From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #304 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, December 28 2005 Volume 05 : Number 304 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] [meredith ] Re: [chakram-refugees] NZ TV waring for Two and a Half Men ["Laconia" ["Laconia" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:19:22 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] On Tuesday 27 December 2005 12:31, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I'm sending this on the chakram. It's a good discussion. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "KTL" > To: "Cheryl Ande" > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] > > > However, I gotta say there's no righteous or honorable ambiguity in this > > ep. > > Gabrielle was NOT dying for the Greater Good- No? Works for me.... (Sorry, my evil Gabiphobe streak couldn't resist that.... ) > > -that's nonsense. Of course > > Xena > > shouldn't have let her die. No one would be saved, no one would receive > > any > > real value in restitution (had Gabrielle become a slave in the household, > > to do > > desert boy's work, that might be different). ... > > No I agree Gabrielle was not dying for the greater good, but my point in my > review was no body was acting for the greater good. In fact I said this > episode was about what people would not give up for the greater good. > > We can presume that in this episode the greater good would be defeating the > Romans and saving the Arab tribes from genocide. The means to do this > would be Xena leading an alliance between Kahina's tribe and Korah's tribe > against the Romans. So when the Gabrielle accidently kills Korah the > rational thing to do would be to tell Korah's father the truth; the father > would grieve but say accidents happen in war and let's get to kicking the > Romans out of here in honor of my son. But none of this happens - Korah's > father starts yelling for blood - blaming Kahina and threatening the > alliance. Xena is trapped by the frenzy and lets everyone believe Korah > was killed by the Romans. Gabrielle is appalled by the lie but perhaps > would have lived with it if Kahina wouldn't have decided to hand some > hapless Roman soldier over to Korah's father. Then she tells the truth but > Kahina had the option of saying well that's awful but let's jst keep this > between the three of us because we need Xena to lead the alliance and we'll > figure something out. She doesn't do that instead her code of honor demands > that she turn Gabrielle over for bedouine justice but again Korah's father > also had the option of accepting what happened as an accident and letting > Gabrielle go knowing they needed Xena's help. Then Xena is forced to > actually bring the Romans down on the Arabs which wasn't very nice but > solved the problem of both saving Gabrielle and the Arabs despite both > Gabrielle's and the Arab's wshes. Well, Gabs screwed up by killing Desert Boy, but then she just had to go and make things worse by confessing. "Sorry, Xena, I'm going to derail your plan broadside across all tracks". Xena could probably have got the Roman off the hook - "Let's see his sword. He didn't do it, Desert Boy wasn't killed with this". So I just see it as Gabby indulging her tender conscience and her need to be punished for her sins, at the expense of everybody else. If she can't live with the consequences (and that includes rubbing salt into her wounded conscience if circumstances require) she shouldn't fool around with sharp pointy lethal weapons. Or be so trigger-happy. Howcome she couldn't have whacked him on the head with the hilt of one of her sais? I've had debates about Deliverer where it's been suggested that Gabs could have avoided killing Meridian. IMO that's unrealistic, it wasn't her fault in any way, she instinctively used the knife to defend herself and/or Khrafstar. But by 'Legacy', she should have got the hang of her fancy sais by now. > So what we have here is that no one is considering the greater good. > Korah's father puts his grief and need for venegenace above the well-being > of his tribe. Kahinia puts her own code honor above her tribe's > well-being. Gabrielle's own guilt drives her to allow herself to be nearly > killed for an accident thus not only putting the Arab's cause in jeopardy > but certainly putting Xena to a great deal of trouble. Xena has been > forced to lie and then practically betray the Arabs in order to save the > person she most values. The greater good is compromised all around. Well, Xena was considering the greater good (if by that we mean saving the Arabs from the Romans) - till Gabby put the hex on it. As usual... > > Gabrielle would never accede > > to a person having to die solely for vengeance. She barely makes