From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V6 #42 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, February 15 2006 Volume 06 : Number 042 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Buying Lucy's BSG Eps ["S. Wilson" [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:01:25 -0600 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Buying Lucy's BSG Eps At 11:27 PM 2/11/2006, KTL wrote: >>>PodCasts are commentaries on the show. As they are now, you download them >>>from the site and have to listen to them while watching the episode. On the >>>DVD, they are an alternative audio track. >> >>Oh, great! That means I won't be missing anything, if I don't include >>podcasts among the gazillion new techno "wonders" on my list of Things I >>Should Experience But Probably Never Will. >> >>-- Ife > > >And you complain about all the stuff you have to buy as a Lucy fan. IPods >are the Barbies of the 00s. They have all these little accessories. You >can buy them little "jackets" of different styles and colors, lots of >headphone styles to choose from, all sorts of little addendums to plug >into them and play with--make 'em flashlights, radio transmitters, radio >receivers, damn, the things you can buy for them are endless! > >KT HAHAHA!! That is some of the funniest stuff I've read in a long time. I am probably one of the last living techie type people who has not bought an iPod. But if your statement above holds true, I would buy one only to draw a mohawk and tattoos on it, use it as a fetch toy for the dog, then tape 20 bottle rockets to it to see how far it can fly. So I don't think I'll be buying an iPod. Yet. *eg* S. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:06:52 -0600 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fishsticks not Mrs. Pauls' but Mrs. Joxer's At 11:21 PM 2/11/2006, KTL wrote: >>So, in here very short time in this dreamland/alternate universe she was >>very effective in straightening out both her kids and her husband! >> >> >>Mark > > >And then she went home to Xena. Aw, what a seriously awesome statement. That just totally got me. I'm having a warm fuzzy moment here. Isn't that the greatest thing about the show? No matter where Gabrielle found herself, even when she found herself at serious odds with Xena, she always found her way back home to Xena. Nobody and nothin' could take that nervewracking little blonde kid from Xena's side. :) S. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:10:51 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Hey, here's a real old one that I had to drop out of due to a heavy workload. But I did want to reply to it. AND since it was so long ago, I am keeping most of it intact. I saw that it took off into a long discussion--but I'd like to reply to this one without looking at those others first. On Mon, 26 Dec 2005, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I'm sending this on the chakram. It's a good discussion. And just where were your Merry Christmas greetings, hmmmm? > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> KT: >> However, I gotta say there's no righteous or honorable ambiguity in >> this ep. Gabrielle was NOT dying for the Greater Good--that's nonsense. >> Of course Xena shouldn't have let her die. No one would be saved, no >> one would receive any real value in restitution (had Gabrielle become a >> slave in the household, to do desert boy's work, that might be >> different). ... Cheryl: > No I agree Gabrielle was not dying for the greater good, but my point in > my review was no body was acting for the greater good. New reply: Well, I would say that was because there IS no greater good in Gabrielle dying just because she made a mistake. Vengeance in terms of killing people in retribution for a death in your family, no matter what the circumstances, is a BAD social requirement. Yes, it exists in many cultures. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best practice to follow. It makes for generations long wars. C: In fact I said this episode was about what people would not give up for > the greater good. But then you need to have a Greater Good that a character is shown turning her back on. And we did not have that here. > > We can presume that in this episode the greater good would be defeating > the Romans and saving the Arab tribes from genocide. Which is just what Xena did. Despite Gabrielle not dying. Because Gabrielle dying or not dying was totally immaterial to that greater good issue. The means to do this would > be Xena leading an alliance between Kahina's tribe and Korah's tribe > against the Romans. Well, yes, which was what happened in this ep. So when the Gabrielle accidently kills Korah the rational thing > to do would be to tell Korah's father the truth; No, because then he would HAVE to kill Gabrielle. As Xena realized. This is totally analogous to the situation in Hooves and Harlots. Gabrielle was supposed to kill Phantes for having killed Terrais. Because the Amazon society had these exact same cultural requirement. Phantas was saved only because Xena proved that he was