Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #541 ecto, Number 541 Sunday, 25 April 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Today's your birthday friend.... Blame it on the Boogie(man) Welcome! Today's your birthday friend.... Re: Philosophy --> Happy Zwischen Chaos und ohne Ziel Bobo again Aural Gratification Address Re: hello ======================================================================== Subject: Today's your birthday friend.... From: klaus@inphobos.w.open.de (Cosmic Vagabond) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 00:12:41 GMT i*i*i*i*i*i *************** ***HAPPY******* ********BIRTHDAY*** ******************* ****** Jeff Burka ***** *********************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeff Burka Thu April 24 1969 GoFlyAKite Christine Waite Tue April 25 1972 Taurus Geoff Parks Sun April 30 1961 Taurus Gray Abbott Tue May 3 1955 Suprised Mark Semich Thu May 6 1965 Yield Joe Dembski Wed May 7 1952 Rumple Brian Gregory Thu May 9 1963 Eclectic Steve Fagg Tue May 13 1958 Taurus Christopher Boek Tue May 19 1970 Taurus Beth Perry Tue May 21 1957 Glad Yngve Hauge Fri May 21 1971 Gemini -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.w.open.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! Tue May 21 1957 Glad Yngve Hauge Fri May 21 1971 Gemini -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.w.open.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 21:46:42 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Blame it on the Boogie(man) Mucho apologies for that confusing letter last night. It's all my fault, I brought it on myself, but also this last week my doctor lowered my antidepressant dosage from 200mg to 50mg. I don't know why, he didn't tell me, and I thought it would be ok. Obviously it wasn't, not at all. I really want to explain, but I can't right now. Chip and Chris and I are going to see Penelope Houston. Mainly I just wanted to say that I'm ok now, and I'm sorry I did that. JohnZ, believe me, you don't. :-) Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 21:48:01 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Welcome! Hey, welcome to Ecto Dennis and Kevin! Vickie ======================================================================== Subject: Today's your birthday friend.... From: klaus@inphobos.w.open.de (Cosmic Vagabond) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 00:11:03 GMT i*i*i*i*i*i *************** ***HAPPY******* ********BIRTHDAY*** ******************* *** Christine Waite *** *********************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Christine Waite Tue April 25 1972 Taurus Geoff Parks Sun April 30 1961 Taurus Gray Abbott Tue May 3 1955 Suprised Mark Semich Thu May 6 1965 Yield Joe Dembski Wed May 7 1952 Rumple Brian Gregory Thu May 9 1963 Eclectic Steve Fagg Tue May 13 1958 Taurus Christopher Boek Tue May 19 1970 Taurus Beth Perry Tue May 21 1957 Glad Yngve Hauge Fri May 21 1971 Gemini -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.w.open.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 17:04:57 MET DST From: Albert Philipsen Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) writes: >Ok, the world record to explain this is two hours - It's now 12.17 pm and I >got to leave this place at 2 am. So if I do not get to finish it I'll do it >later. But first I want to tell you why and how I came to this. > >Yesterday (errr...last night is more correct) I met this guy I've heard >about before (some guy has heard from anotheer guy that this guy has heard >etc kind of stuff) I've always wanted to meet him and I did and I got him >converted to a Happy-fan as well!!!!!!!!!! We listened to Happy and Tori >while talking. This guy is not very much older than me but he has written >one book that might revoult the entire world view. Ok, I had heard much of >his theories earlier or let's say did knew somewhat like what it was/is >all about. He has called it ---> A Dynamic Hydraulic World view. It builds >on the following four points > >1. Universal energi (All energi you can think of and all the energi you are > not able to think of) >2. Universal mass (Just as above) Doesn't he know about the equivalence of mass and energy (E = mc^2)? Mass is just another form of energy. This follows from Einstein's (special?) theory of relativity. >3. Universal emptiness (Think about how much emptiness there is in an atom > If the atom had had a radius of 200-300 kms the > protons and neutrons would be somewhat as big as > a melon......and the .... ehhmm you would see them. > The rest is emptiness.) Pity our emptiness! :-) >4. Universal Egoism (You can describe that as the soul of living > creatures I