From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V6 #43 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, February 16 2006 Volume 06 : Number 043 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Buying Lucy's BSG Eps [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] [cr - orcon ] RE: [chakram-refugees] ["ribaud" ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Legacy ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:09:49 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Buying Lucy's BSG Eps In a message dated 2/11/2006 9:39:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > >Oh, great! That means I won't be missing anything, if I don't include > >podcasts among the gazillion new techno "wonders" on my list of Things I > >Should Experience But Probably Never Will. > > > >-- Ife > > > And you complain about all the stuff you have to buy as a Lucy fan. IPods > are the Barbies of the 00s. They have all these little accessories. You > can buy them little "jackets" of different styles and colors, lots of > headphone styles to choose from, all sorts of little addendums to plug > into them and play with--make 'em flashlights, radio transmitters, radio > receivers, damn, the things you can buy for them are endless! > LOL! Yes, my niece got a "house" for her IPod as a gift. And I went to a party the other night where the DJ could plug an IPod into the playback equipment. I pray they don't come up with Xena-themed packaging. Or that I'm sufficiently over my obsession if they do. "Get your own Xena IPod! Yes! In the image of the Warrior Princess herself. Incorporating the Xena battle cry. Chakram headphones. A whip-like chord. Best of all, you can sit her on a speaker system shaped like Argo!" Gods. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:09:47 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] In a message dated 2/12/2006 10:35:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, richan@aol.com wrote: > > >Isaac Asimov dealt with "The Greater Good" in his robot series with the > >the Zeroth law: > > > >Zeroth Law: A robot may not injure humanity or, through inaction, allow > >humanity to come to harm. > > > >Following the zeroth law is not without it risks though. R. Giskard > >Reventlov, R for robot, was the first robot in the series to attempt it. > >Trying to apply it damaged his positronic brain. Later on in the series > >another robot, R. Daneel, is able to follow the Zeroth Law with out > >damage. How does this affect us? Symbolically we are the robots. How > >does this affect Xena and Gabrielle? I would like to suggest that Xena > >is somewhat like R. Giskard in that both suffer psycological damage > >trying to carry out the Zeroth law. Gabrielle and R. Daneel, on the > >other hand, are both fully affective not to mention effective in > >carrying out the Zeroth Law. > > But of course, *I* would say Xena has an enormous will. And applies her > own free will to maintain her quest for atonement. Which is essentially > spending her whole life doing this. And she has always believed that we > make our own destiny through the choices we make regardless of what our > society or expectations of others for us are. > > However, I can see where this monolithic obsession with correcting her > mistakes can almost pre-empt her free will for making any other choice > than to do just what she's doing. > > Nice slant on this question. KT I agree with KT about Xena's will. However, I'm not sure I see her quest for atonement as "monolithic." I saw her as very practical and judicious in choosing which battles to fight. In some cases the motivation was personally inspired (e.g., Caesar, Callisto, Njara). In other cases, particularly during S4, she was initially willing to walk away -- e.g., DEBT II, DAUGHTER OF POMIRA, CRUSADER (after she found out what Njara was like but before Njara said she was keeping Gabby), at the beginning of PAST IMPERFECT. I certainly didn't see her quest taking precedence over the safety of those she cared about. Would she have helped the nomads in LEGACY if she'd gotten there after they'd whacked off Gabrielle's head? I'm also not understanding how Xena was "damaged" relatative to the Zeroth Law. Seems to me any "damage" came during her earlier period of doing the opposite -- routinely killing for sport. As to Gabrielle, I'm not sure I'd call her certainty or idealism as inherently effective -- e.g., trying to save Hope or Ming T'ien. Not only did her "affect" get in the way of thinking things through, but she and others might have died as a result if Xena wasn't there to deal with Gabrielle's mistakes. I actually think Gabrielle suffered a lot more than Xena where Zeroth's Law is concerned -- unless I'm not getting what it's all about. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:27:54 +1300 From: cr - orcon Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ooh, a nice meaty arg... err, discussion to dive into... Actually, I just found myself saying 'Me too' to most of KT's comments - so I snipped 'em instead so as not to transgress list rules too badly. It's one of those cultural things.... :) On Monday 13 February 2006 19:10, KTL wrote: > Hey, here's a real old one that I had to drop out of due to a heavy > workload. But I did want to reply to it. AND since it was so long ago, I > am keeping most of it intact. I saw that it took off into a long > discussion--but I'd like to reply to this one without looking at those > others first. > Cheryl: > > So when the Gabrielle accidently kills Korah the rational thing > > to do would be to tell Korah's father the truth; > KT: > No, because then he would HAVE to kill Gabrielle. As Xena realized. This > is totally analogous to the situation in Hooves and Harlots. Gabrielle was > supposed to kill Phantes for having killed Terrais. Because the Amazon > society had these exact same cultural requirement. Phantas was saved only > because Xena proved that he was innocent. At which point Melosa killed the > murderer of her sister. Happily on the battlefield so that Gabrielle did > not have to do it in cold blood. Quite so. The 'rational' course of action has to take into account all the circumstances, including the fact that people and their customs are usually _not_ very rational. To ignore their probable reaction is not rational, it's wishful thinking. I think Xena had it exactly right (and entirely rational :) - GABRIELLE: Xena, it's not complicated. It is simple b I killed Korah. XENA: Out here, the penalty for that is death. GABRIELLE: I accept that. XENA: Well, I don't. GABRIELLE: (whispers) Xena. XENA: What purpose would it serve? It can't bring Korah back now, can it GABRIELLE: Xena, that man out there deserves to know the truth. XENA: He thinks he does. He thinks the Romans did it. GABRIELLE: Did you tell them that? XENA: It was an accident. Let him believe the Romans did it. They have to fight them anyway. GABRIELLE: I can't lie about this. XENA: You don't have to lie. KAHINA: (calling from outside) Xena! XENA: (whispers to Gabrielle) Please, I beg you. Please! Don't say anything. ... but would Gabs listen? Nooooo.... > > the father would grieve but say accidents happen in war and let's get > > to kicking the Romans out of here in honor of my son. > > Do you know how Laurel and Hardy used to have their hats shoot up off > their heads and into the air when they were greatly surprised? Had I a > hat, it would be entering the stratosphere right now. Errrm, mine too. I think the chances of Tazere letting Gabs off the hook would be inconceivably remote for two very good reasons: 1: Both age-old custom and his own natural instincts would be to take revenge on Gabrielle - and what good reason is there to not? and 2: I don't think he'd stay leader of his tribe for very long. How could he continue to sit in judgement and hand out justice when he let the killer of his own son go unpunished - in contravention of the laws he was sworn to uphold? He would *have* to condemn Gabrielle, for the greater good (insofar as the maintenance of law and order in his tribe constituted 'good'). > > C: > > But none of this happens - Korah's father starts yelling for blood - > > blaming Kahina and threatening the alliance. Xena is trapped by the > > frenzy and lets everyone believe Korah was killed by the Romans. > > I wouldn't be surprised if Xena immediately realized that Korah's > heightened blood lust against the Romans because it was one of them who > killed his son, was just what was needed to have the tribes overcome their > enmity and work together. Which in turn was just what was needed to save > both tribes from the Romans. For a while at least. But again, when it > became a specific Roman who would be killed in Gabrielle's place, Xena had > to go to plan B. I still say that Xena could easily have persuaded them that the Roman prisoner they had wasn't the one. After all, she'd told them that she saw the tracks of a thousand men a mile wide. Tazere might still have killed the Roman on general principle, just because he was a Roman, of course. Oh, XT's transcripts are a mine of information, as always: A few of Kahinabs men enter with a Roman. KAHINA: He's the killer? NOMAD #1: Of course. We caught him near the water-hole. He tried to escape. See? (holds up the Romanbs spear) Korah's blood is still on it. KAHINA: Let's take him to Tazere. Let him make an example of him. XENA: Just because he's a Roman doesn't mean he's the killer, Kahina. KAHINA: I have all the proof I need right here. Tie him! We'll drag him into Tazere's camp! XENA: Hold it. To kill a man in a fight to protect your homeland