innocent. At which point Melosa killed the murderer of her sister. Happily on the battlefield so that Gabrielle did not have to do it in cold blood. the father would grieve but say accidents happen in war and let's get to > kicking the Romans out of here in honor of my son. Do you know how Laurel and Hardy used to have their hats shoot up off their heads and into the air when they were greatly surprised? Had I a hat, it would be entering the stratosphere right now. There is nothing in the script to show any possibility of this happening. He wasn't going to kill Gabrielle because she had lied. He was going to kill whomever had killed his son. Be the murderer the Roman or the Worldwide Wrestling Federation (WWF) female division contender. (AKA The Battling Bard of Poteidea). The killing was the offense, not the lying about it. The Roman was totally forgotten the minute they found out that Gabrielle was the murderer. And the greater good of forgetting vengeance, or even just delaying it and cooperating with his local enemy so that they had a chance to beat back the invading Romans was totally eclipsed by his immediate and urgent quest to avenge his son's death. C: But none of this happens - Korah's father starts yelling for blood - > blaming Kahina and threatening the alliance. Xena is trapped by the > frenzy and lets everyone believe Korah was killed by the Romans. I wouldn't be surprised if Xena immediately realized that Korah's heightened blood lust against the Romans because it was one of them who killed his son, was just what was needed to have the tribes overcome their enmity and work together. Which in turn was just what was needed to save both tribes from the Romans. For a while at least. But again, when it became a specific Roman who would be killed in Gabrielle's place, Xena had to go to plan B. Gabrielle is appalled by the lie but perhaps would have lived with > it if Kahina wouldn't have decided to hand some hapless Roman soldier over > to Korah's father. Then she tells the truth Yes and rightfully so. They can't let someone else die for Gabrielle's horrid mistake. That would be even more senseless than Gabrielle being murdered for it. I just found that whole scene unlikely anyway-it doesn't ring true to me that Gabrielle would stab someone in the back like that. Crash into him, push him away, grab his arm, whatever. But to stab him. . . It just doesn't sit right. YES, I know this is part of what the script is saying, that Gabrielle's insecurity and inability to make appropriate split second decisions not only in a life and death situation but even in deciding what is a life and death situation is a real problem for her and oh, by the way, for Xena. But certainly other scripts like the whole rift arc for example, show Gabrielle making wrong, life-threatening-for-others decisions and yet not embracing death in expiation for doing so. Most striking is her first try at killing Hope. She considers killing herself for that. It's always tantalizing to me to wonder if she realizes by then that Hope is truly her father's daughter and nothing of Gabrielle. Because frankly, I just can't see Gabrielle killing her own child. But at any rate, she does not accept that she needs to die for the mistakes she made that led to Solon's death and to Xena almost dying in Chin. And/or that she needs to die for killing her own child. Though IF it was her own child one would think that someday the Furies might come riding after her, if someone alerts them to what she did. However, after killing Hope in cold blood and after Ides when she kills a whole bouquet of warriors (even if it was possibly just to buy Xena time to get up), after taking up pointy weapons in season five and therefore killing in battle a number of times, suddenly in season six she is unable to kill Gurkhan for having killed her parents. Because, "If I kill you--you win. I become like you." I think the same thing applies backwards-"If I let you kill me, you win. I become like you." I don't see much difference here in letting this tribe kill her in cold blood out of pure vengeance, without any salvation for others being accomplished through her death. I don't see her buying that. Yes, I KNOW she's consumed with guilt. In the past she's always lived with her guilt. but Kahina had the option of > saying well that's awful but let's jst keep this between the three of us > because we need Xena to lead the alliance and we'll figure something out. Again, she is totally not likely to do that since in her society, it is a sacred duty to avenge the death of a family member. And that is what she accepts. So strongly that she will also obviously if not help, at least not interfere with the vengeance of the grieving father. Thus defying Xena and making an enemy of her. Even though she's been waiting for her for years to come save her tribe. Powerful stuff these cultural rules. > She doesn't do that instead her code of honor demands that she turn > Gabrielle over for bedouine justice Exactly. but again Korah's father also had the > option of accepting what happened as an accident and letting