From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V7 #76 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, July 12 2007 Volume 07 : Number 076 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci On Wednesday 11 July 2007 07:19, Xena Torres wrote: > > At last, someone who DOESN'T think O&K were the root of all evil! > > (Or at least, the root of all that was said to be wrong about Season > > 5). > > HA HA HA! You know I love season five cr. Of course I do! > Other people hated season five > because it wasn't like other seasons. Well GOOD. That's the sign of a > good show - one that doesn't lose it's concept but can grow and > change. Yep - just as my favourite ep (Sin Trade) was a big departure in tone from all previous eps... > And let's all remember that Lucy and Rob threw one HELL of a big > wrench in the works. ;) > > But I think, actually, that O&K deserve neither the blame everyone > > heaps > > on them, or the credit that XT gives them. > > Check out the writing / teleplay credits for all the Season 5 eps > > (courtesy the Whoosh! Episode Guide)... > > Alex and Bob were producers in season five - I wasn't referring to > them as writers. :) Producers help with choosing a direction for the > season/series. Yes, in all fairness they were not the only producers > on the series, but Steve and Chris were on the way out. Yes, BUT - how much influence does the producer have, vs the director, and the writers? And, for that matter, the actors? For example, we know that a chunk of the end of Kindred Spirits was invented on set by Josh Becker (with, I suspect, an assist from Lucy). But this was exceptional (because the original script was way too dark and unuseable), not the normal situation. What I was really getting at was the selectivity and scapegoat attitude shown by some fans who just can't know who really had the most influence on any episode. > > Chris Manheim wrote 'Chakram' (I love it but many don't), Animal > > Attraction, Punch Lines, God Fearing Child (jointly with O&K), > > Eternal Bonds (another ep that gets frequently rubbished), Livia, > > and Eve. Way more eps than any other writer. > > Chris kicks ass and rules all - easily my fav writer on "Xena". I bow > to Chris. *bows* "Eve" is my fav ep of all time. :) And, oh look, > Chris so wrote most of the best eps for season five. "Eternal Bonds" > wasn't on my love or hate list, but it was the concept with Xena and > Ares that was getting old and tired for me, so I don't blame Chris for > that one. And the Gab/Joxer stuff was just AWESOME. :) Well, I'm okay with Chris (though I usually prefer RJ and RT). But that's not an invariable rule. In S5, I certainly liked Chakram (which is strange since I usually hate eps where Xena is 'helpless', but it was well done in that ep); and God Fearing Child. And I utterly loathe 'Gurkhan' which was by - surprise - RJ and RT. Which just shows that generalisations are risky. > > So - shouldn't we all be blaming the alleged shortcomings of S5 on > > Steve Sears and Chris Manheim? And if not, why not? ;) > > > :) Again - they were producers vs. writers. ;) But who's to say whether the producers or the writers were most to credit - or blame? > > If you include Herc Season 5 in that (the best Herc season IMO) > > then - (checks credits) yep, they were. > > Yes, season five in concept. Sadly, it wasn't all that great cause > they were still stuck with turkey Sorbo who can't act. HA HA HA! Well, I have to admit that my liking for Herc S5 has more to do with Nebula and Morrigan than with Herc. Not that I dislike Sorbo hugely as an actor, I don't find Herc intensely annoying (like early Joxer say), he's adequate without being brilliant. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:03:08 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 19:33 +1200, cr wrote: > > > > Alex and Bob were producers in season five - I wasn't referring to > > them as writers. :) Producers help with choosing a direction for the > > season/series. Yes, in all fairness they were not the only producers > > on the series, but Steve and Chris were on the way out. > > Yes, BUT - how much influence does the producer have, vs the director, > and the writers? And, for that matter, the actors? > > For example, we know that a chunk of the end of Kindred Spirits was > invented on set by Josh Becker (with, I suspect, an assist from Lucy). > But this was exceptional (because the original script was way too dark > and unuseable), not the normal situation. Curiously apropos of this - I've just recalled that, a few nights ago, my wife and cohorts were watching 'The Legend of Zorro' which, though it had a Cute Kid in it, didn't get _really_ sucky until the fight in the train. Well, in, on, and all over the train which was loaded with bottles of glyceryl trinitrate and was, of course, going at full speed, yet no-one fell off. One bottle exploded and a flying bit of debris flew ahead of the train and hit a turnout lever and switched the train to another line (yeah, right). Which of course had a stationary train a mile down it surrounded by people who all started screaming and running in circles (instead of just running away to a safe distance). Meanwhile, Cute Kid on Zorro's horse has got so far ahead of the train (!) that he can see the danger and ride down to throw another switch (that obviously NONE of the mob around the stationary train had noticed) and switch the runaway onto a loop track that we hadn't seen until that moment. Yeah, RIGHT. (Never mind that switching a train through a turnout at full speed would have it broadside all over the scenery...) ANYWAY, what makes this kinda relevant is the writers of this unmitigated turkey were - surprise - Orci and Kurtzmann. But then the executive producer was Steven Spielberg, who never fails to reduce everything to schmaltz or kitsch or schlock (or one of those wonderfully evocative gargly-sounding words that I don't really know the meaning of ) Soooo.... who do I blame, O&K or Steven Spielberg - or both? Or maybe it was the director. The fight on the train _may_ have been quite gripping and realistic as written on the page, until the director got carried away from watching too many Road Runner cartoons. Or maybe not. O&K may carefully have scripted the entire ludicrous farce line by line, or they may have been sabotaged by the director, or they may have been told 'this is what's _going_ to happen, just write it!' Personally, I choose to blame Steven pixie-dust Spielberg 'cos I dislike all his movies, they're all too quaint for my tastes, so this farce just fits right in there. But I expect I'm showing just as much unsubstantiated bias as the fans who blame O&K for everything.