is one thing, but to pick out a Roman at random and execute him for a crime he may not have committed, that is something else. KAHINA: If he didn't do it, someone just like him did. Come with us, Xena. You're one of us, now. OK. Xena could _easily_ have proved the Roman didn't do it - just compare his spear with Korah's wound. Of course, Tazere would probably think similarly to Kahina - 'someone just like him did' - and execute the guy on general principles. Come to that, the Romans weren't above killing hostages and enemy prisoners on occasion, either. But this raises another question - whose was the blood on the Roman's spear? That was never answered. > > Gabrielle is appalled by the lie but perhaps would have lived with > > it if Kahina wouldn't have decided to hand some hapless Roman soldier > > over to Korah's father. Then she tells the truth > > Yes and rightfully so. They can't let someone else die for Gabrielle's > horrid mistake. That would be even more senseless than Gabrielle being > murdered for it. Umm. So, who (or what) had the Roman just killed? (Blood on his spear, remember). And, what happened to him? Did they kill him anyway? > I just found that whole scene unlikely anyway-it doesn't ring true to me > that Gabrielle would stab someone in the back like that. Crash into him, > push him away, grab his arm, whatever. But to stab him. . . It just > doesn't sit right. YES, I know this is part of what the script is saying, > that Gabrielle's insecurity and inability to make appropriate split second > decisions not only in a life and death situation but even in deciding what > is a life and death situation is a real problem for her and oh, by the > way, for Xena. But certainly other scripts like the whole rift arc for > example, show Gabrielle making wrong, life-threatening-for-others > decisions and yet not embracing death in expiation for doing so. > > Most striking is her first try at killing Hope. She considers killing > herself for that. It's always tantalizing to me to wonder if she realizes > by then that Hope is truly her father's daughter and nothing of Gabrielle. > Because frankly, I just can't see Gabrielle killing her own child. But at > any rate, she does not accept that she needs to die for the mistakes she > made that led to Solon's death and to Xena almost dying in Chin. So, Korah is more important than Solan, Xena's only child (at the time of his death). Doesn't say much for the subtext, does it? Maybe that's twisting things a bit, but it doesn't explain why, even before the Roman is accused, Gabs seems ready to let herself be executed. Maybe she doesn't really think it'll happen to her.... > And/or > that she needs to die for killing her own child. Though IF it was her own > child one would think that someday the Furies might come riding after her, > if someone alerts them to what she did. > > However, after killing Hope in cold blood and after Ides when she kills a > whole bouquet of warriors (even if it was possibly just to buy Xena time > to get up), after taking up pointy weapons in season five and therefore > killing in battle a number of times, suddenly in season six she is unable > to kill Gurkhan for having killed her parents. Because, "If I kill > you--you win. I become like you." Y'know, I could just never follow that logic, ever. "I just killed a barbaric thug who murdered dozens of innocent people. That makes _me_ a barbaric thug who murders innocent people"? Hardly. Didn't swallow it with Gurkhan, didn't swallow it when Gabs tried to inflict it on Xena on behalf of Ming Tien. What makes Gurkhan more worthy than Brutus? Or the Romans in the courtyard in Ides? > I think the same thing applies > backwards-"If I let you kill me, you win. I become like you." I don't see > much difference here in letting this tribe kill her in cold blood out of > pure vengeance, without any salvation for others being accomplished > through her death. I don't see her buying that. Yes, I KNOW she's consumed > with guilt. In the past she's always lived with her guilt. Yeah, but what she's hoping will happen (maybe subconsciously) is that Tazere will say 'Oh well, accidents happen in war and let's get to kicking the Romans out of here in honour of my son'. And we thought she'd returned to reality by the end of Season Four.... ;) > > but Kahina had the option of > > saying well that's awful but let's jst keep this between the three of us > > because we need Xena to lead the alliance and we'll figure something out. > > Again, she is totally not likely to do that since in her society, it is a > sacred duty to avenge the death of a family member. And that is what she > accepts. So strongly that she will also obviously if not help, at least > not interfere with the vengeance of the grieving father. Thus defying Xena > and making an