guess) There exists no such thing as the soul of a living creature. Our experience of consciousness can be completely explained as the result of the complex processes that take place in our brains. I can highly recommend the book _Consciousness Explained_, by Daniel C. Dennett, who has a lot of insightful things to say about this subject. >None of these things can exist without eachother. What is emptiness without >mass? Emptiness is not a thing that exists at all. It is nothing. >There would not be any mass without energie etc. But what about the >fourth point. Has this somewhat to do with the rest? Yes, I'm going to >explain this further on. > >You all know what a syclus is I guess. It's something that in a sort of way >bites itself in the tale. Yeah, it's the first step in the whole theorie. >Ok, what he is saying is that your life, the life of animals, plants, a >rock (even if it's not living :)) and everything has it's own syclus. Is there any evidence for the fact that these sycluses do exist? >If every syclus lived it's own 'life' without touch the others it would be >eternal (Carly Simon's 'Life Is Eternal' comes to mind right now). Where does this property of sycluses come from? I don't see any reason to assume this. >I'm sure >I put in some more examples right here but I'll continue for now...But it >is not like that. Just think of the reason I sit here ----> If not some >people had worked in one of those places that made just these machines I >would never have been sitting here and write this, I would never have met >this guy I talkes to yesterday, I would never have heard about Happy and >never met such a nice bunch that you all are. I don't see why sycluses are necessary for this explanation. It sounds perfectly reasonable without them. >Ok, That means that you can >think of your life as a metal feather. I can't think of my life as a metal spring (I guess that's what you mean; the Dutch words for feather and spring are also the same.) I would rather think of my life as a realistic story. >You will never get back to a single >point on it but you will always be very close. It's the influence from >other sycluses that make us all grow old. Again, I don't see why sycluses are necessary in a theory of aging. >Without them we could live >eternal (That's what his theorie says at least) As it looks now, this is just an unfounded assumption. >WOW! Half an hour and I've >come this far :) But what makes the whole thing just so very hard is the >time. When did the time start. Hmmm, the word 'when' doesn't make sence >without it :) I believe and he foes too that the time hasn't started, and >it will not end as Stephen Hawkins says - His theorie says some thing like >the illustration under : > ><(Min Time (0)) -------------------(MaxTime)-------------(Min Time (0)) > >The beginning The time starts >Big Bang etc go backwards > in this point > >Pretty hard to think about, isn't it. You'll in n years read this mail >backwards and not think anything about it. Silly if you ask me :) I admit that thinking about time can be quite confusing. :-) >His illustration is somewhat like this > >A river................ >------------------------------------------------------ >* (Your current location) * (future) -----------> >------------------------------------------------------ > >Ok, why did I mark the two spots? Hmmm, It is the most interesting point in >his theory at all cause it brings in stuff that most people have neglected >before. Some people dreams (Happy' 'Dreams Are') about the future in a such >exact way that one can be scared. "Dreams Are" isn't about those dreams you experience when you are asleep, but about dreams in the sense of desires. It's about how people lose their childhood ambitions when they grow up, if I remember something that Happy said quite a while ago correctly. >I've illustrated the time as a river. The >distance between the points is not defined. It can be very big or just a >tiny bit. The distance in time is here a important point though. The >further the distance between now and the the future occasion the less exact >is the information that returns. Yes I mean return cause how else can you >know anything about hte future at all without that some sore of energy has >made the way from there. I think it is perfectly possible to predict part of the future without there being some kind of communication with it. Actually, we do it all the time. The trick is to make a model that simulates a part of reality and run it faster than real time. >The reason why it is getting less exact is that >that energy is a syclus on its own and gets interacted by others just like >we are. That's why some dreams seems so real - It's one of many possible >futures but because you maybe meet someone will never happen at all. I think this is an explanation of something that doesn't need to be explained at all, namely the fact that dreams often don't correspond with something in reality. >I guess this got to be a new record or something :) But after I had heard >this I listened to Happy's songs in a complete new way. Especially songs >like 'Dreams Are' and 'To Be E. Mortal' seemed different. Any of you know >how she got to those lyrics? 