Gabrielle go But he never would. Just ain't gonna happen. As Xena well knows. > knowing they needed Xena's help. I think he wasn't all that convinced about Xena's worth. I don't see him getting all excited about her being there in the ep. But again, his society's mores bind him to one and only one course of action. Then Xena is forced to actually bring the > Romans down on the Arabs which wasn't very nice but solved the problem > of both saving Gabrielle and the Arabs despite both Gabrielle's and the > Arab's wshes. But this is exactly what the Arabs did want. To defeat the Romans. Which no matter how much they blustered, Xena realized they could only do together (since they'd never had a major win before). AND with Xena helping them they'd be much more likely to achieve that goal. > > So what we have here is that no one is considering the greater good. Except Xena. Who never lost sight of the goal of setting up an opportunity for the tribes to fight together to defeat the Romans. Despite any distraction from Gabrielle's total self-absorption with her longed for martyrdom. > Korah's father puts his grief and need for venegenace above the > well-being of his tribe. As his tribe expected him to do, heck DEMANDED him to do. And again, this is exactly my point. There is no greater good in Gabrielle dying. There is only a cultural rule that demands the death of the murderer. Which is believed to be a very strong inducement to not kill each other. (A very arguable point.) It might also be seen as a balance of power thing. But since Gabrielle is a stranger and not part of a local tribe, any concerns about not taking vengeance being seen as destroying the balance of power between tribes shouldn't signify. Letting her live is definitely a greater good. Because it saves the life of a good person who has spent the last five years fighting evil. But whether one is good or evil, or whether an action is a horrible mistake or not is immaterial under these rules. > Kahinia puts her own code honor above her tribe's well-being. Her tribe has the same rules, so I would say the same about her-she's acting exactly the way her culture demands she do. And you know anyway, it's just plain silly that Xena doesn't just grab the little blond kid, fight her way out of the tent, toss her over the saddle and ride off with her. That would have solved this problem very easily. However of course, Xena has already agreed to help them and if she ran off with Gabrielle, the tribes would still be in the same situation regarding Rome. The script does at least give a reason for Xena not just doing the above and leaving these guys in the lurch. >From the Whoosh transcript: X: "You got the fight you wanted. Stop complaining." X: "You're out of time and you're out of options. Now they know that you're here, they'll hunt you down unless you stop them." Kah [Scoffs]: "You expect us to trust you now? Why should we?" X: "You have no choice." G: "We could have ridden in the opposite direction." Taz: "Why didn't you?" G: "Tazir, your son's blood is on my hands, and it will be for as I walk this Earth. I can't change that-- but I _can_ help his people win their freedom. Maybe his death'll have some meaning then." X: "And I promised you that I'd help you defeat the Romans-- I keep my promises." Whoop, there it is! Xena not just stealing away with Gabrielle is sensibly explained at least. C: > Gabrielle's own guilt drives her to allow herself to be nearly killed for an > accident thus not only putting the Arab's cause in jeopardy but certainly > putting Xena to a great deal of trouble. But much less trouble than she put her to in Gurkhan. The vicious beating Xena suffered because of Gabrielle's lack of self-knowledge (along with lack of planning) was worse, in my opinion. In fact, Gurkhan is the second worst beating Xena gets in the series-only Indrajit's amputation of Xena's limbs in The Way is worse to me. > Xena has been forced to lie and But lying never bothers Xena when it serves a good purpose. Or the Greater Good. She lies fairly often to her enemies when scamming them. It's just another weapon in her arsenal. > then practically betray the Arabs No, what she did by pretending to agree to them killing Gabrielle put them all in one spot and gave them their first major battlefield victory over the Romans. As opposed to more or less successful guerilla actions. in order to save the person she most > values. The greater good is compromised all around. > No, because Xena's strategy stops the genocide. Which IS a Greater Good issue. Well it stops the genocide for the moment at least. And bloodies Rome's uh, Roman Nose. However, we must not forget the haboob's contribution. KT original post >> Gabrielle would never accede >> to a person having to die solely for vengeance. She barely makes that cut >> in FIN, when Xena staying dead results in 40,000 souls gaining their >> paradise. > Cheryl: > Yes you are right if it is Xena dying but she views herself differently. > For Gabrielle Korah's father is justified in punishing her, in her mind, > not just for Korah's death but also for her