that cut > > in > > FIN, when Xena staying dead results in 40,000 souls gaining their > > paradise. > > Yes you are right if it is Xena dying but she views herself differently. > For Gabrielle Korah's father is justified in punishing her, in her mind, > not just for Korah's death but also for her terrible lack of judgement. > The father and Gabrielle believe this is justice - Xena sees it and the > audience sees it as mindless vegenance. The difference between justice > annd vengenace can be very subjective - is capital punishment justice or > vengenace. When we execute a murderer is society extracting justice for > the victim or are we avenging his death? Also I think Gabrielle is at such > a low point that she really doesn't see her death as significant - her > death does not affect the greater good and may in this case be for the > best. In Gabrielle's mind Xena is a whole different matter - Xena's death > would be a catastrophy for the greater good - Xena life is worth so much > more than her own so she will always oppose Xena dying for some past > misdeed. Too bad if it sometimes came out like "Your conscience doesn't matter, Xena, *I* want you alive". Kind of an extension of Season 1 and 2 "Xena, you can't do this because I, the self-appointed guardian of your conscience, won't permit it". 'Scuse me, I've just been watching some Season 2 and it kinda sticks out.... > > This ep was part of season six's horridly boring, "Gabrielle wants to be > > a warrior but doesn't have the heart to be one" That's a KT line, all right ;) > hit-me-over-the-head-again-and-again-why-don't-ya-just-in-case-I-didn't-get >- that > > > that was repeated endlessly in season six, in Gurkhan, in Helicon, in > > Abyss, in > > Path of Vengeance? (Not sure on that one--can't remember anything about > > that > > one except that the extraordinary Varia was in it.) PoV - Gabs had a real big fight with Varia for Eve. She lost, but it wasn't through lack of 'heart', Varia was just a better fighter. > Well Gabrielle has a much harder time accepting violence that Xena. It's > just a difference in personality. Xena has been in the killing business > much longer than Gabrielle and is use to it. Being a warrior is a new idea > for Gabrielle and it does take some getting use to. Well, she'd had a whole season to get used to it... ever since Ides when she ran amuk. Xena and Amarice might have killed more Romans in the courtyard (depends how many of the Romans they knocked down were fatally wounded I guess) but Gabs' score was pretty impressive, and nowhere in that ep did I see her having pangs of conscience about it. I'm not complaining about that, I think most fans said 'at last!' ;) But then, in fallen Angel, Chakram, Purity, Back in the Bottle, God Fearing Child, Eternal Bonds I think, Amphipolis Under Siege (very definitely, she was leading the troops), Anthony & Cleopatra (again very definitely, I didn't notice her agonising over Brutus) - Gabs was busy fighting and presumably killing lotsa people. So she really should have been used to it by Legacy. > Don't forget when a > police officer kills some one in the line of duty they are sent to > counselors to deal with the aftermath. Soldiers often have terrible > reactions to the violence they witness long after they return home from > war. So let's give the liitle farm girl a break here if she seems troubled > the violence she sees and does. A good person will be troubled by it - > even Xena feels terrible guilt over what she has done and she is no wimp. Yeah, but she's done much worse things than Gabs. I think what we have here is the conflict between real life and fantasy. In real life, anyone who'd killed as many people as Xena would either be (a) a psychopath who wouldn't care - and who would be an utterly unlikeable person, or (b) they would either break down or they'd stop. Retire to a monastery or something. (Well, a Hestian temple in Xena's case I guess). Either way, it would be the end of the series. But then Xena of course is super-human, she can take it. > > And of course, Missy is a HUGE Gab fan, so this ep focused on the little > > blond kid. > > Missy is a huge Gabfan but she is also a huge Xena fan. Her Gabrielle > character is used in her stories to give insight into Xena. Gabrielle is > the lens through which we see Xena - through Gabrielle we see a more > vulnerable Xena but also a more heroic Xena. In her writings we understand > what Xena's heroics cost her and how it affects her. Missy also has very > dark side - in her stories very often the very people Xena and Gabrielle > save often don't appreciate what they have done or even shun them. Sometimes with reason. "Left a few bits out of those stories, didn't you?" - Kahina. