From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V7 #93 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, August 15 2007 Volume 07 : Number 093 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy on BSG and Burn Notice. [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:56:53 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy on BSG and Burn Notice. On Monday 13 August 2007 02:28, Cheryl wrote: > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy on BSG and Burn Notice. > > > Well, it occurred to me a little while ago to wonder if, in the process > > of creating human replicas for espionage/sabotage purposes, the Cylons > > weren't > > inadvertently creating human-like machines (I don't mean just physically, > > but > > mentally, too). (I imagine this question causes spymasters of > > 'sleeper' agents many sleepless nights, btw :) > > It is a wonder why the Cylons thought it was even necessary to create > "humanoids" at all to spy on the humans. They have superior tecnology and > despite the humans efforts to shield their computers I am sure the Cylons > could have compromised them since they are after all the most advanced > computers of all time. I don't know about that. The technology in BSG (other than the ability to 'jump') is actually very much present-day - they have missiles, guns that fire bullets, nuclear weapons. No ray-guns or energy weapons, no teleports. I can't recall if they even have shields. The abilities of their fighter craft are not that different from what a Harrier 'jump jet' or a Sukhoi 29 could do (although of course their fighters do it in space - we have to allow BSG the latitude of pretending that small spacecraft 'fly' in space just like aircraft do in air, just as every other sci-fi series does). So, what's to say the Cylons could techno-magically 'read' the humans' computers? And don't forget, to do that, even if they could somehow detect the EMR, they'd need to have some snooper craft in close proximity to the fleet, but itself undetected. So, when the fleet jumps, how would the snooper craft stay with it? Much more reliable from that point of view to have a snooper _in_ the fleet, able to signal back when required. > I actually think the Cylons suffer fom > Ponochioitist. They really want to be human and want to be accepted and > possibly loved by their creators. They hate the humans because they have > been rejected by their creator and like Frankenstein's monster has turned > against them. There could be something in that. Part of their motivation, certainly, though probably buried deep within the Cylon subconscious. > In fact their revenge not only has lead them to war against > humans but to try to relace them. They see themselves as better than > humans not only intellectually superior but also morally superior. The > Cylons have unfortunately done such a good job at making themselves humans > that they have also developed some of the humans more pesky human traits - > some love obsessively, some become religious mystics, others develope > empathy and compassion for others. All these qualities are not something > machines should have. Yes but, as I think I said, when a system gets complex enough, it starts to develop non-obvious characteristics. Take the earth's atmosphere - in principle a simple mix of gases. Except that its effects are so complex and subtle that no-one can predict exactly what the weather will be like tomorrow, and not at all for three weeks away. So, any machine that is made to be that complex will very likely have 'emergent properties' that are not exactly predictable from what was built into it. Umm, take computers. Like the one on your desktop. In theory, they should be *precisely* predictable under all circumstances. That's what digital is all about. It should be possible to say with 100% accuracy what motherboard A and CPU B and video card C and video driver D will do when confronted with video game E. But in fact, the only way to see how fast DeathStar 6 runs on your machine (or even if it will) is to try it. Because, at the limit, (and especially when some gamer has it overclocked to the max), highly non-digital things like the inductance and impedance of the circuits can start to delay the digits on their way through the circuits to the point where some get lost on the way. So even if anyone (or anything) could *understand* all the workings of your PC, it could not guarantee that the results would be exactly as predicted. As PC servicemen know only too well. And this is for mass-produced and intended-to-be-exactly-like-all-the-other-units bits of hardware! Now, on top of that, allow for the computer system to 'learn' from its experiences (as it has to in order to mimic a human - and, very possibly, would want to even in the absence of humans, in order to increase its effectiveness) - and considering that its experiences are, effectively, random - then how could you tell that computer from a 'real' one-off individual human being? So I think that, having made their spies _look_ human, and having given them learning ability as an essential in order to successfully pass as human - what the Cylons have done is created humans! > > I further wondered if Baltar-and-Six's child (don't spoil me, I've only > > seen > > to the end of Season 2!) might be the precursor of a hybrid race of > > Cylon/Humans that might eventually lead to an armistice between the two > > cultures. > > I won't spoil you but I think you find the Cylons in season will be more > interesting than the humans. You find season three very Cyloncentric in a > very good way. Hey, I find the Cylons in Season TWO more interesting than the humans, already! :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. 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