From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #303 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, December 27 2005 Volume 05 : Number 303 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] [Lee Daley ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:31:34 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] I'm sending this on the chakram. It's a good discussion. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "KTL" To: "Cheryl Ande" Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] > > However, I gotta say there's no righteous or honorable ambiguity in this ep. > Gabrielle was NOT dying for the Greater Good--that's nonsense. Of course Xena > shouldn't have let her die. No one would be saved, no one would receive any > real value in restitution (had Gabrielle become a slave in the household, to do > desert boy's work, that might be different). ... No I agree Gabrielle was not dying for the greater good, but my point in my review was no body was acting for the greater good. In fact I said this episode was about what people would not give up for the greater good. We can presume that in this episode the greater good would be defeating the Romans and saving the Arab tribes from genocide. The means to do this would be Xena leading an alliance between Kahina's tribe and Korah's tribe against the Romans. So when the Gabrielle accidently kills Korah the rational thing to do would be to tell Korah's father the truth; the father would grieve but say accidents happen in war and let's get to kicking the Romans out of here in honor of my son. But none of this happens - Korah's father starts yelling for blood - blaming Kahina and threatening the alliance. Xena is trapped by the frenzy and lets everyone believe Korah was killed by the Romans. Gabrielle is appalled by the lie but perhaps would have lived with it if Kahina wouldn't have decided to hand some hapless Roman soldier over to Korah's father. Then she tells the truth but Kahina had the option of saying well that's awful but let's jst keep this between the three of us because we need Xena to lead the alliance and we'll figure something out. She doesn't do that instead her code of honor demands that she turn Gabrielle over for bedouine justice but again Korah's father also had the option of accepting what happened as an accident and letting Gabrielle go knowing they needed Xena's help. Then Xena is forced to actually bring the Romans down on the Arabs which wasn't very nice but solved the problem of both saving Gabrielle and the Arabs despite both Gabrielle's and the Arab's wshes. So what we have here is that no one is considering the greater good. Korah's father puts his grief and need for venegenace above the well-being of his tribe. Kahinia puts her own code honor above her tribe's well-being. Gabrielle's own guilt drives her to allow herself to be nearly killed for an accident thus not only putting the Arab's cause in jeopardy but certainly putting Xena to a great deal of trouble. Xena has been forced to lie and then practically betray the Arabs in order to save the person she most values. The greater good is compromised all around. >Gabrielle would never accede > to a person having to die solely for vengeance. She barely makes that cut in > FIN, when Xena staying dead results in 40,000 souls gaining their paradise. Yes you are right if it is Xena dying but she views herself differently. For Gabrielle Korah's father is justified in punishing her, in her mind, not just for Korah's death but also for her terrible lack of judgement. The father and Gabrielle believe this is justice - Xena sees it and the audience sees it as mindless vegenance. The difference between justice annd vengenace can be very subjective - is capital punishment justice or vengenace. When we execute a murderer is society extracting justice for the victim or are we avenging his death? Also I think Gabrielle is at such a low point that she really doesn't see her death as significant - her death does not affect the greater good and may in this case be for the best. In Gabrielle's mind Xena is a whole different matter - Xena's death would be a catastrophy for the greater good - Xena life is worth so much more than her own so she will always oppose Xena dying for some past misdeed. > > This ep was part of season six's horridly boring, "Gabrielle wants to be a > warrior but doesn't have the heart to be one" > hit-me-over-the-head-again-and-again-why-don't-ya-just-in-case-I-didn't-get- that > that was repeated endlessly in season six, in Gurkhan, in Helicon, in Abyss, in > Path of Vengeance? (Not sure on that one--can't remember anything about that > one except that the extraordinary Varia was in it.) Well Gabrielle has a much harder time accepting violence that Xena. It's just a difference in personality. Xena has been in the killing business much longer than Gabrielle and is use to it. Being a warrior is a new idea for Gabrielle and it does take some getting use to. Don't forget when a police officer kills some one in the line of duty they are sent to counselors to deal with the aftermath. Soldiers often have terrible reactions to the violence they witness long after they return home from war. So let's give the liitle farm girl a break here if she seems troubled the violence she sees and does. A good person will be troubled by it - even Xena feels terrible guilt over what she has done and she is no wimp. > > And of course, Missy is a HUGE Gab fan, so this ep focused on the little blond > kid. Missy is a huge Gabfan but she is also a huge Xena fan. Her Gabrielle character is used in her stories to give insight into Xena. Gabrielle is the lens through which we see Xena - through Gabrielle we see a more vulnerable Xena but also a more heroic Xena. In her writings we understand what Xena's heroics cost her and how it affects her. Missy also has very dark side - in her stories very often the very people Xena and Gabrielle save often don't appreciate what they have done or even shun them. > > But, BUT, it was totally lame to me since the main plot point was so glaringly > bogus. The Greater Good was never just a concept--it was defined, it was > concrete and it always meant a choice that resulted in making things better for > the society as a whole, or for one individual. > But there is always conflict over what is the greater good. In Legacy is the greater good served by lying about what has happened to Korah, is it served by letting Gabrielle die, or is it served by saving Gabrielle even if it means bringing the Romans down on the Arabs. The Greater Good is not always that easy to determine. Politics is often about competing ideas about what is best for society and for the individual. We argue about what is for the greater good all the time, is universal health insurance best or the worst for society, are civil liberties or security more important, are tax cuts for the wealthy better than raising taxes on the wealthy or is it the other way round. There is nothing easy or simple about the greater good. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 21:23:08 -0500 From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] At 06:31 PM 12/26/2005, Cheryl wrote BTW Happy Winter Solistics or Seasonal Potlatch to all! > The difference between justice and >vengenace can be very subjective - is capital punishment justice or >vengenace. When we execute a murderer is society extracting justice for the >victim or are we avenging his death? Conversely are we eliminating a danger to society, or sending a very strong message about acceptable behavior. Here in New Jersey, we HAVE capital punishment, but the form of execution seems to be "Old Age". >Don't forget when a >police officer kills some one in the line of duty they are sent to >counselors to deal with the aftermath. Soldiers often have terrible >reactions to the violence they witness long after they return home from war. It has been the case in the Wars or aftermath I've witnessed since WWII, it is only now that the military is actually doing some small thing about it. The Taboo about killing another human is strong. This is why the military makes a conscious effort to "dehumanize" the enemy. The enemy becomes a "target", no longer a person. This is also what scares Society about someone who would willfully violate the taboo, hence the need for the "Ultimate Punishment" >So let's give the liitle farm girl a break here if she seems troubled the >violence she sees and does. A good person will be troubled by it That I have to agree with. Though it seems in the end she has come to grips with it. > - even >Xena feels terrible guilt over what she has done and she is no wimp. But it doesn't seem to interfere with her trained reflexes. At some point a warrior has to assume she's "damned". Although we see some redemption about Xena following her "WAY". "The Greater Good" is a dangerous concept in general. The greater good may be served, by restricting health care to older persons with chronic health problems, to divert resources to infants and children. But the greater good might be best served by denying health care to severely ill children who will need care for the rest of their lives. It's hard to decide "the greatest good for the greatest number"! Thankfully none of use are in the position to make that decision. Enough philosophy! A healthy, happy and prosperous New Year to all of you. Lee Daley, Warrior Jester leedaley@optonline.net ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #303 **************************************