Errors-To: owner-ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu From: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@athos.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #135 ecto, Number 135 Tuesday, 28 January 1992 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Dubbing List Re: ectobaloney Re: a serious question Stuff (tm) Ecto Post- No Fluff ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 05:03 CST From: vickie@chinet.chi.il.us (Vickie Ann Mapes) Subject: Dubbing List Still dubbing, but almost there. If your name is on this list and you haven't sent me a tape, please do so, if you wnat the show. If you sent a tape (or money) and there's no "done" beside your name, it just means that I haven't got to you yet. If your name is not on this list but should be, please e-mail me to make sure I actually received your request. If your name is not on this list but you want it to be, let me know. I won't wait for tapes to come in before sending these out, but I will wait until I'm completely done with what I have here. Barger, Jorn Bartlett, Kevin Blank-Edelman, David Bloom, Brian Bossert, Gregory done Bur, Justin done Burka, Jeff done Burks, Doug done Dallas, Courtney done Dembski, Jessica Dougiamas, Martin Fagg, Steve done Guetzlaff, Cathy done Hargie, Kirstin done Johnson, Tom done Kluge, Klaus done Kyrlidis, Angelos done Lubkin, David Lueck, Jeff done Malman, Joel done Mendelson, Mike done Peskura, Michael done Philipsen, Albert done Pravatiner, Mitch done Relph, John M. done Sady, Gene done Schreiter, Jeanne done Segel, Daniel done Semich, Mark done Somerstein, Rodney Tao, Sammy done Tarr, Meredith done VanDevender, Steve Woiccak, Rob (woj) done Wong, Barry done Yli-Krekola, Perttu Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 04:40 CST From: vickie@chinet.chi.il.us (Vickie Ann Mapes) Subject: Re: ectobaloney Vickie here. Woj brought up an interesting topic: > which leads me to a related topic: i wonder how many people are turned > off by the atmosphere here. i imagine that there are those who would > like to get happy news but without all the fluff and stuff that shows > up from the regular posters. Well, since I'm the main Fluff & Stuffer here, I suppose I ought to say something.....I just can't think of anything. Wait, yes I can, I suppose those who just want basic Happy news should stick to rec.music.gaffa because most of the really important news gets posted there. The trivial news they could live without. Ecto is so much more (IMHO) than just processing Happy-related news. It's nice to have a place where I can mention that Happy's cat has had major sugury, I sure wouldn't put something like that in gaffa (probably not even if it were about Kate's cat!) but Ecto to me is a place where I *can* Gush Fluff & Stuff and not be flamed to oblivion. Kill files in mail is an option, but putting me in a Kill file would mean that the killer would miss out on a lot of tidbits. I'm not willing to change my writing style. I have changed my writing style in gaffa, but I don't see why I should in Ecto, at this point in time anyway. If I *did* get flamed to oblivion then I would have to figure out what to do. I don't see your post as being a flame, and I can understand how some of my posts can get on people's nerves. Right now, I see it as not being my problem. Skip me or read me, I could care less. Just don't flame me (not that you are) for being myself. The current flame war in gaffa is interesting to me, because it points out the major difference between Love-Hounds (as a mailing list/newsgroup) and Ecto. Jorn's suggestion that there be a mailing list that would forcibly keep out the assholes is clearly unworkable. Assholes can't (nor should they) be censored. The idea that struck me as I was reading Jorn's post and Steve VanDevender's disapproval, was that you can't "force" niceness on a mailing list or newsgroup. That's what's so great about Ecto. The niceness here isn't forced. There are no flames not because we're keeping out "jerks" but because people don't feel the need to be imbroiled in flames all the time. We have a lot of differing opinions, and are an amazingly diverse group, yet there hasn't been a flame war here in all the months it's been around. I think we're due for one one of these days, but I hope it doesn't happen anytime soon. I don't see why the homey family atmosphere should go away as it gets bigger. Maybe it will, but those who are uncomfortable with that type of atmosphere should either unsubscribe or get used to