From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #210 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, August 21 2005 Volume 05 : Number 210 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question.... [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question.... [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] right of caste question...... [Lilli Sprintz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question...correction [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:51:41 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question.... On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:05, Mark B. wrote: > I was rewatching 'The Quest' for the first time in quite a while and was > puzzled by something that was said. I remember thinking about it > before, but don't recall if it was ever discussed. > > When the Amazons drop out of the trees and pay tribute to Xena's body, > they say that Velasca had challenged and killed Queen Melosa in combat. > But then they say that Gabrielle will be the queen, now that she is > back. If a ruling queen in challenged and killed, wouldn't that negate > any right of ascension by someone given the right of caste???? > > Mark Hmmm. Good point. I think the answer must go back to Hooves & Harlots. Xena challenged Melosa, but couldn't qualify. So Gabrielle challenged Melosa, and nominated ZXena as her champion (and Xena, of course, won). So, Gabrielle won by proxy. Now that would surely mean the Gabs becomes Amazon Queen in Melosa's place, right? And (quoting from XT's transcript): EPHINY "There will be no execution, by order of our new queen." The Amazons bow to Xena. (Hmm, looks like the Amazons were a bit confused about their constitutional rules, too ;) But obviously, the rule had changed hands. Next thing we see, Xena and Gabs are walking off into the sunset, with nothing more said about who's in charge of the Amazons. So, the logical assumption is, that Gabs appointed Melosa as regent in her absence. By challenging Melosa, Velasca therefore won the right to be regent, but she couldn't win the right to be queen as that was still held by Gabs. Does that help? cr ... no stone left unturned, no YAXI left unexplained.... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:37:59 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question.... >assumption is, that Gabs appointed Melosa as regent in her absence. >By challenging Melosa, Velasca therefore won the right to be regent, The Amazons on Xena never had the tile "regent" -- or countess, duchess or marchioness. They had only three titles -- queen, princess and shamaness. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:04:08 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question...... Mark said, "When the Amazons drop out of the trees and pay tribute to Xena's body, they say that Velasca had challenged and killed Queen Melosa in combat. But then they say that Gabrielle will be the queen, now that she is back. If a ruling queen in challenged and killed, wouldn't that negate any right of ascension by someone given the right of caste????" this is a Great question, Mark. made me do some research about the whole caste system, a word which is often attributed mostly to Hindu belief system in India, but which has other forms in other cultures throughout history, using other language. queenship/kingship and nobility lineages throughout history are a form of caste. in researching my own culture (Jewish) it is clear that certain duties - priesthood (Cohens), priest assitants (Levites) were all passed down through bloodlines. a friend who is Germanic Nordic from British Isles, the Anglo-Saxons, she said also passed down certain leadership and spiritual/religious duties through blood line. so the concept of "caste" here, i believe, is about a heirarchy in Amazon culture being passed down normally through birth, but which also has the ability to be passed down in another way - the right of caste. Sort of an assigning of bloodline. What i'm reading indicates is that responsibilities go along with caste, or position. and that the next person in line is still responsible for their....responsibilities when the person before them dies. it's as if Gabrielle had been Melosa's actual child. Melosa was dead, but when Gabrielle showed up, Gabrielle had to fill in Melosa's shoes, fullfill the same responsibilities as queen that Melosa had had. Which of course she was supported doing by enough of the Amazon tribe. It's possible that if the tribe had been more supportive of Velasca's leadership, they would not of even bothered considering Gabrielle the queen seen she had sort of abandoned them as a priority relationship. but enough of them didn't want Velasca, that they then got to bring up the "caste," or "hereditory" issues when Gabrielle showed up. But as i think of it, Mark, this is where you might be right (now that i've laid out all that prior information). it seems that Velasca would have had the same right to challenge Gabrielle as she had Melosa. .....hmmmmmmmmm. But she would have HAD to challenge Gabrielle in the same way. and she didn't. but the storyline again might have caused this not to happen. writers do what they want! meanwhile, if the story had been "real," we might wonder if Velasca had initially decided not to push her luck twice, when Gabrielle showed up, and was made queen. As with Hooves and Harlots, she might have had to fight Xena as Gabrielle's champion! Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:05:41 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question...... Mark said, "When the Amazons drop out of the trees and pay tribute to Xena's body, they say that Velasca had challenged and killed Queen Melosa in combat. But then they say that Gabrielle will be the queen, now that she is back. If a ruling queen in challenged and killed, wouldn't that negate any right of ascension by someone given the right of caste????" this is a Great question, Mark. made me do some research about the whole caste system, a word which is often attributed mostly to Hindu belief system in India, but which has other forms in other cultures throughout history, using other language. queenship/kingship and nobility lineages throughout history are a form of caste. in researching my own culture (Jewish) it is clear that certain duties - priesthood (Cohens), priest assitants (Levites) were all passed down through bloodlines. a friend who is Germanic Nordic from British Isles, the Anglo-Saxons, she said also passed down certain leadership and spiritual/religious duties through blood line. so the concept of "caste" here, i believe, is about a heirarchy in Amazon culture being passed down normally through birth, but which also has the ability to be passed down in another way - the right of caste. Sort of an assigning of bloodline. What i'm reading indicates is that responsibilities go along with caste, or position. and that the next person in line is still responsible for their....responsibilities when the person before them dies. it's as if Gabrielle had been Melosa's actual child. Melosa was dead, but when Gabrielle showed up, Gabrielle had to fill in Melosa's shoes, fullfill the same responsibilities as queen that Melosa had had. Which of course she was supported doing by enough of the Amazon tribe. It's possible that if the tribe had been more supportive of Velasca's leadership, they would not of even bothered considering Gabrielle the queen seen she had sort of abandoned them as a priority relationship. but enough of them didn't want Velasca, that they then got to bring up the "caste," or "hereditory" issues when Gabrielle showed up. But as i think of it, Mark, this is where you might be right (now that i've laid out all that prior information). it seems that Velasca would have had the same right to challenge Gabrielle as she had Melosa. .....hmmmmmmmmm. But she would have HAD to challenge Gabrielle in the same way. and she didn't. but the storyline again might have caused this not to happen. writers do what they want! meanwhile, if the story had been "real," we might wonder if Velasca had initially decided not to push her luck twice, when Gabrielle showed up, and was made queen. As with Hooves and Harlots, she might have had to fight Xena as Gabrielle's champion! for anyone wanting to read about Hinduism and caste from Hindus against the caste system, here is a great website. http://www.hindutva.org/castevedic.html Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:36 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question...correction I said in previous post, "we might wonder if Velasca had initially decided not to push her luck twice, when Gabrielle showed up, and was made queen. As with Hooves and Harlots, she might have had to fight Xena as Gabrielle's champion!" however, Xena was dead! so that wouldn't have happened, unless Gabrielle had chosen another champion like Ephiny rather than fight herself. however, i'll go with my first premise, that as the writers wrote the story, Velasca might not have wanted to push her luck a second time, at least initially, because of the overwhelming enthusiasm of so many of the Amazons for Melosa's heir having returned. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:33:38 -0500 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question Wow... lots of great responses -- of course I would have expected nothing less ! I had forgotten about H&H where Gabrielle defeats Melosa by proxy. A couple of inconsistencies -- plot lines or writer induced... Velasca referred to Gabrielle as "Princess" before the coronation so that would make me think that the defeat of Melosa [in H&H] was kind of put aside once she realized that X & G were just trying to prevent the Amazons and Centaurs from going to war. If Velasca legally defeat Melosa, should the return of Gabrielle meant that Gabrielle would have to challenge Velasca to get the title back, or Velasca would have to challenge Gabrielle [if the right of caste overrode the defeat of a queen in a challenge]? I think I'll go take some aspirin.... Mark Lilli Sprintz wrote: > I said in previous post, > "we might wonder if Velasca had initially decided not to push her luck > twice, when Gabrielle showed up, and was made queen. As with Hooves > and Harlots, she might have had to fight Xena as Gabrielle's champion!" > > however, Xena was dead! so that wouldn't have happened, unless > Gabrielle had chosen another champion like Ephiny rather than fight > herself. however, i'll go with my first premise, that as the writers > wrote the story, Velasca might not have wanted to push her luck a > second time, at least initially, because of the overwhelming > enthusiasm of so many of the Amazons for Melosa's heir having returned. > Lilli > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:52:17 -0500 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question > I think I'll go take some aspirin.... LOL! I think it all comes down to one thing: YAXI ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Bitch of Rome http://www.bitchofrome.com "Time to put you out of my misery." - Livia "Eve" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:49:31 -0500 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question.... > Next thing we see, Xena and Gabs are walking off into the sunset, with > nothing more said about who's in charge of the Amazons. So, the logical > assumption