terrible lack of judgement. > The father and Gabrielle believe this is justice I just don't see that. HEY! I just this instant realized this is the ep where Gabrielle gives up. Damn, it was a furken epidemic that year! Gabrielle has never ever given up before. (Has she?) As I said before, even when she killed Hope in cold blood, she did not kill herself. Gabrielle does not believe that vengeance is justice. Yes, people should die for the greater good-but first a greater good has got to be present to die for it. - Xena sees it and the audience sees it as mindless vegenance. The > difference between justice annd vengenace can be very subjective - is > capital punishment justice or vengenace. When we execute a murderer is > society extracting justice for the victim or are we avenging his death? Since capital punishment is legal in America, at the moment it's both justice and vengeance. If we make it illegal, then it's neither. Because that's our society's rules. Also I think Gabrielle is at such a low point that she really doesn't > see her death as significant - her death does not affect the greater > good and may in this case be for the best. Exactly-her dying for a mistake is not a greater good issue precisely because it does not result in a good result. And again, I just don't see Gabrielle deep in her heart being the type of person who would accept than anyone, even herself, should die just for a mistake. It's so not her. In > Gabrielle's mind Xena is a whole different matter - Xena's death would > be a catastrophy for the greater good - Xena life is worth so much more > than her own so she will always oppose Xena dying for some past misdeed. >> If that was true, then she'd be doing her best to talk Xena into retiring from her dangerous quest, rather than traveling along on it and aiding and abetting her. Why then didn't she take the chance that Xena offered her for them to stay with those Amazons in Kindred Spirits? Nope, she and Xena saddle up again at the end of it and leave the Amazons behind again and head off on Xena's quest for atonement yet again. And also, as we saw in many episodes when Gabrielle joins Xena in fighting against great odds and very specifically in FIN when the bluff is called, so to speak, she accepts Xena's dying when it obviously does result in a greater good. Whether for one person or many. KT original post: >> This ep was part of season six's horridly boring, "Gabrielle wants to >> be a warrior but doesn't have the heart to be one >> hit-me-over-the-head-again-and-again-why-don't-ya-just-in-case-I-didn't-get- >> that, that was repeated endlessly in season six, in Gurkhan, in >> Helicon, in Abyss, in Path of Vengeance? (Not sure on that one--can't >> remember anything about that one except that the extraordinary Varia >> was in it.) > Cheryl: > Well Gabrielle has a much harder time accepting violence that Xena. > It's just a difference in personality. Xena has been in the killing > business much longer than Gabrielle and is use to it. Being a warrior > is a new idea for Gabrielle and it does take some getting use to. > Don't forget when a police officer kills some one in the line of duty > they are sent to counselors to deal with the aftermath. Soldiers often > have terrible reactions to the violence they witness long after they > return home from war. So let's give the liitle farm girl a break here if > she seems troubled the violence she sees and does. A good person will > be troubled by it - even Xena feels terrible guilt over what she has > done and she is no wimp. > I agree with all of the above. And Gabrielle's reactions to becoming a warrior is one of the biggest sub-plots of the series. Its effect on Xena feeds into her whole "things she's gotta make up" mind set. But for me, Xena's journey is far more interesting than Gabrielle's. That's my main grief with this ep (aside from how contrived it is.) It was just too Gab-centric to hold my attention. As were all the other "Gab wants to be a warrior but doesn't have the heart to be one." Sure, some people did indeed like these eps. As I've said, Season Six had something for everybody. And these eps were for gabfans. They just didn't hold my interst. And when the ep doesn't hold my interest, I start to see all kinds of odd and mysterious things about it. And even worse, be bothered by them. Like the main premise here being a total misapplication of one of the main themes of the series. KT original post >> >> And of course, Missy is a HUGE Gab fan, so this ep focused on the little > blond >> kid. > > Missy is a huge Gabfan but she is also a huge Xena fan. Her Gabrielle > character is used in her stories to give insight into Xena. Well, that's the way she's used in the show. Gabrielle is > the lens through which we see Xena Well, that's the way she's used in the show. - through Gabrielle we see a more > vulnerable Xena but also a more heroic Xena. Actually we see this through almost every person Xena interacts with on the show. In her writings we understand > what Xena's heroics cost her and how it affects her. Well, that's the way she's shown in