From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V7 #38 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, March 16 2007 Volume 07 : Number 038 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Creations [LAS ] [chakram-refugees] creations [LAS ] [chakram-refugees] Hugin and Munin, Finris, and the Venus of Willendorf [] RE: [chakram-refugees] Hugin and Munin, Finris, and the Venus of Willendorf ["mirrordrum" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Creations "From a distance The world is blue and green, And the snow capped mountains white. From a distance, the ocean meets the sea. And the eagle takes to flight. From a distance, there is harmony, And it echoes through the land. It's the song of hope, it's the song of peace. It's the song of every woman and man." Thought I'd put these words in by judy gold, before I added my two cents to this discussion. I'm hearing pain and anger and frustration over issues of greed, perhaps of ethics, and whether we are right or wrong about our positions, we have several out here coming from people with experience in the business, and people who don't want to see the "xena people" -- producers of shows, trashed. But also don't want to be exploited by those same people for the sake of making money. And this business is about making money. I am one of them who doesn't like that kind of exploitation. I am also one of the voices who said, "way to go meredith," when she talked about overcharging by creation. I had to look at where my response came from in order to come back to this group and talk about it. without some of the anger. Yes, I agree there is overpricing. Jackie, I could be wrong about this. There could be trouble in the industry, and overheads and expenses that amount up to things we have no clue about with productions this big. Meredith, I saw you also have the expertise in the business and I respect that. So, where do we come together on this, and what is it we really want? Is it something we can ask sharon directly, and do that without attacking her? Or creation? Do we have any power to have our voices heard? Or do we just get to be frustrated? That is the problem here, when criticisms become attacks, and frustrations are taken out. There is a place where that show (xena) took such hold on my consciousness because it spoke about things I, and we, wanted and needed about ethics and peace and at the same time kicking butt, especially for women around power issues. Sometimes, I get frustrated when I believe the ethics of that show is not being followed through for the sake of money. And there is a place where that industry, the entertainment industry, is so big, that I believe it really has nothing to do with us, that there is so much money in it, and yet there are some folks in that industry who brought us xena. And yet I disagree with the ethics of that same culture where money is used to play out peoples' fantasies, and their hopes and dreams, and that money is made off of those dreams instead of sending us out into the world to make change and have real power. So that is some of where my frustration comes from. So I'VE been upset, and because some of that money is being used to create movies, by the same producers of xena, which I disagree with. So I have some prior resentment here. And I can't get to, can't afford, those things you all talk about even if I wanted to. Even $30 would be too much for me if I could get there (of course sliding fee for everything would be a gift). So I don't want to defend the industry; neither do I want to attack it. But I will tell you a story, a personal story, of how both creation and sharon on different occassions tried to help me with disability issues. Several years ago toward the end of the show I wanted to come out there and had some temporary money to do so. You all may recall I am disabled, chronic pain condition, spinal damage, and no way to sit up right in chairs. I actually called creation's office to find out how I would do this if I could; and the man who runs the whole shebang, he and I actually talked about it; they were willing to bring a COUCH down into the main show area for me to sit, if I found a way to come. Which I didn't. but it opened up the door of possibility and personal caring, even in that big an industry. And another time when renee o'connor was performing shakespeare in the park in L.A. I really wanted to do that. Again, I was disabled, didn't have resources to set this up for myself, and asked sharon for help. She didn't know me from eve, except for our discussions on the internet. And she personally was willing to pick me up at the airport if I could get out there, and find a way to get me transported to the park. That's love. I didn't get to do this because I didn't have enough other resources with people, places to stay, and money, but it was a gift having people go that far with me to make this work. I wish the industry, for the sakes of our hopes and dreams, allowed all of us, enabled all of us, for financial and disability and all other reasons to come to these things to share what we can share. Places to stay other than expensive hotels; a sliding fee scale for those of us who are poor; and making it a community thing accessible to everyone. In fact, I wish everyone who had the money could chip in for those of us who have never been to a convention, have never met any of you (I wish I could hook names to faces), need disability access; and wish I could participate in a way other than the internet. But that is a wish. It is also a possibility. lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:29:39 -0600 From: LAS Subject: [chakram-refugees] creations Wow, xt, heavy. I mean I