, I knew that Melissa Etheridge is a lesbian already, for what it's worth...) }Yet you seem awfully eager to play devil's advocate. Why? Like I said, it was hot and I was feeling cantankerous. I knew I wanted to reply to what Vickie had been talking about regarding Sophie B. Hawkins, and at the time taking that tack seemed as good a way to go about it as any. Sorry if I disturbed you for presenting an alternative point of view just for the sake of engendering some lively discussion. }Meredith, I think you're a lesbian and I refuse to believe that }you might be heterosexual until I hear it in your own words. I }don't recall ever reading anything you've written to the }contrary so it seems like a safe assumption. And I repeat: why do you feel the need to assume anything about anybody? I could assume you're a retro-hippie because you're known as Jeff-with-the-long-black-hair, or I could assume you spend every waking hour doing nothing but flying kites because I've never read anything to the contrary. I could assume you're a mass murderer, since I've never read anything you've written to the contrary. See how ridiculous assumptions can be? If you really want to assume I'm a lesbian, go right ahead. But be warned: for now, I can prove you wrong. Cathy writes: }But it seems that it's 'the mainstream' getting all bent out of }shape about her. You stated earlier that you were looking }forward to when lesbian love songs were in the top 40 -- how }come you're objecting so strenuously to one now?? Did I ever say I objected to the presence of "Damn..." in the Top-40? No. If I was objecting to anything, it was the fact that, from my point of view at the time, it seemed to me that Vickie was making an issue out of a non-issue. But, as I said above, I've read the complete text to the song, and I now see where Vickie was coming from and what she was getting at. And I hardly think "the mainstream" is "getting all bent out of shape over her". Quite the opposite- that's exactly what spurred Vickie to comment in the first place, am I right? "The mainstream" seems to have missed what's going on in the song completely, from what I've gathered from Vickie's posts, and that doesn't speak "bent out of shape" to me. Finally, I still stand by my assertion that one line in one song effectively tells you nothing concrete about the person who wrote/is singing it. In the case of Sophie B., I stand enlightened. Rock on, dudes. +===============================================================+ | Meredith A. Tarr | | "I spent four years prostrate to the higher mind | | Got my paper, and I was free" - Indigo Girls | | mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu | +===============================================================+ ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 06:01:25 EDT From: woj@remus.rutgers.edu Subject: morning mouthing klaus@inphobos.w.open.de (Cosmic Vagabond) sez: >Can someone tell me a bit about "Bob State"? i assume you mean "808 state"? 808 state falls into the loosely defined category of "techno" music. this usually translates into a high-paced beat, cheesy synths and over-dubbed samples. 808 state is one of the better groups in this genre of music, partially cos they were one of the first bands to make a name for themselves amongst the emtv "alternative" crowd and partially cos what they do isn't all that bad (compared to others). >Was this a pre-Sugarcubes band? nope, though i dunno about any bjork/808 collaborations. the bands that bjork was in pre the sugarcubes were kukl, tappi tikarass and one other one which i can't recall the name of. jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu sez: >From February until May I'd been meaning to ask if anyone knew anything >about Meryn Caddell, since about a week ago, i've been meaning to do the same. i read a favor- able review of her album in a magazine last week and then heard about the npr spotlight from a friend. ain't it funny how these things seem to all of a sudden appear everywhere? Chris Sampson sez: > Third, does anybody know as the health of non-presidential >candidate, Frank Zappa???? as others mentioned, it's prostrate cancer. he's been noticeably silent in the recent past on the subject, but i think that things are beginning to turn up. the reason i say that is that i was informed that fz will be working on upcoming ren and stimpy episodes - he is supposed to be playing the pope in the forthcoming episode which will feature the re- turn of the powdered toast man. go figure. woj ======================================================================== From: guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com (Cathy Guetzlaff) Subject: This just in... Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 8:08:32 CDT ...Sophie B. Hawkins will be in Mpls performing at First Avenue on Sept. 25. Tickets are on sale for $7, they're general admission, and you must be 21 or older to get in. I don't go to many concerts at First Avenue (the last one was about 4 years ago when Toni Childs was there...) but the ticket price seems pretty cheap. Napalm Death tickets at the same place cost $8 so either Sophie B. fans are getting a deal or Napalm Death fans are getting taken! For those of you wondering, First Avenue was featured in Prince's movie _Purple Rain_. For those of you still wondering (since I think everybody in the Twin Cities saw the movie but probably only a dozen or so others nationwide saw it) it's your typical dark and smokey club, although not too dark and not too smokey since this is whitebread MN after all. -- Cathy Guetzlaff Cray Research, Inc. guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 09:59:28 EDT From: Chris Sampson Subject: RE: ecto #301 Just a clarification, To Doug: The list of eight or so questions was from me, Chris Sampson, NOT Chris Kennel......no harm done :) As a matter of