the show. Missy also has very > dark side - in her stories very often the very people Xena and Gabrielle > save often don't appreciate what they have done or even shun them. > Well, that's the way they're shown in the show--more in the early eps perhaps. But in Missy's stories, we see a mostly tamed Xena who lives in Amphipolis, who lies abed in the morning grooving over her golden bond with her soulmate, who is domesticated beyond belief. As I've said in the past, I stopped reading Missy when there was a scene where Xena returns to Cyrene's tavern, (THE hottest lesbian bar in ancient Greece,) after scouting around somewhere in a raging rain storm. There's a bunch of Amazons in the bar who press Xena for the information she's gotten from her scouting trip. Xena starts to answer but Gabrielle stops her and orders her to get out of her wet things first, before she says one word. And Xena like a good little girl, meekly pads into the bedroom to change. Good gods! Is this any Xena you recognize? The Xena from the show would have glared at Gabrielle and ignored her. Or perhaps, glared at Gabrielle and ripped her clothes off and reported naked and dripping. If I were writing this scene in fanfic, I would have had Xena drop kick Gabrielle out the door so she could make the report without aggravation, IF she felt like making a report. Some fanfic authors would have had Xena first drag the little blond kid over her knee, pull down her "britches" and beat her butt bright red before drop kicking her out the door, where her hot little heinie would have turned the puddle where she achieved splash down into steam. I just don't dig a domesticated Xena. Stories about tomboys being tamed are legion, endless and trite. I can see a story like that many places and in many venues. A story of a female raging warrior on a mission that she refuses to give up for anybody or anything however, is compelling and thrilling. And it's exactly why I am so obsessed with Xena. And I don't see that Xena in Missy's stories. I was however THRILLED that Rob picked Missy to be the anointed one. Because of Missy's generous and graciously humble personality and level headedness. Missy is a very nice and down to earth woman. I shudder to think what that experiment might have been like if any number of other fanfic authors had been selected. Hoooooooo! KT original post: >> >> But, BUT, it was totally lame to me since the main plot point was so > glaringly >> bogus. The Greater Good was never just a concept--it was defined, it >> was concrete and it always meant a choice that resulted in making >> things better for the society as a whole, or for one individual. >> Cheryl: > But there is always conflict over what is the greater good. In Legacy > is the greater good served by lying about what has happened to Korah, Yes because them believing his death was due to a Roman unites the tribes. But there is no good result of Gabrielle dying for her mistake. is it served by letting Gabrielle die, or is it served by saving > Gabrielle even if it means bringing the Romans down on the Arabs. Yes because them believing his death was due to a Roman unites the tribes. But there is no good result of Gabrielle dying for her mistake. The Greater Good is not > always that easy to determine. Politics is often about competing ideas > about what is best for society and for the individual. We argue about > what is for the greater good all the time, is universal health insurance > best or the worst for society, Are you really asking? Grin. I would say that any health care is better than none myself. And yeah for me I would pay taxes to provide that for all citizens. are civil liberties or security more important, To possibly misquote and possibly misattribute, let me claim that I agree with Ben Franklin when he may have said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." are > tax cuts for the wealthy better than raising taxes on the wealthy or is it > the other way round. Depends on what you use the money for. And what the argument is about. Should one specific segment, those people over a certain economic level get special tax breaks? Why are second homes and business travel equal to medical costs and charitable donations in triggering tax breaks? I agree with you--these are not simple questions. But it's been a fun survey! Thanks! There is nothing easy or simple about the greater > good. > > CherylA > > But in the show the greater good was almost always pretty simple--it was most often about whom to kill. Not how to change society. EXCEPT for Bitter Suite, when vengeance is trompled on and forgiveness is the replacement. This is inherently a more simple, more very cut and dried black and white situation than talk about economic class perks and/or who's more important and gets more rewarded, the CEO or the people who literally work to produce the product. In Xena it's often as simple as, "We kill the bad guys to save the good guys." And Rome is ALWAYS the bad guys in Xena's universe. Grin. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V6 #42 *************************************