didn't know all that stuff was going on at cons. It's a shame, really. There are alots of us out here who wish we could go to cons. But, aside from people on list whom we love, there are shannigans out there. I suppose what I was saying my last post was that money is the deal. Of course, if the fans weren't willing to buy into this, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. Perhaps the word we are talking about here is consumerism. Which is really where I have so much difficulty with U.S. society, that this plays out in so many games. Like you I'm an artist, a watercolor and graphic artist. A friend of mine, who is a latino radical activist artist who cares deeply for all of us in the community, especially on the "outskirts," said to me last year that he realized what was important for people to focus on now was what made them hopeful. What art makes me hopeful. What art do I do that makes me hopeful. How to I decide what in the world to focus any of my energies on that helps me feel that, know that. Do the con's do that for those of you on this list who go to the conventions? I guess that is the question I am raising here, which I've been raising for a while: whether buying xena cd's, ordering t-shirts, finding people to go out and see...if this all makes you hopeful. There are musical concerts out there of performers I wish I could see, and I would not want to pay $125 to see them. This might be like baseball players (I'm a former ball player who loves the game) and the biggest complaint is that players are getting paid millions of dollars and the point isn't the game any more. Or the joy of being a player or fan. It's become about money. So that is consumerism. It sounds like some of the performers who go to the cons aren't into buying into the consumerism so much that they get controlled over what they do at the cons. That's great. Buy lots of stuff at cons....does it make our lives better? I have a friend, she and I are star trek fans from way back, and don't have the money to buy the stuff that's been up for auction. Which you may have heard about. She said, sarcastically, something like, wish I had that kind of money to be purshasing something for $30,000. I'm not sure I'd ever want to, or that she really does, though I believe it's about everyone wanting a "piece of the action," a chance to belong to something that was so important that it made our lives meaningful. But I want to make my own life meaningful. Not have it depend on the stars, or a show that is now over. I want to be connected to YOU. If going to a con with other people, or getting to see/hear a star will make my life more meaningful, would inspire me, I would love to see them, maybe once or twice but don't need to do that all the time...then that's something I might want to do. I would love to hear barbra streisand, you know. So XT, I'm angry too, because it seems like despite the fact that I have a couple t-shirts, would love to see/meet some of the fans, would be neat to know who/what lucy lawless is like in person so I can put a real face on this personality...I can't afford to even buy a calendar now. I'd rather buy food. As we used to say back in the 70's....can ya dig it? Oh, and one more thought.....consumerism to me is like alcoholism. It is an addiction. Like drugs or alcohol or chocolate (what I still struggle with) ....the best definition I've heard of addiction was what we do to help ourselves not notice how bad we feel. I wonder sometimes if the game being played here is an alcoholism game. This isn't about us feeling bad about ourselves having these addictions. It's whether someone is playing on our feelings to rely on that as a way to get money out of us. I have some real problems about that. Glbt bars is a great example. It has been one of the few ways in the past for glbt folks to socialize, and the result is that lots of people have made money off of that oppression. So the point is what helps uf get out of the addictions, out of the oppressions, to be and feel powerful and good about our lives. I LOVE that lucy lawless, such as she is, is such an ally to the glbt community. It might help us to know that there are other ways to support glbt folk by not supporting alcoholism, though that can be a personal decision that people make for themselves. Again, what makes us feel good about ourselves? What makes us, allows us, to be the loving, lovable, people we are rather than playing into our addictions? that's about all i want to do on this. lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:54:38 -0400 From: richan@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Hugin and Munin, Finris, and the Venus of Willendorf Today my class was covering Norse Mythology and "Beowulf." I decided to use the "Return of the Valkyrie" arc to make a couple of points a bit clearer. As I related Odin's prophecy given to him by Volva the sybil, I too realized a thing or two or three or.... 1) The prophecy throws Odin into a depression. The vision costs him an eye which is replaced by two Ravens, Hugin and Munin. As they symbolize thought and memory, I thought it was appropriate that the lock that Beowulf cast down in front of Xena was done as Hugin and Munin. And so another part of Xena's past is unlocked and her memories begin to flow. 2) The cave in the first flash back is bound with a chain as well as the raven lock which harkens back to the story of Fenris, the world devouring wolf, being first bound in a cage then breaking free as a show of strength. And now the cave in the "Return of the Valkyrie" arc holds Grendel's dam who also breaks free. 3) In his depression over realizing that the nine worlds are are going to be destroyed at Ragnarok, Odin impales himself upon a tree. At this point since Hugin and Munin are in play he should be blinded in one eye. TPTB either forgot this or chose not portray this. 4) Xena replaces Grunhilda as Odin's Valkyrie first in command. They begin to go at it. This is as it should be as Norse Mythology is dualistic in nature, order vs. chaos. In fact the Aesir, the warrior gods, fought the Vanir, the fertility gods, over this and finally came to an agreement or truce. Marriages between the two sets of gods even took place. This would be the ideal solution to occur in all the worlds to prevent Ragnarok. This culminates with Grunhilda asking Odin who's world view was he going to embrace order or chaos? 