it. Why should this mailing list turn into a mechanical info processer like so many others have? No reason, unless flamethrowers join just to stir up trouble and we *let* them. I'm not talking censorship, I just think that ignoring flames, or coming back in a calm manner is the best way to discourage the flamethrowers. Now, I'm no expert at this, because I've usually been one to jump right into flame wars in gaffa and I can be rude too. However, I see gaffa as a lost cause. There have been flames there since the beginning and there always will be. As greatful as I am to gaffa for so many things (including the creation of Ecto) I just don't feel very protective or fond of it anymore. "Distant" is a good word (stolen from he-who-shall-remain-nameless) even though there are still lots of good people on the list, including most of you all. I *am* very protective of Ecto and fondness goes without saying, so anything that can be done to protect it, I'll do. That includes being adamantly against it becoming a newsgroup and it includes not coming back at you with the first sarcastic thing that came to my mind, which is certainly what I'd be inclined to do on gaffa, if you'd written the same thing there. > i'm not afraid to admit that i am somewhat turned off by the gushing > that goes on here, but i can deal with it since i like and know the It makes a difference if you know the people involved? > i would expect that there are others who would not want to put up with > this though and have either left or not bothered. that's fine since the > general opinion here seems to be one of a family anyways, but i do feel > for the folks who left or not subscribed, missed out on the good stuff > that is here cos of that. Well again, that's not our problem. Ecto shouldn't be robotic and non- emotional just because it makes some people who have checked it out barf. Why do you feel sorry for them? Sorry because they left or not joined because of the "Fuzzy Blue" atmosphere? I'm more inclined to feel sorry for them because they can't handle this kind of atmosphere. > well yeah. but i never stated my reasons. like angelos, i oppose the > fracturing of the rec.music hierarchy on artist divisions. if r.m.g > were to go to a vote now for its creation, i would happily vote no since > doing so would result in a flood of rfd's for rec.music. here>. in my opinion, that is ultimately bad for usenet. in the past > few years, there have been votes on rec.music.rock, r.m.rush and some- > thing else i can't remember. if these all failed (and they did), i'd > wonder about the success of r.m.ecto. while that has nothing to do with > my reasons for voting no and should not discourage anyone from trying > to create the group, i will warn you that there is a sizable bloc of > folks (loosely known as the erland cult) who oppose the non-sensical > division of r.m.m. i've already thrown my cards in with them. so there. I've wanted to say this for a long time. I think "The Erland Cult" is just about the silliest thing I've seen on Usenet. I know there are Cultists here on Ecto, so now I'm sticking my neck out, but I have to be honest. First, I should say that Erland himself annoys me a lot. He's very imformative, but his attitude usually drives me up a wall. He annoys me like I know I annoy other people. I don't usually read him very much anymore because I have more then once hit "F" in anger and then killed my response before sending it. I think one day I might go ahead and send a reply and, really, the *last* thing I ever want is a bunch of Cultists coming down on my head, so I quit reading his posts. Recently though, I've kept up on the "creation of rec.music.rush/phish" thread in new.groups and have been reading the reorg. thread too. I have no interest in Rush or Phish or even the reorg groups, but I am interested in how the various arguments on each side are presented. I understand the Cult's interest in the long-term of Usenet, and though I would never consider (or want) to be a Cultist, I agree with many of the arguments coming from that side. Sometimes though, I just can't understand the mind-set there. For instance, I voted for creation of the Indian music groups and I noticed some of the Cultists voted against it. Why on earth why? Brian Bloom, you voted against it, why? What's it to you? Very few people were talking about Indian music before the creation of these groups, and someone probably popped up and said, "no one is talking about Indian music, why have a newsgroup?" but as soon as they were