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:33:13 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Hi, As this thread continues, don't forget to snip what you're not responding to!! The Digest folks will thank you. cr wrote: > she shouldn't fool around with sharp > pointy lethal weapons. Or be so trigger-happy. Howcome she couldn't have > whacked him on the head with the hilt of one of her sais? > > I've had debates about Deliverer where it's been suggested that Gabs could > have avoided killing Meridian. IMO that's unrealistic, it wasn't her fault > in any way, she instinctively used the knife to defend herself and/or > Khrafstar. But by 'Legacy', she should have got the hang of her fancy sais > by now. It was an ambush, and furthermore, it was in a blinding sandstorm. It's not that she didn't know how to use her sais by then, it's that she couldn't see what she was doing and honestly thought her life (and Xena's life) was in danger. Her guilt came from realizing what she had done and, I think, thinking to herself just that: "why didn't I just whack him on the head". I hope everyone had/is having good holidays! - -- =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:54:50 -0600 From: "Laconia" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] NZ TV waring for Two and a Half Men That's the one! **** - ----- Original Message ----- From: "NZJester" To: Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] NZ TV waring for Two and a Half Men > At 02:45 p.m. 24/12/2005 -0600, Laconia wrote: >>Tape it if you can. You may want to replay a certain scene a couple of >>times...! >> >>***** > > > Are you referring to the bit they show in the adverts of Lucy from behind > she says with bra or without then drops her bra and he says without > and that is the end of the clip > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Catch ya later > NZJester > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:23:30 -0600 From: "Laconia" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] I particularly agree with this part of your last paragraph. "Politics is often about competing ideas about what is best for society and for the individual." It's like the book Candide, which made the point that there is no such thing as "the best of all possible worlds," because an action that benefits one person may be terrible for someone else. Life is often a zero-sum game, much as we wish it weren't. ****** - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheryl Ande" To: ; "KTL" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] > I'm sending this on the chakram. It's a good discussion. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "KTL" > To: "Cheryl Ande" > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] > > >> >> However, I gotta say there's no righteous or honorable ambiguity in this > ep. >> Gabrielle was NOT dying for the Greater Good--that's nonsense. Of course > Xena >> shouldn't have let her die. No one would be saved, no one would receive > any >> real value in restitution (had Gabrielle become a slave in the household, > to do >> desert boy's work, that might be different). ... > No I agree Gabrielle was not dying for the greater good, but my point in > my > review was no body was acting for the greater good. In fact I said this > episode was about what people would not give up for the greater good. > > We can presume that in this episode the greater good would be defeating > the > Romans and saving the Arab tribes from genocide. The means to do this > would > be Xena leading an alliance between Kahina's tribe and Korah's tribe > against > the Romans. So when the Gabrielle accidently kills Korah the rational > thing > to do would be to tell Korah's father the truth; the father would grieve > but > say accidents happen in war and let's get to kicking the Romans out of > here > in honor of my son. But none of this happens - Korah's father starts > yelling for blood - blaming Kahina and threatening the alliance. Xena is > trapped by the frenzy and lets everyone believe Korah was killed by the > Romans. Gabrielle is appalled by the lie but perhaps would have lived > with > it if Kahina wouldn't have decided to hand some hapless Roman soldier over > to Korah's father. Then she tells the truth but Kahina had the option of > saying well that's awful but let's jst keep this between the three of us > because we need Xena to lead the alliance and we'll figure something out. > She doesn't do that instead her code of honor demands that she turn > Gabrielle over for bedouine justice but again Korah's father also had the > option of accepting what happened as an accident and letting Gabrielle go > knowing they needed Xena's help. Then Xena is forced to actually bring > the > Romans down on the Arabs which wasn't very nice but solved the problem of > both saving Gabrielle and the