Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #299 ecto, Number 299 Monday, 20 July 1992 Today's Topics: *-----------------* World Cafe update and other goodies A few words on "lesbian music" tori concert ======================================================================== Date: 18-JUL-1992 23:11:31.15 From: MTARR@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: World Cafe update and other goodies Hi! Sitting here doing the mail thing and listening to World Cafe (on WSHU 90.1 in Fairfield, CT for anyone in the area, Saturdays from 6-10PM). RUTH is on right now- I haven't heard Kate on the radio for *ages*- it was preceded by something from Pat Metheny and a song that caught my attention from the minute the woman started singing. I thought it was Sinead on a bender, the voice had that twangy quality to it... and the song itself sounded pretty poppy, but the vocals made it worth it. I have now been introduced to Toni Childs- the song was "Walk And Talk Like The Angels" (come to think of it, she reminded me of Annie Lennox as well- must've been the angel thing :). Of course, this all happened too late to see her on Letterman. Things like that always happen to me. Thought you'd find that interesting, Vickie! :) Who writes: }Btw, for woj, you'll never guess who was on The Tonight Show (w/ }Jay Leno) while you were in Spain. Since it would take millions }of bytes and many months of guessing before you probably still }wouldn't get it, I'll tell you. Blue Man Group!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When was this?!?!?!?!?!? Oh, curse me for not checking every late-night talk show listing in the TV Guide for the first week since the summer began... (You didn't happen to tape it, did you?) Now World Cafe is bringing us Indigo Girls; "Land of Canaan"- I haven't listened to that album in a long time, maybe I will after the show is over. That was preceded by something from G.W. McLennan, whose debut solo album came out last summer when I was in Germany. A friend of mine got it, and we listened to and enjoyed it quite a bit before we came back and then I promptly forgot all about it. footah mentions re the KaTemas party: }side trips include possibly seeing the local/soon-to-be }national-and-truly-great group Tribe on wednesday the 29th, and }taking a day trip to Maine to visit the site of Organon, as }commemorated in KaTe's song "Cloudbusting". If the bit about heading up to Rangeley is serious, be warned it's at least a 4-hour trip up there from Boston, probably more on the weekend during the summer. Then you have to come back, and I'm not so sure the Organon museum is even open any more. (Of course, telling this to the man who dragged some unsuspecting foreigners down to New York City from Boston for dinner may be entirely futile, but hey... :) Valerie, dearest Valerie, you *know* that no matter how many people tell you to get back to Atlanta to see Sarah live, you'll somehow manage to miss it and you'll add it to your list of things to kick yourself over having missed. :) So my advice is: buy the ticket now, leave for these parts early and travel before KaTemas, and have a chance to see her when you get back. She's not playing up here for a couple weeks afterwards anyway. Hey- Tori is playing in Jacksonville, FL around that time too- you could road-trip down for that! Mitch reports: }As I write this, I am listening to the new album _Labyrinth_, by }Kerri Anderson, which was one of a number I picked up on sale at }Sound Warehouse the other day. On the whole, it's pretty good, }a mix of rock and acoustic; I don't know if y'all would like all }of it, but there's a good chance you'd like some of it at least. Yeah, that album has its interesting moments. I played it on my show a lot, but that was enough exposure to it for me- I didn't want to tape it for myself or anything. I know I shouldn't bring this up, but I'm going to anyway. Greg, how's the HBP coming together? [preparing to duck and dive for cover] +===============================================================+ | Meredith A. Tarr | | "I spent four years prostrate to the higher mind | | Got my paper, and I was free" - Indigo Girls | | mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu | +===============================================================+ ======================================================================== Date: 18-JUL-1992 23:14:36.32 From: MTARR@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: A few words on "lesbian music" Hi! Mike asks: }Does anyone know definitively whether both Indigo Girls (Emily }(high voice, guitar skills, light hair) and Amy (excellent low, }gritty voice, dark hair)) are lesbians, or just one? And if }they are seeing each other, or some third party/s? Oh, boy. First, out of pure salacious curiosity, I'm going to ask, Which one is rumored to be? Then I'm going to say that, if an interview I read with Emily when _Indigo Girls_ first came out is any indication, they're not really close friends as much as business associates. She said [paraphrasing here], "If