created, they (especially the classical group) got quite busy. You'd see all these Indian names that you'd never seen before. This was a group that was obviously wanted by a lot of people. These people felt that their music didn't fit on rec.music.misc or rec.music.classical. I am *so* glad it passed, and I'm glad the Cultists didn't put up much of a fight against it. The thing I fear most from the Cultists is their threat that rec.music.gaffa and other music groups might be rmgrouped one day. Erland himself has said that he'd like to see them merged back into rec.music.misc. That's silly, IMHO. Chinet just got trn, which has made a major difference in how I read news. The size of a newsgroup doesn't matter to me anymore, but it used to be a major headache, so I can sympathise with those who would like to see *more* music newsgroups, to cut down on the traffic in .misc. I won't vote for something like rec.music.rush or .phish, but I won't vote against either. DK> The most obvious benefit is the exposure that Happy will gain. > yes and no. through vickie's and other's endless promotion, anyone who > reads rec.music.misc will already have gotten an earfull of info on > happy. creating r.m.e will not increase that exposure sizably. I agree. The disadvantages of rec.music.ecto far outweigh the advantages, IMO. One thing that comes to mind, besides all the other recent arguments, is that if a group has a lot of flamewars it affects how people view the subject. Wait, I'm not saying it very well. I'll use rec.music.gaffa as an example. All the flame wars there have surely driven many people away. It's unfortunate, but a reality. I assume most of those people are casual+ Kate Bush fans. They are big enough fans to want to check out the group, but not big enough to want to put up with the muck. They'll go away and still like Kate as much as they did before. I wonder though, about the people who check out gaffa because of a spark of interest in Kate. If they see losts of flames, they might go away thinking "gee, Kate Bush seems to have a lot of real flamish jerks as fans, I don't think I want to be associated..." and they'll remember that "aura" come up every time Kate is mentioned. That's broad, but I have talked to people who felt like that, so it does happen. If Happy were "tainted" by the stink of flame wars the way Kate has been, I would be crushed. The Happy Wars in gaffa are still far too fresh in my mind, because I think/know that they affected some people's perceptions of Happy. (I can quote this shit: "frankly, right now you could not *give* me a Happy Rhodes CD!!") That's one of my main reasons to be against rec.music.ecto. Vickie vickie@chinet.chi.il.us _________ |_ _ | _ Fuzzy Blue Wonderland "We're waking up |__|_ ||_| "There is a road straight yes it's good" to my heart" ======================================================================== From: lubkin@apollo.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 10:07:31 EST Subject: Re: a serious question Anyway, the point is I'm not sure I like the idea of ecto being gatewayed into a newsgroup. I'm willing and intend to get more information before i make a decision - maybe there are several people at the site who are interested and thus they feel a local news group is more practical than all of them subscribing to the mailing list? maybe it's a gateway to a bbs where people who do not have internet accounts and/or email capabilities could have access to it. I think in either of those cases I'd say ok. If it's a gateway to a regular newsgroup (even if it's only local) i'm not sure I like the idea. I agree. No newsgroups. -- David. ------- ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 07:39:04 MST From: dbx@olympic.atmos.colostate.edu (Doug Burks) Subject: Stuff (tm) Greetings, A warm fuzzy blue and happy Happy welcome to Dave Heath and compatriots. Glad you could pull up an electronic chair next to our fuzzy blue fire. (Hey, does Mitch have that on his list yet?! Fuzzy blue fireplace logs! Perfect for those cold winter nights) Don't worry about causing a controversy. This mailing list was born amid one, and has a touch of the siege mentality that goes with it, a siege against industrial strength cynicism. (How did I, a proud and impeccably credentialed cynic end up on this side of the fence! Beats me, but I'm happy I did!) Dave, if you want to cause some _real_ controversy, try to subscribe using the address 'ecto@bigsky.uucp'. :) (Did I feel the Ecto world just shudder? :) ) Re: the Central Bank of Ecto [That's Vickie name, by the way!] One problem with duping tapes is mailing them all over the world. Crop of cassettes comes in. Crop of cassettes is dubbed. Crop of cassettes of mailed out over the world. Well, instead you could send money to the person dubbing the tapes (i.e., me), which would pay for a number of cassettes. As long as money remains in your account, you just drop a note to me asking for a copy of whatever, the Happy Whatever Projects, SiG, the Philadelphia show. Your account could be topped off any time. A copy would be made, mailed, and the cost deducted from your account. That would also allow me to buy cassettes by the box, making things a little cheaper for you. Different quality cassettes could be available. This would save everyone the inward bound leg mail in cassettes. Of course, that option would always be available. I don't think Doug knows what he's gotten himself into :-) Oh, I have an idea, but I've given it the thought it's due and am more than willing to give it my best shot. The floor is open for comments, suggestions, etc. Re: mailing list vs newsgroup I definitely lean towards keeping this a mailing list, but for the sake of discussion, I want to address the opposite. If this list does become a newsgroup, what would happen? During our discussion about letting the Cynthia Rosas' of the world into Ecto, Vickie dropped the off-hand remark that she doubted anyone could start a flame war in the midst of warm fuzzy blueness. In many ways that is true. The tone of a mailing list or a newsgroup is set by its major posters. Newcomers will hook up and get the feel for the group at first and find what we have here. I can't see how someone would stumble onto a friendly newsgroup with informative posts and try to ruin it. Of course, someone eventually would, trying to spark a flame war for the love of it. Dealing with those people requires restraint on ourselves. Ken Brownfield's recent post to Gaffa on this subject should be required reading. (Unfortunately, I didn't save it.) The worst flamers simply want attention. Don't give it to them and they'll go away. Unfortunately, someone always seems to do so. That's what we would have to quash. My reasons for keeping this a mailing list is the 'family' feeling that several people already mentioned. We would lose some of the whacky off-beat items that make Ecto so fun. I mean, could see the birthday list surviving in a newsgroup? (I always wonder what the rec.music.misc readers thought when Vickie posted it there, asking someone to forward it to Ecto, when 'chinet' was being more ornery than usual). That's what makes Ecto so special. As long as we're small enough to keep this spirit, we should stay a mailing list. However, I presume (and even hope, for Happy's sake) that someday we'll grow too big to do this, and rec.music.ecto will materialize. By the way, did someone forge Jorn's name to a certain post in Gaffa recently? :) Angelos pleads: SiG. Hooray! Vickie PLEASE post the SiG history. I'm sure it will make fascinating reading. Consider that seconded (or third-ed (or whatever order I end up here)). Split it up, if necessary. Besides, not everyone has FTP access. Jessica wrote: so, if i'm an ectomorph and vickies an endomorph, then who is the mesomorph? If this is being restricted to the female Ectophiles, I doubt we have one, unless Linda Hamilton is lurking, unbeknownst to me. (Hey, I just realized I'm an ectomorph, too! Too hip!) As for men, real men, who are always mesomorphs, don't use computers. :) The Ecto Goddess also grants to us mere mortals: Ok, I've moved the ecto archives, and put all the back ectos in it - they are now located on hardees.rutgers.edu, in the same location. [...] There's *tons* of space there, if you've got any gifs or anything of interest you'd like to make available, mail it to me or ftp it into hardees incoming area and let me know. I humbly genuflect and sing your praises! I'm sure I've already probably gotten someone mad there, picking up all the digests! By the way, for the nameserver-impaired, the Internet address is: 128.6.18.2. For the FTP- impaired, I'd be willing to forward anything from the archives via e-mail. (A computer named after a fast food restaurant? Yechhh! :) ) Vickie, I checked my LP, and "How Sweet to Be an Idiot" is lop-sided there. No problem on your end. Talk about strange. The radio (KTCL) just played a medley by the Pet Shop Boys of U2's "Where the Streets Have No Name" and "Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You", a hit for