Arabs despite both Gabrielle's and the > Arab's > wshes. > > So what we have here is that no one is considering the greater good. > Korah's father puts his grief and need for venegenace above the well-being > of his tribe. Kahinia puts her own code honor above her tribe's > well-being. > Gabrielle's own guilt drives her to allow herself to be nearly killed for > an > accident thus not only putting the Arab's cause in jeopardy but certainly > putting Xena to a great deal of trouble. Xena has been forced to lie and > then practically betray the Arabs in order to save the person she most > values. The greater good is compromised all around. > >>Gabrielle would never accede >> to a person having to die solely for vengeance. She barely makes that cut > in >> FIN, when Xena staying dead results in 40,000 souls gaining their > paradise. > > Yes you are right if it is Xena dying but she views herself differently. > For Gabrielle Korah's father is justified in punishing her, in her mind, > not > just for Korah's death but also for her terrible lack of judgement. The > father and Gabrielle believe this is justice - Xena sees it and the > audience > sees it as mindless vegenance. The difference between justice annd > vengenace can be very subjective - is capital punishment justice or > vengenace. When we execute a murderer is society extracting justice for > the > victim or are we avenging his death? Also I think Gabrielle is at such a > low point that she really doesn't see her death as significant - her death > does not affect the greater good and may in this case be for the best. In > Gabrielle's mind Xena is a whole different matter - Xena's death would be > a > catastrophy for the greater good - Xena life is worth so much more than > her > own so she will always oppose Xena dying for some past misdeed. >> >> This ep was part of season six's horridly boring, "Gabrielle wants to be >> a >> warrior but doesn't have the heart to be one" >> > hit-me-over-the-head-again-and-again-why-don't-ya-just-in-case-I-didn't-get- > that >> that was repeated endlessly in season six, in Gurkhan, in Helicon, in > Abyss, in >> Path of Vengeance? (Not sure on that one--can't remember anything about > that >> one except that the extraordinary Varia was in it.) > > Well Gabrielle has a much harder time accepting violence that Xena. It's > just a difference in personality. Xena has been in the killing business > much longer than Gabrielle and is use to it. Being a warrior is a new > idea > for Gabrielle and it does take some getting use to. Don't forget when a > police officer kills some one in the line of duty they are sent to > counselors to deal with the aftermath. Soldiers often have terrible > reactions to the violence they witness long after they return home from > war. > So let's give the liitle farm girl a break here if she seems troubled the > violence she sees and does. A good person will be troubled by it - even > Xena feels terrible guilt over what she has done and she is no wimp. > >> >> And of course, Missy is a HUGE Gab fan, so this ep focused on the little > blond >> kid. > > Missy is a huge Gabfan but she is also a huge Xena fan. Her Gabrielle > character is used in her stories to give insight into Xena. Gabrielle is > the lens through which we see Xena - through Gabrielle we see a more > vulnerable Xena but also a more heroic Xena. In her writings we > understand > what Xena's heroics cost her and how it affects her. Missy also has very > dark side - in her stories very often the very people Xena and Gabrielle > save often don't appreciate what they have done or even shun them. > >> >> But, BUT, it was totally lame to me since the main plot point was so > glaringly >> bogus. The Greater Good was never just a concept--it was defined, it was >> concrete and it always meant a choice that resulted in making things > better for >> the society as a whole, or for one individual. >> > But there is always conflict over what is the greater good. In Legacy is > the greater good served by lying about what has happened to Korah, is it > served by letting Gabrielle die, or is it served by saving Gabrielle even > if > it means bringing the Romans down on the Arabs. The Greater Good is not > always that easy to determine. Politics is often about competing ideas > about what is best for society and for the individual. We argue about > what > is for the greater good all the time, is universal health insurance best > or > the worst for society, are civil liberties or security more important, are > tax cuts for the wealthy better than raising taxes on the wealthy or is it > the other way round. There is nothing easy or simple about the greater > good. > > CherylA > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #304 **************************************