enemy of her. Even though she's been waiting for her for > years to come save her tribe. Powerful stuff these cultural rules. And if Kahina did feel like helping a cover-up for political reasons - what are the odds of it leaking out? (Seeing as how Gabrielle's as leaky as a sieve on the subject). *If* Kahina helped cover it up, and it leaked, it would probably mean war between her tribe and Tazere's. She may well have felt that preserving the alliance was even more important than having Xena lead it. And - when Tazere heard they caught a Roman, he's going to wonder how Kahina could be so sure the Roman didn't do it. Or he's going to want to grill the Roman (at the very least) just in case. At which point we're back to square one with Gabby.... > > She doesn't do that instead her code of honor demands that she turn > > Gabrielle over for bedouine justice ... not to mention common sense and practical politics... On a quite different note, one thing I found hard to credit was Xena digging Gabs out of the sand by hand in five seconds flat (or maybe the tribesmen who had been about to play polo with Gabs' head being totally distracted for the fifteen minutes it would actually have taken her). Maybe instant excavation is just another of Xena's many skills.... I think this message has gone on long enough.... Okay, Chuckles, let's cut it! Okay?! Outta here! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:10:15 -0600 From: "ribaud" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] I found one part of this note I have to comment on: > > In > > Gabrielle's mind Xena is a whole different matter - Xena's > > death would > > be a catastrophe for the greater good - Xena life is worth > > so much more > > than her own so she will always oppose Xena dying for some > > past misdeed. > > > > > > If that was true, then she'd be doing her best to talk Xena > into retiring > from her dangerous quest, rather than traveling along on it > and aiding and > abetting her. Why then didn't she take the chance that Xena > offered her > for them to stay with those Amazons in Kindred Spirits? Nope, > she and Xena > saddle up again at the end of it and leave the Amazons behind > again and > head off on Xena's quest for atonement yet again. And also, > as we saw in > many episodes when Gabrielle joins Xena in fighting against > great odds and > very specifically in FIN when the bluff is called, so to speak, she > accepts Xena's dying when it obviously does result in a greater good. > Whether for one person or many. I can't agree. The whole worth of Xena's life vis-`-vis the greater good *is* her dangerous quest -- that she is literally fighting (not a safe sport, that) for it. Even Gabrielle would see that, I think, though I grant she might argue about where the boundary to that territory lies. Lynn Ribaud ribaud@anl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:44:49 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Legacy KT wrote > > I just found that whole scene unlikely anyway-it doesn't ring true to me > that Gabrielle would stab someone in the back like that. Crash into him, > push him away, grab his arm, whatever. But to stab him. . . It just > doesn't sit right. YES, I know this is part of what the script is saying, > that Gabrielle's insecurity and inability to make appropriate split second > decisions not only in a life and death situation but even in deciding what > is a life and death situation is a real problem for her and oh, by the > way, for Xena. But certainly other scripts like the whole rift arc for > example, show Gabrielle making wrong, life-threatening-for-others > decisions and yet not embracing death in expiation for doing so. > Oddly enough I just saw Legacy again tonight and Gabrielle does not stab Korah in the back. She actually pushes him away from Xena. She stabs him when he turns towards her with his arm, which is holding the rolled up scroll, raised and she kills him in what she believes is self-defense. Given the circumstances Gabrielle is correct. If the scene has a problem it is that the talkative Korah is suddenly struck dumb - he should at lest yell out "Hey who's pushing me a round?" The other major problem I had was that most cultures have a way of dealing with accidental death. People who accidentally kill someone usually are not put to death - they usually must pay some kind of "blood money" to compensate the family. I think in this case the fact that Gabrielle is a stranger and the fact that Xena lied about Korah's death made Korah's father believe his son was murdered and not an accident victim. I know Xena is never wrong but in this case I think she let her fear for Gabrielle's safety made he make a major mistake in judgment. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V6 #43 *************************************