From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V7 #39 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, March 19 2007 Volume 07 : Number 039 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] RE: Creations ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Creation ["Jackie M. Young" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:43:43 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Creations I have been reading some of the posts and there are just a few points I would like to make: 1. Canal Room concert seating - Creations is putting in more chairs than just the booths. Standing room is going to be limited and apparently the majority of the seating will be chairs and booths. This appears to be a response to lot of us old gaffers who can't stand for 90 minutes. 2. Lucy and Renee do take audience questions even if they are shouted from the back of the room. The Cons are no way as large the 2001 convention and it is easier to take questions. However this year we had a lot of people who asked for hugs which is great for the hugee but boring for the rest of audience hence the often violated no hugging rule (also there is a slim danger that a nut case might try to hurt the hugger). 3. No personalization autograph rule which is really no long chatting with the signers rule. Lets figure this out if there are 4 signers and 100 people getting autographs and everyone chatted with each guest for one minute ("What's your name? Cheryl, C-H-E-R-Y-L." "That's not how you spell your name." "Yes it is." "No, its spelled with an S." "No it's not." "Yes it is." "No it's not." "Well then you are pronouncing it wrong (giggle)". My actual conversation with Vicky Pratt at a Cherry Hill con) it would take about 6 hours to sign the autographs and if after 5 hours one of the quests has to leave then there a bunch of po'ed people who are mad at Creations for "lying" to them about getting autographs. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:36:18 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Creation On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 04:02:34 -0700, "Xena Torres" wrote: >> If every actor performing at Creation cons asked that amount, that >> would add up pretty quickly. Plus, we can probably guess LL and >> ROC would be charging far more than what Mindy Clarke would charge. > >No, not really. Melinda Clarke is more well know than Renee right now. - --I was talking 2002 dinars, when I was trying to get Rob Trebor to speak here. XWP had only recently ended, so I believe ROC probably would've been the bigger star at that time. Not only that, but our local univ a few years ago invited some minor politician to speak to our student's association--this guy was going to charge them $20,000 as a speaking fee! I would say he was hardly as well-known as either LL or ROC, so you can imagine how much LL or ROC would charge to speak (I don't really know, but it would obviously be more than Mindy Clarke, and perhaps even more than this minor politician)! Add to that transportation fees, hotel accommodations, etc., FOR EACH SPEAKER, and you are talking a *lot* of $$ !! >> Add up all the costs of a venue that would hold 5,000 folks, the >> talent fees, the transportation fees, the employees' costs, and >> $360,000 - $600,000 is looking smaller and smaller. > >The $600,000 was for the gold seats only. That did not included preferred >and reg seating. Been there - run events - oh yeah, we are being ripped >the hell off. - --Yes, you are right. And I didn't add in the profits from selling their own merch, plus table fees for dealers. But we also don't know the venue fees and employees' costs, including transportation/hotel at the location. AND Creation is an ongoing business, so the Pasadena/Burbank cons bring in the big $$ and big stars, but when they travel out of town, they are not getting as large of a profit there, and these larger cons have to "pay for" the smaller cons where they might only break even or even lose money. Creation must have at least a dozen employees on its payroll; employee costs are the single-most expensive part of running a business. Sharon is not their only employee--they must have others running the other clubs, as well as a merchandising manager, a publicity manager, a warehouse manager, a membership manager, etc. And they're probably not earning the poverty wages I do--they're probably earning a decent-enough salary that they'd want to stay with the company for a long time (since many of them have). I didn't want to make this too personal, but there is that side of it, as well. Lori (wife of Adam, co-owner of Creation) told me when they came here for the Hawai'i con that Adam and Gary were HS buddies and they started the business after they graduated in the '70s. It's kinda family-run/owned (since many of them are related), so it has that sort of "feel" of disorganization as well as of human compassion (see Lilli's and my stories below). Remember when that large Sci-Fi corporation was going to buy them out a few years back? Lori told me Adam and Gary decided not to sell because they found out the new co. was just going to disregard the customers and not run the co. the way they had been used to. Believe me, it would've been easier for the two to sell and just become employees of another co., and not have to worry about the bottom line, but they decided to hang in there for the "greater good", and because they cared about the fans. ;) >Sorry, but Creation isn't the only game in town - compare their prices to >that of other events - Starfury, Dreamwerks, Comic Con - all with >speakers - comic con brings in more guests, including the entire casts of >movies, for a longer event. Blah, blah, blah. - --Yes, but these others don't bring in as big names or as many. And are they for-profit cos., or are they non-profit (as in clubs, etc.)? Are the stars charging them as large a speaking fee as Creation? Are their venue and company costs exactly the same? As for Meredith's point about the Canal Room costs, we don't know exactly what they have contracted with Creation for. Like any vendor, they can choose to charge higher or lower, depending on what they feel they can reasonably make. Like any contractor, they can ask the going rate or they can make their own demand. Maybe the Canal Room asked for a higher percentage, since LL is such a hot ticket--who knows? And, basically, LL isn't performing at any of these other cons--just at Creation's. So you either choose to pay to see her or you don't. But she's not going to be at Starfury, Comic Con, etc., sooooo.......?? Criticizing Creation is not going to change this fact. And we have to wonder--LL's such a level-headed, straightforward person. Would she actually agree to have a long-standing business relation with a scum-sucking co., if that's what Creation was? On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:26:32 -0700, "Xena Torres" wrote: >Sadly, you are wrong there. Try to ask for a personalized auto at a big >con. Creation Nazis will cut you off, and some guests reply, "I'm not >allowed to." - --I got a personalized auto from Meg Foster at the Creation con when she came to Hawai'i. In fact, Lori was sitting right there when I approached her and asked Meg to give me a call if she ever wanted to come out here again, on our club dollar. All the ST/XWP speakers were personalizing autos here in Hawai'i, since the attendance was so low. And, I got to ask Kevin Smith to come to Hawai'i and I got to tell Michael Hurst how much I enjoyed his work, all at the Pasadena con, so it just depends. The main reason at the Pasadena/Burbank cons for having rules about the autos is for the "greater good"; if everyone were to pause and chat and ask for personalized autos, the whole line would take twice as long as it does already, and it would take (more) *hours* to get through!! At smaller cons with smaller attendance, it's no prob. And like you said, many of the "employees" are actually volunteers at the cons. Sometimes, not being FT staff, they get a little "overly enthusiastic" trying to prove themselves. I've seen this many times, and usually pointing this out to Adam or Gary will straighten this out. Also, just respecting the jobs the volunteers have to do also helps. Like, if you're not being disorderly and not blocking anyone, running up to take a photo, then going back to your seat will not call out the police. On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 04:44:07 -0600, LAS wrote: >I'm hearing pain and anger and frustration over issues of greed, perhaps >of ethics, and whether we are right or wrong about our positions, - --For my part, it's not really anger; I think we're just having a good discussion about the logistics of running a con, like on the old Chakram list. But there is some frustration because it seems like both sides of the issue may not be getting recognition. No one wants to pay a lot of money, but I'm trying to show how that amount of money may be necessary in order to get the quality and quantity of the product that you want. Also, I'm trying to show how this amount of money is not out of line with what you're charged for similar products. I.e., there's the 2 1/2-day workshop on the neighbor islands I organized for $350/head; no big stars, only "volunteer entertainment". Then there's a 2 1/2-day con with big-name XWP stars and entertainment and autos for the same price. Which is the better value if you're a XWP fan? Or, for $20 in Hawai'i, you can get Meg Foster and some ST names. >But I will tell you a story, a personal story, of how both creation and >sharon on different occassions tried to help me with disability issues. - --Maybe Lilli's way is the way to go, as it all boils down to our personal experiences. Obviously, XT and Meredith haven't had good experiences, but Boetian and I have. I will say in my experience, I haven't seen any greed or malfeasance on the part of anyone at Creation--especially Lori or Adam or Gary. In fact, they were very generous when we were helping them organize the Hawai'i con--they gave us a club table at no charge, they let us sell our club stuff, and we of course didn't pay any admission. In addition, they put on a dinner with the speakers and invited all the volunteers to meet/greet the speakers, all at no charge to us. (I'm only a ST:TOS fan, so I'm not up on the later incarnations, but it was Tim Russ and Roxanne?? who were the guests at the dinner--they talked to each table and offered autos.) Adam was very receptive to discussion of future cons and future "partnerships". However--and I don't want to reveal too much personal info about Adam--my student worker in the office happened to help babysit his daughter while the con was going on. She loved the experience, but said Adam came back after the first day at the con "stressed out"......so there is a personal toll to running a business. All I can say is, there is a lot about con organization and liability that we, as hobbyists, don't know about. It's very easy to throw stones, when we're not the ones sitting in that glass house.......;P Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V7 #39 *************************************