fact, I'm not entirely sure I want to own up to it. :)) Thanks for the clarification, though about Zappa...... Chris SAMPSON ======================================================================== From: guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com (Cathy Guetzlaff) Subject: I hate to bother you all Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:13:47 CDT Sorry for bugging the whole list, BUT... Hey Meredith, I sent you a reply to your replies to the women's music thing. I completely forgot to copy ecto -- could you forward my reply to the list? Thanks! Now back to your regularly scheduled program. -- Cathy Guetzlaff Cray Research, Inc. guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com ======================================================================== From: guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com (Cathy Guetzlaff) Subject: Tori Amos Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:27:42 CDT As if a visit from Sophie B. wasn't enough, now First Avenue will be blessed with an appearance by Tori Amos! This one is August 1, you still gotta be at least 21, and tickets are $10 in advance (they must think she's better than Napalm Death!). I'm going, anyone else? -- Cathy Guetzlaff Cray Research, Inc. guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com ======================================================================== Subject: ooh! Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:44:49 -0400 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu What a pleasant surprise. Tonight is Sarah McLachlan's show at the Landsburg Theater (and I understand she is the debut performer in this brand new theater!), which I unfortunately cannot afford to attend (tickets are a ridiculous $20, compared to some of the bargains reported earlier in Sarah's tour). In any event, whilst eating luch, I turned on the radio to WHFS for the "Cafe" show, which is a 1 hour request thing. When interesting folks are in town, the Cafe is usually the show the appear on at the station. Lo 'n behold, completely unexpectedly, the dj said "And somewhere around here we've got Sarah McLachlan. We'll try to find her in just a minute." RUSH RUSH RUSH to dig out a blank tape and turn on the stereo! Result? A tape of *superb* live versions of "Drawn to the Rhythm" and "Path of Thorns (Terms)", as well as a sort of mini-interview, pretty much involving chatting while Sarah tuned her guitar. Don't you just love things like this? (and all of this follows a night where I had my second Happy Rhodes dream, which was very weird, and involved picking her up at the airport for some reason that I can no longer recall) Jeff |Jeffrey C. Burka | "Show what you are / Be strong, be true | | | Time for you to / Be who you are." | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | --Happy Rhodes | ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:23:45 EDT From: ksilver@startek.com (Keith Silver) Subject: what should I buy? Ok, I've listened and relistened to the Femme Music tapes that I borrowed from Ken and I've decided to try to buy some CDs. Who says taped music is killing the record industry? I'm going to ignore all of the lessons that I've learned from buying a CD based on one song that I've heard and ended hating the whole album except for that song. Two of the groups that I was interested in, Bel Canto and All About Eve, don't have the CDs from the tapes in the Noteworthy catalog. They have Bel Canto "Birds of Passage" (I wanted to get "White-Out Conditions") and All About Eve "All About Eve" (at $7.70!). Are these CDs representative of their efforts? I remember reading somewhere that some of Bel Canto's stuff was not in English. Was "Birds of Passage" one of them? With all of the womyn talk going on in Ecto, I suppose that I should be more sensitive to "alternaltive languages". (-: Stuff I really liked but will probably have a tough time getting: Gyan, Cindy Lee Berryhill Stuff I really liked and will probably pick up at a future date or would like to check out more: The Innocence Mission, Caterwaul, The Catherines, Jennifer Fergusson, Hex, Psychowelders. I was also going to try to pick up some Clannad on recommendation. Somehow I settled on "The Magic Ring", but again, Noteworthy only has Anam, Macalla, Past Present, Sirius. Any opinions on what to get? Is Past Present a "best of"? Thanks for helping to stretch my CD dollar. Keith ======================================================================== From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:23:46 +0200 Subject: Re: what should I buy? Most of Bel Canto's songs are in English, but on every album there is a couple of songs in a "foreign" language. I put the foreign in scare-quotes because on "White-out conditions" there's a song in Norwegian, which is really Bel Canto's native tongue :-) I think all three records are worth having. "Birds of Passage" may be their best album. "Shimmering warm and bright" is more produced, and I've heard some people didn't like that, I'm not one of them. "Die geshichte einer Mutter", which I think is on the tape you heard, is my favourite song by Bel Canto, and its style is rather typical of the other songs on SWAB. Do you think not knowing the language sung detracts from the music? Personally, I love for example Dead Can Dance' songs in Irish, and Anima, although she sings in Arabic and French, neither of which I speak. Bel Canto has songs in English, French, German, Spanish, Norwegian (though I wouldn't have recognized it without lyrics :) and Arabic. I believe they (mostly Anneli) write all the lyrics themself. Kjetil T. ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is a README file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me (or leave in the incoming directory, just let me know) things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)