I walked into a bar and saw Amy sitting there I'd say hi to her and everything, but I probably wouldn't sit at her table." For what it's worth, which is admittedly not much, they're also both born- again Christians, and while I'm fully aware that not all born agains are fundies, the possibility still exists that they might have a problem with homosexuality in general. Did this rumor arise because they are women and Amy has a tattoo? They use "Girls" in the name of their group, just like Two Nice Girls (who have never made any secret of their orientations)? Are there any specific songs which contain lines that are without a doubt about homosexual love? I really don't know, and would like to. I had fully intended to write an in-depth reply to Vickie's post on the subject of "lesbian music", but I lost the Digest in question before I could save out the post. I do remember some of the points I wanted to make, however, and since the Indigo Girls thing has come up and it seems to be on the table again, why not? If you all don't want this thread to go on, please reply in e-mail, as I don't know myself if posting this here is appropriate or not. Two lines in an ambiguous song do not a lesbian songwriter make. Sophie B.'s lines in question from "Damn I Wish I Were Your Lover" could very easily not be sexual- she could just be saying, If he were me, you wouldn't have to deal with getting beaten up on, since I would never do anything like that to you. Doesn't seem all that sexual to me- if my best (female) friend were in a situation where her bofriend was beating her up and her life was in danger, I would certainly wish I could take her under my wing and protect her from him- there wouldn't be anything sexual involved in that sentiment whatsoever. Are there any other lyrics on the album that would be more illuminating either way? I don't have the album, so I don't know. [Goddess, I wish I had the post in front of me to work with!] Granted, sometimes lyrics give you an impression that is impossible to shake, especially when the singer herself gives no clue as to where she's coming from. Take, for example, the following lines from Rainbirds' "Jesus First!", written and sung by Katharina Franck: And I watch her I know I'm not allowed to touch her There is a very special kind of mutual loving She hides her eyes and says it's shocking Well, I don't think I can take that much longer I tell her any kind of love could make her stronger She says, yeah yeah... ...Jesus first, she sighs And tumbles in the eyes of God She changed her mind last night The way we felt was beyond wrong or right She looks at me and smiles Now ain't there something missing Yeah, Jesus first we praise Jesus first, she says And tumbles back into my open arms The first time I heard that I thought Whoa, checked the liner notes, wondered what was going on there, and left it at that. Then Rainbirds came out with their third album, _Two Faces_, and the band now consists of Katharina and Ulrike Haage, who I assume is the "Uli" thanked on the first two albums. Now, there are some songs on that album which could also have lesbian overtones (*if you read them that way*), and they *did* get lots of help on the album by members of Wendy and Lisa's entourage... but I simply can't make a judgment one way or the other, beacause I have no evidence other than a very few song lyrics. The only way to know for sure would be to ask them myself and hope I got a straight (hm, there's an interesting choice of words :) answer. But as no interviewer has done that so far, we just can't know. And apparently the notion hasn't come up in German fan circles, either (right, Klaus? :). What I'm saying is, Don't jump to conclusions about a singer's sexual orientation from a few ambiguous lines in a few songs. Are people running around calling Tori's "Precious Things" a "lesbian song" for the lines "twisting my ankle/ running after Billy, running after Lorraine" and "no one ever told me/ where the pretty girls are"? No. Did people think Kate lesbian for "Ran Tan Waltz", where she takes the viewpoint of a man, or even for not changing the gender in "Rocket Man"? No. So why call Sophie B.'s song a "lesbian love song" from a very few lines, especially when that's not the point of the song at all? Why assume the Indigo Girls are lesbians because they're not the picture of femininity? Show me concrete proof, i.e. in her/their own words, and I'll believe you and go away. But until then, try to keep rumors at bay- especially when the rumors tread on very thin social ice. Just my two cents- sorry if it's dragging the thread out a bit. P.S.If k.d. lang hadn't come out in the Advocate, she would have eventually. And at least with the Advocate she knew she was in friendly territory- she could've been outed by USA Today or something equally heinous... +===============================================================+ | Meredith A. Tarr | | "I spent four years prostrate to the higher mind | | Got my paper, and I was free" - Indigo Girls | | mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu | +===============================================================+ ======================================================================== Date: 19-JUL-1992 20:47:11.53 From: Valerie Nozick Subject: tori concert thanks to those of you who tried to convince me to see tori. you'll be happy to know that i'm not going to let myself miss her live again. i broke down, and spent the money on a 7th row center ticket. hurray! vickie, don't get me going on politics. i could go on for hours about the presidential campaign, and bore ecto to death. right now, i'm trying not to mention gore. besides, tipper belongs much more on gaffa than here, wouldn't you say? :-) let's just say that i'm perot-clinton (say it aloud) nowadays, although i don't have much hope for the democrats this year. prove me wrong, please! and that i'm really happy with the way that clinton and gore have decided to run their campaign, that being their current bus tour. a better image you couldn't provide. hmm...all that belonged in a personal letter, didn't it? well, i *tried* to hold it back. *sheepish grin* thanks, meredith, for typing in the 7 wonders of the ancient world. i'll try to look up the other wonders on my lunch hour tomorrow. happy birthday to all the people who've had birthdays recently! i really should put together a program to remind me of them... (note: this next note has to do with kate, as well as politics, so it *does* belong here, assuming that kate can be in the exalted company of happy. :-) i think i'm starting to go crazy driving down my street. you see, all the campaign signs are up, since the local primaries are on tuesday, and this one woman has her picture on the sign. unfortunately, the picture looks *exactl.y* like the whole story cover pic, so every time i drive down the street, i'm bombarded with kate on both sides of me. the first time i saw this, i had to turn around a few times so as to get a close look at the picture. this woman looks a hell of a lot like kate, although, when you get close up, you can see a difference. but not when driving by! so i'm planning on going out on tuesday night and taking one of the signs, so as to get a good look at the picture. meanwhile, i'll just pretend that the sign says 'kate bush for senator' rather than whatever this woman's name is. i think i'll end this while my synods are still functioning. less than a week til sarah! and less than two weeks til katemas! hurray! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Valerie Nozick "happy rhodes, kate bush, tori amos? vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu atlanta didn't know what hit her!" ---a recently-become-southerner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 21:29:43 EDT From: Vickie Mapes Subject: Re: A few words on "lesbian music" DAMN I WISH I WAS YOUR LOVER By Sophie B. Hawkins That old dog has you chained up alright Give you everything you need To live inside a twisted cage Sleep beside an empty rage I had a dream I was your hero CHORUS: Damn I wish I was your lover I'll rock you till the daylight comes Make sure you are smiling and warm I am everything Tonight I'll be your mother I will Do such things to ease your pain Free your mind and you won't feel ashamed This monkey can't stand to see you black and blue Give you something sweet each time you Come inside my jungle book What is it just too good Don't say you'll stay 'Cause then you go away CHORUS Shucks for me there is no other You're the only shoe that fits I can't imagine I'll grow out of it Damn I wish I was your lover If I was your girl believe me I'd turn on the Rolling Stones We could groove along and feel much better I could do it forever and ever Give me an hour to kiss you Walk through heaven's door I'm sure We don't need no doctor to feel much better Let me in Forever and ever and ever and ever I sat on the mountainside with peace of mind I lay by the ocean making love to her With visions clear Walked for days with no one near And I return as chained and bound to you CHORUS -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A few lines from other songs on the album: "Your kiss, your kisses set me free.../To touch to feel what you give me/ We are one body/We are one spirit/One breath/One dream of life and death/ One God/One sex" I started to type in lyrics to the songs "Mysteries We Understand" and "Listen" but they're not quite as clear cut as "Damn..." and "We Are One Body" seem to be. The song "Don't Stop Swaying," if looked at in a sexual way (you're right Meredith, it's all in the point of view sometimes,) could be a bisexual anthem, or a song about having a male friend and a female lover or a song about having male and female friends, if not looked at in a sexual way. The other songs are ambiguous. It certainly doesn't matter if Sophie is gay or bisexual or not. *I* think she is though, and it just seemed interesting and wonderful that a song about 2 "issues" (lesbianism & domestic abuse) got into the Billboard charts. Of course, it wouldn't matter to me one wasy or the