is, that Gabs appointed Melosa as regent in her absence. > > By challenging Melosa, Velasca therefore won the right to be regent, but she > couldn't win the right to be queen as that was still held by Gabs. You know, that actually makes PERFECT sense! LOL! Exactly the same when Ephiny dies and they go looking for Gabrielle. ("I'll only be queen in your absence.") BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Bitch of Rome http://www.bitchofrome.com "Time to put you out of my misery." - Livia "Eve" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:44:59 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question.... On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:37, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: > >assumption is, that Gabs appointed Melosa as regent in her absence. > >By challenging Melosa, Velasca therefore won the right to be regent, > > The Amazons on Xena never had the tile "regent" -- or countess, > duchess or marchioness. They had only three titles -- queen, > princess and shamaness. > > Boeotian I wasn't implying that the Amazons had such a title (though "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - because we never heard them use the words on screen, for example "general", or "troop commander", or similar, doesn't mean they didn't have them. In fact I'm sure teh Amazons, who seemed to love ceremony, would have invented quite a number of titles to go along with it). I was using 'regent' as a descriptive term - meaning, one who rules on behalf of the queen in her absence - which, I think, was the position held by Velasca. It undoubtedly and explicitly was the position held by Ephiny after the start of A Necessary Evil. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:48:03 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question...correction On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:26, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > I said in previous post, > "we might wonder if Velasca had initially decided not to push her luck > twice, when Gabrielle showed up, and was made queen. As with Hooves and > Harlots, she might have had to fight Xena as Gabrielle's champion!" > > however, Xena was dead! so that wouldn't have happened, unless > Gabrielle had chosen another champion like Ephiny rather than fight > herself. however, i'll go with my first premise, that as the writers > wrote the story, Velasca might not have wanted to push her luck a second > time, at least initially, because of the overwhelming enthusiasm of so > many of the Amazons for Melosa's heir having returned. > > Lilli I have the impression that Velasca was quite intelligent and cunning, and would wait until the right moment to make her move. As she did. She also, of course, tried doing it the easy way - by persuading Gabs - first. Entirely sensible, IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:55:49 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] right of caste question On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:33, Mark B. wrote: > Wow... lots of great responses -- of course I would have expected > nothing less ! > > I had forgotten about H&H where Gabrielle defeats Melosa by proxy. > > A couple of inconsistencies -- plot lines or writer induced... Velasca > referred to Gabrielle as "Princess" before the coronation so that would > make me think that the defeat of Melosa [in H&H] was kind of put aside > once she realized that X & G were just trying to prevent the Amazons and > Centaurs from going to war. As I said, I think (notwithstanding Ephiny's comment "By order of our new queen") that Gabs left Melosa to rule as regent in her place. This would mean that, though entitled to take the throne, Gabs had chosen not to do so at that time. Therefore, she was still Princess until such time as she was crowned Queen. > If Velasca legally defeat Melosa, should > the return of Gabrielle meant that Gabrielle would have to challenge > Velasca to get the title back, or Velasca would have to challenge > Gabrielle [if the right of caste overrode the defeat of a queen in a > challenge]? Since Melosa had lost the title of Queen (by being defeated by Gabs' champion), she was only regent. (Or, before Boeotian objects, whatever title the Amazons had for someone in her position ) So, Velasca, by defeating her, could only acquire that title. It was still subservient to Gabs' entitlement. So Velasca would have had to challenge Gabs, not the other way round. I can't see any inconsistencies there. > I think I'll go take some aspirin.... > Mark This stuff is easy! Try working out how Gabs could give her Right of Caste to Eve in a tribe where she had no titular standing :) (But we've been over that....) cr > Lilli Sprintz wrote: > > I said in previous post, > > "we might wonder if Velasca had initially decided not to push her luck > > twice, when Gabrielle showed up, and was made queen. As with Hooves > > and Harlots, she might have had to fight Xena as Gabrielle's champion!" > > > > however, Xena was dead! so that wouldn't have happened, unless > > Gabrielle had chosen another champion like Ephiny rather than fight > > herself. however, i'll go with my first premise, that as the writers > > wrote the story, Velasca might not have wanted to push her luck a > > second time, at least initially, because of the overwhelming > > enthusiasm of so many of the Amazons for Melosa's heir having returned. > > Lilli > > ========================================================= > > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > > ========================================================= > > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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