5) So the question is who symbolizes order in the story and who symbolizes chaos? Given the fact that Grunhilda was not as intent as Xena in gathering warriors together for Ragnarok as Xena Grunhilda must in the Vanir camp, a fertility Valkyrie. Xena then is in the Aesir camp. I then thought of "Star Trek 2: the Wrath of Khan" at this point. The Klingons, Norsemen like themselves, are unnerved by Carolyn Marcus' research into the Genesis effect. (I see a Carolyn Marcus/Grunhilda connection.) Bones was not too happy about the Genesis effect either, saying that it involved destuction first then creation. This is the same scenario that Odin prepares for, collecting worthy warriors to fight on the day of Ragnarok, the day of the Genesis effect. Here it is then: the warrior gods represent order and the fertility gods represent chaos. And Xena truly does help Odin find his "way." 6) There is no number 6. 7) In "The 13th Warrior," which is based on Beowulf, the Vikings represent order and the warrior gods and the Neanderthals represent chaos and the Vanir. This is underscored by the discovery of a "Venus of Willendorf" like fertility token. 8) In Edgar Allen Poe's poem "The Raven" it's Munin that's doing all that damn tapping and rapping at the chamber of memory door. A few thoughts humbly submitted, Richan - -----Original Message----- From: spri0037@tc.umn.edu To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 3:44 AM Subject: [chakram-refugees] Creations "From a distance The world is blue and green, And the snow capped mountains white. From a distance, the ocean meets the sea. And the eagle takes to flight. From a distance, there is harmony, And it echoes through the land. It's the song of hope, it's the song of peace. It's the song of every woman and man." Thought I'd put these words in by judy gold, before I added my two cents to this discussion. I'm hearing pain and anger and frustration over issues of greed, perhaps of ethics, and whether we are right or wrong about our positions, we have several out here coming from people with experience in the business, and people who don't want to see the "xena people" -- producers of shows, trashed. But also don't want to be exploited by those same people for the sake of making money. And this business is about making money. I am one of them who doesn't like that kind of exploitation. I am also one of the voices who said, "way to go meredith," when she talked about overcharging by creation. I had to look at where my response came from in order to come back to this group and talk about it. without some of the anger. Yes, I agree there is overpricing. Jackie, I could be wrong about this. There could be trouble in the industry, and overheads and expenses that amount up to things we have no clue about with productions this big. Meredith, I saw you also have the expertise in the business and I respect that. So, where do we come together on this, and what is it we really want? Is it something we can ask sharon directly, and do that without attacking her? Or creation? Do we have any power to have our voices heard? Or do we just get to be frustrated? That is the problem here, when criticisms become attacks, and frustrations are taken out. There is a place where that show (xena) took such hold on my consciousness because it spoke about things I, and we, wanted and needed about ethics and peace and at the same time kicking butt, especially for women around power issues. Sometimes, I get frustrated when I believe the ethics of that show is not being followed through for the sake of money. And there is a place where that industry, the entertainment industry, is so big, that I believe it really has nothing to do with us, that there is so much money in it, and yet there are some folks in that industry who brought us xena. And yet I disagree with the ethics of that same culture where money is used to play out peoples' fantasies, and their hopes and dreams, and that money is made off of those dreams instead of sending us out into the world to make change and have real power. So that is some of where my frustration comes from. So I'VE been upset, and because some of that money is being used to create movies, by the same producers of xena, which I disagree with. So I have some prior resentment here. And I can't get to, can't afford, those things you all talk about even if I wanted to. Even $30 would be too much for me if I could get there (of course sliding fee for everything would be a gift). So I don't want to defend the industry; neither do I want to attack it. But I will tell you a story, a personal story, of how both creation and sharon on different occassions tried to help me with disability issues. Several years ago toward the end of the show I wanted to come out there and had some temporary money to do so. You all may recall I am disabled, chronic pain condition, spinal damage, and no way to sit up right in chairs. I actually called creation's office to find out how I would do this if I could; and