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:42:16 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci > Yes, BUT - how much influence does the producer have, vs the director, > and the writers? And, for that matter, the actors? An idea does not become a script until the producers say, "Go" to the writer. They also choose the writer who does it. A script does not shoot until it's approved by the producers. HOWEVER - I will point out that if you really want to 'blame' the FINAL say (creatively - this is minus the people who paid the bills - Studios USA by that point) was always Rob Tapert. But I think the man is a genius. :) > What I was really getting at was the selectivity and scapegoat attitude > shown by some fans who just can't know who really had the most influence on any episode. I completely agree. It's never 'one' person's 'fault'. It's the COLLECTIVE choice of the producing team. Even the executive producer doesn't blow in the room one morning say, "We're doing this this year" and then breeze out without comments from their producers - there's a reason they hire their producers after all. One person always heads a series, but it's a collective effort. > Well, I'm okay with Chris (though I usually prefer RJ and RT). Rob didn't actually write any eps. ;) He has plenty of "Story by" credits though. The best writers on Xena were the main three - Chris, RJ and Steve. RJ certainly wins for coolest characters (created Gab and Callisto). The season six writers all needed to be 86ed (referring mostly to the new guys, but even RJ who was the only original around delivered sub quality eps). Adam and Nora were also great - and they are currently doing a lovely job on Heroes as producers/writers. :) > Well, I have to admit that my liking for Herc S5 has more to do with > Nebula and Morrigan than with Herc. Gina Torres RULES ALL! :) Julie "XT" Ruffell www.bitchofrome.com "I don't do this to die. I do this to live." - Laura "Seconds" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:45:53 -0400 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] [Fwd: [MMXenanights] My Xena stuff at Ebay--Check it Out!!!] Hi, Julia (of Xena Night at Meow Mix fame) is auctioning off some of her X:WP merch. Passing along in case anyone's interested ... - -- =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [MMXenanights] My Xena stuff at Ebay--Check it Out!!! Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:17:37 -0400 From: JNoelG@aol.com Reply-To: MMXenanights@yahoogroups.com To: MMXenanights@yahoogroups.com Hey all! In case you're still into Xena merchandise, or know anyone who is, here's the url to my Xena crap at that's on auction now. I've got this birthday vacation planned that I need to finance... you know how it is. Check out my stuff!!! http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZxenatheheroQQhtZ-1 Do it now! Thanks, yo! Julia ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:47:36 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci > Personally, I choose to blame Steven pixie-dust Spielberg 'cos I dislike > all his movies, they're all too quaint for my tastes, so this farce just > fits right in there. But I expect I'm showing just as much > unsubstantiated bias as the fans who blame O&K for everything.... ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one who hated Spielberg. Overrated, talentless HACK! BOOOOOOOO! Actually, a scene like that can be influenced by a lot: writer, director, stunt team, producer, editor and the big final say - the studio. Also though Alex and Bob might have the writing credit - interesting movie writing tid-bit, there's generally a LOT more hands in the writing cookie jar than you see credited. Credit goes to the 'main' writers, but they certainly didn't write the entire thing by the time you have a shooting script. I wasn't expecting much from "Transformers" anyway (still haven't seen it). Seeing the design for Megatron along made me concerned..... he looked like a frelling bug! (from the design I saw). Transformers is only worth watching when you're watching the ORIGINAL cartoon anyway - and the Canadian made Beasties (AKA: Beast Wars in the USA) and the spin-off Beast Machines, by the amazing Mainframe team (who brought us ReBoot - one of the best series, like, EVER!) Julie "XT" Ruffell www.bitchofrome.com "I don't do this to die. I do this to live." - Laura "Seconds" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:25:25 -0500 From: LAS Subject: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci cr wrote: "Them Bones O&K / Steve Sears (as Buddy Williers)" cr, whey did steve sears list himself as "buddy williers?" lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:29:01 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] We warned them about Kurzman-Orci > cr, whey did steve sears list himself as "buddy williers?" Steve addressed this at a convention - the ep under went a re-write that wasn't his, so he didn't want to put his actual name on it - or something to that effect. :) Julie "XT" Ruffell www.bitchofrome.com "I don't do this to die. I do this to live." - Laura "Seconds" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V7 #76 *************************************