other, if I didn't like the song to begin with, but I do, so it was extra special nice to see. The more good songs with interesting lyrics that get into the high charts, the better. About the Indigo Girls, various lesbian friends have told me over the years that they are indeed gay, though maybe not parters with each other. Maybe that's wrong and if it was, then I was guilty of passing along a rumor. Sorry. Though it is true that they have a very large lesbian following, who, I know now, actually discoverd them before the mainstream audience. Just to try to make perfectly clear my position....I wish: 1) More lesbian/bisexual artists would get signed to labels other than the strict "feminst/lesbian" labels and get their music out to a wider range of people. Though I honestly admire those labels (such as Olivia) for putting out music that otherwise would not be heard by anybody (it is an indie label, after all, and I salute them,) much of the music on those labels is really bad. Now, that's not uncommon, because most of the music put out by *major* labels is bad, but...when really, really good artists want to reach a wider audience, labels like Olivia discourage them. I'm thinking of an artist like Phranc, who got into all kinds of trouble when she left Olivia and was signed by a major label. She was accused of selling out, of discarding her supporters (shoot!) in the lesbian community. She was very touchy about it and said that all she wanted to do was to reach a bigger, more diverse audience. In the same vein, there *are* separatists who will not listen to anything that isn't on a "lesbian/feminist" label. They're just shutting out lots and lots of good music by other women who could use their support too. I have realized that there are lesbian/feminist communities that are much more open-minded than the one I tried to work with, so there are certainly exceptions to everything. I'll be the first to admit that my bad experieces have left me bitter and cynical, but I really do not mean to paint the entire lesbian/feminist population as being narrow-minded and separatist. 2) That gays and lesbians have completely equal rights in every area, including, for this discussion, in the music business. I completely agree that it shouldn't matter if a well-known artist is gay. But it does matter to some people, and if they won't play that artist's music because of it, or discriminate against that artist in any other way, that matters to *me*. I base that on being fans of kd lang and Phranc. Now, musically and vocally, kd is superior to Phranc, but still, Phranc is very talented, and should have wider recognition. While kd has been ambiguous over the years about her sexuality, Phranc makes no bones about it. I say good for her, and I admire her a lot, but I do think that she will have a hard time breaking out to a wider mainstream audience because of her sexual preferences. Now, I don't want Phranc to change, I want the attitudes of the programmers and other people who "have the power" to make and break artists, to change. People like Sophie can help change attitudes. I'm not ezactly sure how (hey, I don't have all the answers :-)) but noticing that Sophie's hit song was a lesbian/bi love song just got me to thinking, and wondering if the song would have gotten the airplay and attention it did, if the message had been crystal clear and in (their) face. Btw, if it's "politically incorrect" for me to express disatisfaction and bitterness toward the separatist lesbian/feminist community, then I can't help that. To me, separatism is as bad as racism and sexism. The Perfect Irony: I get accused of being a separatist myself because I only feature female vocals. *sigh* Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 21:46:04 EDT From: Vickie Mapes Subject: Re: tori concert You can send this via e-mail, but I'm *really* curious.... What do you have against Gore? I hope it's not just because of Tipper. I can think of all kinds of situations where a spouse/SO did something that was unpopular, and it's wrong to judge one person because of what the other one did. Besides, even if Al Gore realized that Tipper's actions might hurt him politically, he never told her to put a lid on because of it. I admire him for many things (his environmental activism, his expertise on technology and his willingness to fight for electronic freedoms, and many other issues) and his not telling Tipper to shut up about something she really believed in (in a "Concerned Mom" mode, rather than a Jesse Helms "Fascistic Bible-Thumper" mode) makes me like him even more. Yes, he voted for military action in Iraq. That's the only thing I've ever heard about him that bothers me. Still, it was not a black or white situation, and voting yay doesn't mean that he's all gung ho and in favor of war. Vickie ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is a README file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me (or leave in the incoming directory, just let me know) things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)