the man who runs the whole shebang, he and I actually talked about it; they were willing to bring a COUCH down into the main show area for me to sit, if I found a way to come. Which I didn't. but it opened up the door of possibility and personal caring, even in that big an industry. And another time when renee o'connor was performing shakespeare in the park in L.A. I really wanted to do that. Again, I was disabled, didn't have resources to set this up for myself, and asked sharon for help. She didn't know me from eve, except for our discussions on the internet. And she personally was willing to pick me up at the airport if I could get out there, and find a way to get me transported to the park. That's love. I didn't get to do this because I didn't have enough other resources with people, places to stay, and money, but it was a gift having people go that far with me to make this work. I wish the industry, for the sakes of our hopes and dreams, allowed all of us, enabled all of us, for financial and disability and all other reasons to come to these things to share what we can share. Places to stay other than expensive hotels; a sliding fee scale for those of us who are poor; and making it a community thing accessible to everyone. In fact, I wish everyone who had the money could chip in for those of us who have never been to a convention, have never met any of you (I wish I could hook names to faces), need disability access; and wish I could participate in a way other than the internet. But that is a wish. It is also a possibility. lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:46:35 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Hugin and Munin, Finris, and the Venus of Willendorf this is very wonderful. a true harkening [hearkening?] back to the chakram list of old. i really enjoyed it but i did get a bit confused starting in 4 and going on from there partly b/c i'm not a trekkie and partly b/c of general ignorance regarding that of which whereof you speak. all the hugger and mugger [sic] stuff. if *only* it weren't the season of march madness when my eyes are a bit wonky from watching hoops. i wonder if you could say a bit more about the fertility, warrior, order and chaos part of it. i couldn't tell which you were saying represented order and which chaos according to the mythology and i couldn't quite follow your argument in re: xena and grinhilda--wasn't it grinhilda rather than grunhilda? it was grinhilda the monster/valkyrie and brunhilda and the burning ring of fire i believe. when i have a minute, i'll look into these issues a bit. interesting stuff that may have been talked about back in season 6 but if so i don't remember it. which really doesn't mean much. thanks for posting, richan! :) md - -----Original Message----- From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of richan@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:55 PM To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: [chakram-refugees] Hugin and Munin, Finris, and the Venus of Willendorf Today my class was covering Norse Mythology and "Beowulf." I decided to use the "Return of the Valkyrie" arc to make a couple of points a bit clearer. As I related Odin's prophecy given to him by Volva the sybil, I too realized a thing or two or three or.... 1) The prophecy throws Odin into a depression. The vision costs him an eye which is replaced by two Ravens, Hugin and Munin. As they symbolize thought and memory, I thought it was appropriate that the lock that Beowulf cast down in front of Xena was done as Hugin and Munin. And so another part of Xena's past is unlocked and her memories begin to flow. 2) The cave in the first flash back is bound with a chain as well as the raven lock which harkens back to the story of Fenris, the world devouring wolf, being first bound in a cage then breaking free as a show of strength. And now the cave in the "Return of the Valkyrie" arc holds Grendel's dam who also breaks free. 3) In his depression over realizing that the nine worlds are are going to be destroyed at Ragnarok, Odin impales himself upon a tree. At this point since Hugin and Munin are in play he should be blinded in one eye. TPTB either forgot this or chose not portray this. 4) Xena replaces Grunhilda as Odin's Valkyrie first in command. They begin to go at it. This is as it should be as Norse Mythology is dualistic in nature, order vs. chaos. In fact the Aesir, the warrior gods, fought the Vanir, the fertility gods, over this and finally came to an agreement or truce. Marriages between the two sets of gods even took place. This would be the ideal solution to occur in all the worlds to prevent Ragnarok. This culminates with Grunhilda asking Odin who's world view was he going to embrace order or chaos? 5) So the question is who symbolizes order in the story and who symbolizes chaos? Given the fact that Grunhilda was not as intent as Xena in gathering warriors together for Ragnarok as Xena Grunhilda must in the Vanir camp, a fertility Valkyrie. Xena then is in the Aesir camp. I then thought of "Star Trek 2: the Wrath of Khan" at this point. The Klingons, Norsemen like themselves, are unnerved by Carolyn Marcus' research into the Genesis effect. (I see a Carolyn Marcus/Grunhilda connection.) Bones was not too happy about the Genesis effect either, saying that it involved destuction first then creation. This is the same scenario that Odin prepares for, collecting worthy warriors to fight on the day of Ragnarok, the day of the Genesis effect. Here it is then: the warrior gods represent order and the fertility gods represent chaos. And Xena truly does help Odin find his "way." 6) There is no number 6. 