Anthony Newley (?) (Any help here, sixties freaks?). Ultra strange. Ever more seriously considering an East Coast swing in late March :) .... Doug Burks _O_ dbx@olympic.atmos.colostate.edu |< She really is!! ======================================================================== Date: 28-JAN-1992 11:21:38.22 From: MTARR@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: Ecto Post- No Fluff Hi! Just got back from my first show of the semester, and I believe three people were actually listening (this is our first day on the air, I'm sure word hasn't gotten around yet). _Warpaint_ is reposing in the New Release rack, and I'm going to put a review on it this afternoon ordering everyone with a rock/folk/whatever show to play it as much as possible. I also ran into a lot of neatoid stuff, some of which I will go into now. Firstly, there was a CD-single of "Hit", the first single from the Sugarcubes' forthcoming album- the title escapes me now, but it's due for release on 7 February. Judging by that song, it seems Einar has learned his lesson and faded into the background (yay), but Bjork's spent a bit too long with 808 State. We'll see if the rest of the album proves this hypothesis! _Solace_ has been pushed back to 11 February, which didn't come as a surprise. In a new LP from Faith Over Reason entitled _Eyes Wide Smile_ (a collection of demos, their first US release), there was an insert from their label, Black Cat Records, who also carry Heather Frith. They had a blurb from the label about Frith's EP "These Walls": "Early days from a singer who is being touted by the British music press as the new Kate Bush." This is probably no news to most of you, but it was to me. We don't have anything of hers that I can find at the station (though that doesn't mean anything)- but I do want to know, if she's the new Kate Bush, what they did with the old one. Maybe that explains why the new album is so long in coming... :) Court, here's one for you: a band called Y Cyrff, with an album entitled Llawenydd heb Ddiwedd, and not a speck of English on either the album or the sleeve. They sound like they fell out of the Midwest, and the recording quality was abyssmal (I didn't find Del Palmer spelled in Welsh in the liner notes anywhere ;), but this is something I'd like to find out more about, hint hint. What does their name and the album title mean? Their address was Cardiff, if that helps, and their label was something unpronouncably and unspellably Welsh. Hey- any Ectophile New England SF-types planning on going to Boskone in Springfield, MA in two weekends? If so, let me know- woj and I will be there, and it'd be neat to get together with anyone we could... *---------------------------------------------* | Meredith Tarr | | *** | | "Living in the gap between past and future" | | *** | | mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu | *---------------------------------------------* ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 17:18 GMT From: Merow!! i vote a big fat NO!!!!!!!!!!! as far as mkaiing Ecto a newsgroup goes.... i DONT want to lose this "family" feeling... sorry if it bothers some peop[le but for others it means more than you can ever realize!!!!! meredith: try listening to the last three songs on side A or rearm... when the dawn breaks, the issue is, and dreams are...THAT is the reason for earm being a VERY close second to my favotrite album..Ecto... i cant live without Ecto!!!! (sorry my typing is so bad..bad keypad here!!!) (excuses excuses eh?? hehehehe) correction to make: especually to Angelos who is the only one who has questionedme about it.. the Best of was NOT of Lene Lovich..sorry..it was Nina Hagen...i have the w both of them on my brains in "look for " mode..thus i got them mixed up.. sorry if i confused anybody!!!!! i think thats all...merow to all... the Cat... ======================================================================== To join ecto, please send electronic mail to the following address: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu To have your thoughts included in the next issue, send mail to: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To subscribe to "Ecto", the printed fanzine, send $8 to: Ecto PO Box 11291 New Brunswick, NJ 08906 Ecto is issued 8 times/year, and will include photos and as much material from non-net members as we can get! Donations above the subscription cost are welcomed - all money goes to bringing you better issues! Your "humble pseudo-moderator" -- jessica (jessica@athos.rutgers.edu)