'TBEM' made me think not only because of the >eternity thought but also of the words - Live, Die, Want, Be....... >Very central words in out lives. *scream* Some s*n *f * B***h has locked >my CDs in (all alone in all that darkness (quote from Abyss):() Ahh, I can >do it with the lyrics only (I guess). Those 4 words describe what we humans >long for and that is to live as long as and as good as possible. But the >word die always comes in between in a sort of way. You can't just get >around it. That's why I like this theory so very much. It's explains >something very important for us humans - Why do we die? Yes, because of all >the influence from other sycluses. Just the fact that you like this theory because it explains something important is no evidence for the truth of it at all. >And so to 'Dreams Are'.....It not only >exactly describes exactly one of my methods to find out about myself but >also something else, The comunication between now and future. It's what I >sometimes feel when I listen to this song. But other times I think about >the destructive forces inside you that tries to tear down what you stand >for/believe in. Seems like one follows the other here (BEEEEEP Override >alarm.....Watch out, this might be dangerous). Ok, I thought of the song >'Ecto'. I have heard the meaning of the word even if I haven't found it in >any dictionary myself...........(To be continued over the weekend) I was in a very similar mood last year around this time. It's rather scary. I had also developed my own theory about reality and such, and I was also seeing all kinds of connections with Happy's songs. I managed to lose touch with reality almost completely. I think I can best describe it as "dreaming while being awake". Yngve, I hope you will not go as far as I did. Albert "I need reassurance that I'll always be insane." - Happy Rhodes P.S. You haven't been channeling with Jorn now, or did you? :-) ======================================================================== Subject: Zwischen Chaos und ohne Ziel Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 13:53:48 EDT From: Angelos Kyrlidis Hi, As promised, a brief report on the Collapsing New Buildings concert. The concert started off more industrial than expected when the tour bus broke down in NYC and the band wasn't in Boston til about an hour after the doors had opened. This ended up being a pain, since we had to wait for about 3 hours in the upstairs of Axis, which is a rather small club... I guess it didn't help that because of the delay Miranda Sex Garden didn't play at all. [I bought their latest _Suspiria_ and find it very interesting. It ranges from beutiful ethereal to quite noisy and dissonant.] Anyway, around 10:15 the show started. We were by the mixing board, and got quite a good sense of the sound, but lost a lot of the theatrics and other stuff that happened on stage. The music was *AMAZING*. Definitely, like nothing else I have seen, equivalent in effect to the Diamanda Galas concert. Blixa, the vocalist, can sound anything from a Peter Gabriel-like balladeer to a howling possessed demon. F. M. Einheit (I think) was also omnipresent, doing everything from banging on an oil barrel, to emptying containers of pebbles on metal sheets to create the sonic background for the songs. It is quite amazing if you think about it that these guys can create all these sounds and rhythms on stage, live, without resorting to sampling and using sequenced tracks or synthesizers. That's what makes them truly industrial and separates them from bands like NIN and Ministry. They performed most of _Tabula Rasa_ (which was good for me, since I am only familiar with this album), and a couple of other songs that ranged from ambient noise to rythmic chants ('Salamandrina') to obscure and convoluted stories (the show closer which was sang in english). The highlights were 'Zebulon', 'die interimsliebenden' and 'Headcleaner'. As for fire, yes there was some :-) While they were performing 'Wueste', a song written for La la la human steps, N.U.Unruh was holding what looked like an eyedrop bottle, that was filled with gasoline (apparently) and after burning some paper he would let flaming drops fall to the rythm