7) In "The 13th Warrior," which is based on Beowulf, the Vikings represent order and the warrior gods and the Neanderthals represent chaos and the Vanir. This is underscored by the discovery of a "Venus of Willendorf" like fertility token. 8) In Edgar Allen Poe's poem "The Raven" it's Munin that's doing all that damn tapping and rapping at the chamber of memory door. A few thoughts humbly submitted, Richan - -----Original Message----- From: spri0037@tc.umn.edu To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 3:44 AM Subject: [chakram-refugees] Creations "From a distance The world is blue and green, And the snow capped mountains white. From a distance, the ocean meets the sea. And the eagle takes to flight. From a distance, there is harmony, And it echoes through the land. It's the song of hope, it's the song of peace. It's the song of every woman and man." Thought I'd put these words in by judy gold, before I added my two cents to this discussion. I'm hearing pain and anger and frustration over issues of greed, perhaps of ethics, and whether we are right or wrong about our positions, we have several out here coming from people with experience in the business, and people who don't want to see the "xena people" -- producers of shows, trashed. But also don't want to be exploited by those same people for the sake of making money. And this business is about making money. I am one of them who doesn't like that kind of exploitation. I am also one of the voices who said, "way to go meredith," when she talked about overcharging by creation. I had to look at where my response came from in order to come back to this group and talk about it. without some of the anger. Yes, I agree there is overpricing. Jackie, I could be wrong about this. There could be trouble in the industry, and overheads and expenses that amount up to things we have no clue about with productions this big. Meredith, I saw you also have the expertise in the business and I respect that. So, where do we come together on this, and what is it we really want? Is it something we can ask sharon directly, and do that without attacking her? Or creation? Do we have any power to have our voices heard? Or do we just get to be frustrated? That is the problem here, when criticisms become attacks, and frustrations are taken out. There is a place where that show (xena) took such hold on my consciousness because it spoke about things I, and we, wanted and needed about ethics and peace and at the same time kicking butt, especially for women around power issues. Sometimes, I get frustrated when I believe the ethics of that show is not being followed through for the sake of money. And there is a place where that industry, the entertainment industry, is so big, that I believe it really has nothing to do with us, that there is so much money in it, and yet there are some folks in that industry who brought us xena. And yet I disagree with the ethics of that same culture where money is used to play out peoples' fantasies, and their hopes and dreams, and that money is made off of those dreams instead of sending us out into the world to make change and have real power. So that is some of where my frustration comes from. So I'VE been upset, and because some of that money is being used to create movies, by the same producers of xena, which I disagree with. So I have some prior resentment here. And I can't get to, can't afford, those things you all talk about even if I wanted to. Even $30 would be too much for me if I could get there (of course sliding fee for everything would be a gift). So I don't want to defend the industry; neither do I want to attack it. But I will tell you a story, a personal story, of how both creation and sharon on different occassions tried to help me with disability issues. Several years ago toward the end of the show I wanted to come out there and had some temporary money to do so. You all may recall I am disabled, chronic pain condition, spinal damage, and no way to sit up right in chairs. I actually called creation's office to find out how I would do this if I could; and the man who runs the whole shebang, he and I actually talked about it; they were willing to bring a COUCH down into the main show area for me to sit, if I found a way to come. Which I didn't. but it opened up the door of possibility and personal caring, even in that big an industry. And another time when renee o'connor was performing shakespeare in the park in L.A. I really wanted to do that. Again, I was disabled, didn't have resources to set this up for myself, and asked sharon for help. She didn't know me from eve, except for our discussions on the internet. And she personally was willing to pick me up at the airport if I could get out there, and find a way to get me transported to the park. That's love. I didn't get to do this because I didn't have enough other resources with people, places to stay, and money, but it was a gift having people go that far with me to make this work. I wish the industry, for the sakes of our hopes and dreams, allowed all of us, enabled all of us, for financial and disability and all other reasons to come to these things to share what we can share. Places to stay other than expensive hotels; a sliding fee scale for those of us who are poor; and making it a community thing accessible to everyone. In fact, I wish everyone who had the money could chip in for those of us who have never been to a convention, have never met any of you (I wish I could hook names to faces), need disability access; and wish I could participate in a way other than the internet. But that is a wish. It is also a possibility. lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V7 #38 *************************************