of FM Einheits pebble unloading. That was also amazing!!! Was it loud? Not really. The Suzanne Vega concert was *much* louder. REALLY. The crowd was quite different, though. Lots of goths in full attire, and an interesting array of hair colors and haircuts. Best outfit goes to the guy with the mohawk, who had a leather jacket with all things attached to it, from remote controls to IV tubes. I would recommend this show to all ectophiles with a tolerance for non ethereal not so quiet and beautiful music. The world is not always a wonderful place to be, and nothing captures its diversity like an Einstuerzende Neubauten show. ======================================================================== Angelos 'Lass meine Mitte dein Achse sein, um die dein Leib sich windet' ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 12:34 MET DST From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Subject: Bobo again Hi, Not only Hoerzu has an article about Bobo In White Wooden Houses, but TV Spielfilm (Issue 9.93 from April 23, 1993) has one too. First, the German version: ----8<---- Die liebe, gute Pop-Fee Diese Frau erfuellt Wuensche nach guter Musik. Sie ist die Fee des deutschen Pop: Bobo, die im wahren Leben Christiane Hebold heisst, rackert mit ihrer Band landauf und landab von Live-Gig zu Live-Gig und schreibt zwischendurch folkige Gitarren-Pop-Songs, die mit zum schoensten gehoeren, was der deutsche Osten - Bobo kommt aus Halle/Saale - musikalisch je hervorgebracht hat. Das staeindige Reisen hat wohl das zweite Album "Passing Stranger" inspiriert: zehn wohlklingende Reflektionen ueber "Bewegung, innere Reisen, das ewige Kommen und Gehen". Das gefaellt, wie man auf ihren Konzerten sieht, den ausgelassenen Teenies genauso gut wie den nachdenklichen Endlos-Studenten. Bobo erfuellt auch deine Wuensche. [Neben zwei Bildern:] Ein Blick in diese Augen und du bist verloren: Christiane Hebold, Leadsaengerin und Gitarristin von Bobo in White Wooden Houses ---->8---- Now the English one: ----8<---- The lovely, good pop fairy This woman fulfills wishes for good music. She is the fairy of the German pop: Bobo, called Christiane Hebold in real life, together with her band drudges throughout the land from live gig to live gig and inbetween she writes folky guitar pop songs that belong to the most beautiful things that the German East - Bobo is from Halle/Saale - has brought out musically. The permanent journeying probably has inspired the second album, "Passing Stranger": ten melodious reflections about "movement, inner journeys, the eternal coming and going". That pleases, like you can see at her concerts, not only the lively teenies but as well the thinkful endless students. Bobo fulfills your wishes too. [Next to two pictures:] One look in these eyes and you are lost: Christiane Hebold, lead singer and guitarist from Bobo in White Wooden Houses ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 20:34:37 -0400 From: labspm@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (King o' Pain) Subject: Aural Gratification Address Hi everyone! I've finally come out of lurkdom to ask a question. I want to order Rhodes I, Rhodes II, and Rearmament. I know that the address for AG has changed and someone posted the new address. I just want to verify that I have the correct one. I have: Aural Gratification P.O. Box 380 Bearsville, NY 12409-0380 Is this correct? Also, are the CD prices and shipping & handling charges still the same as the ones in the FAQ? Thanks ahead of time for any info. - Stuart ======================================================================== From: boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Christopher Boek) Subject: Re: hello Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 11:05:31 +1000 (EST) kevin writes ... > > hello everyone. I'm semi-sorta-new here. :) I've been subscribed for awhile, > but have just been reading and finally decided that it's time for me to stick > my head above ground (the light! the light! oh where can the rain be? (but I > digress...:) )) Anyway, I don't really have much to say, I have _Warpaint_ and > love it and I plan on getting more. :):):) But now the main point, if there > is one, with me I can never tell, a few days ago I sent a friend of mine some > tapes (1 tape that turned into 3 :) ) and I stuck 3 Happy songs on one of > them, last time I talked to her she hadn't gotten to them yet. :( So I am > eagerly waiting for her reaction.....but I best be going, I have a lot to do. > later all.... > > Kevin > Hello! Chris. -- | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | ||Christopher Boek - boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | || Dept Elec Eng Univ of Melbourne Australia | | | | | | | | | / "Anybody remotely interesting is mad in |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| \_/\_/\_/\_/\__/(:*- some way or another" ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 21:58:14 EDT Forwarded message: > From awphili@cs.vu.nl Sun Apr 25 11:24:11 1993 > Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 17:04:57 MET DST > From: Albert Philipsen > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy > Message-Id: <9304251704.aa18915@fluit.cs.vu.nl> > > yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) writes: > > >4. Universal Egoism (You can describe that as the soul of living > > creatures I guess) > > There exists no such thing as the soul of a living creature. Our experience > of consciousness can be completely explained as the result of the complex > processes that take place in our brains. I can highly recommend the book > _Consciousness Explained_, by Daniel C. Dennett, who has a lot of insightful > things to say about this subject. Gee, I'm glad this has been figured out! That makes whole branches of philosophy, all research in AI, one of my majors (Cognitive Science), lots of psychology, and even some computer science quite obsolete and/or redundant. I think you'll find that whether the phenomenon of consciousness can be explained in biological terms, it has *not* yet been *completely* explained, i.e. completely proven. Theories have been advanced, hypotheses tested, models built, and yes, even books written. But by no means has the question been settled once and for all. I really would take more care in opining such reckless statements as "there exists no such thing, etc." If that were a proven fact, and not an opinion, the face of academia would be a COMPLETELY different map. We're still debating what "consciousness" IS, for Tree's sake. > >None of these things can exist without eachother. What is emptiness without > >mass? > > Emptiness is not a thing that exists at all. It is nothing. Precisely: "no thing." The absence of a thing; the absence of mass. Even artists acknowledge positive and negative spaces as "things." > Is there any evidence for the fact that these sycluses do exist? If there were, the theory (or philosophy, which is what it really sounds like) would be proven. No one's saying it is. > Where does this property of sycluses come from? I don't see any reason to > assume this. See above! > >You will never get back to a single > >point on it but you will always be very close. It's the influence from > >other sycluses that make us all grow old. > > Again, I don't see why sycluses are necessary in a theory of aging. Of course not. If you did, you would have invented the theory. > >Without them we could live > >eternal (That's what his theorie says at least) > > As it looks now, this is just an unfounded assumption. It's called "speculation!" Guesswork! It's philosophy, not science. > I think it is perfectly possible to predict part of the future without > there being some kind of communication with it. Actually, we do it all the > time. The trick is to make a model that simulates a part of reality and > run it faster than real time. That's induction, not true knowledge. I realize you're very "hard science" oriented, but... > I think this is an explanation of something that doesn't need to be > explained at all, namely the fact that dreams often don't correspond with > something in reality. I think you'll find that dreams aren't yet fully understood either. > Just the fact that you like this theory because it explains something > important is no evidence for the truth of it at all. Did anyone say it did? This is not a published journal paper, it's a "listen to this idea, isn't it interesting?" No one offered a proof or any semblance of one. It's an idea, and ideas are F-R-E-E. Loosen up. > > I was in a very similar mood last year around this time. It's rather > scary. I had also developed my own theory about reality and such, and I > was also seeing all kinds of connections with Happy's songs. I managed to > lose touch with reality almost completely. I think I can best describe it > as "dreaming while being awake". Yngve, I hope you will not go as far as I > did. I don't consider this scary. Most people can handle speculations on the nature of reality and still make their 9:25 Advanced Maths class. I can, anyway. > Albert "I need reassurance that I'll always be insane." - Happy Rhodes > > P.S. You haven't been channeling with Jorn now, or did you? :-) > Jorn's theory wasn't the problem; it was his attitude. I thought Ecto was a place of ideas, not numbers. Drewcifer the Disillusioned ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)