From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #192 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, July 31 2005 Volume 05 : Number 192 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Amazon succession... [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Amazon sucession ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] amazon succession [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Amazon sucession [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:33:20 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amazon succession... On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:46, Richan@aol.com wrote: > In the recent movie > "King Arthur" Samtian Roman axillaries remain in Briton and form the > "Knights of the Round Table." I always wondered who exactly those guys > were in "Gabrielle's Hope," They are Smartians. And as to whether Xena is > an Amazon--the sword in the stone recognizes her gene sequence as > Scythian/Amazon/Sarmatian. Talk about Amazon succession! > Richan Oh, NICE linkage! Cool! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:34:03 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Amazon sucession - ----- Original Message ----- > > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:16:14 +1200 > From: cr > Subject: [chakram-refugees] Amazon succession... .... > > Just to establish this better - leaders in brackets - > The Greek Amazons were first seen in Hooves & Harlots (Melosa, Ephiny), > then in The Quest (Velasca, Ephiny), then in Bitter Suite (Ephiny), then in > Endgame (Ephiny). They were next seen in Coming Home (Marga, Varia), > Dangerous Prey (Marga, Varia), then in Path of Vengeance (Varia) where the > tribes came together, and in Helicon. > > The Siberian Amazons were first seen in Sin Trade (Yakut, Cyane/Vicky Pratt), > then in Them Bones (Yakut), then in Lifeblood (Cyane/Shelley Edwards), which > showed where the first Cyane(/Selma Blair) came from. Then Kindred Spirits > (Cyane/Shelley Edwards), which also featured Morgan Reese Fairchild as Eris. > Next we saw, in Path of Vengeance, the tribes had come together and Eris had > succeeded to the title of Cyane (Amazon leaders had a very short shelf life!) > And the combined tribes continued together in Helicon (Varia, Cyane/Morgan > Reese Fairchild). > > Have I got that right so far? Yes but in Path of Vengeance there are a whole slew of Amazon queens - there was obviously an African tribe, a British tribe and what looked like a Polynesian tribe (g) but more likely an Asian tribe - all with there own queens. I assume Varia's tribe was not the same as Gabrielle's tribe which was Ephiny's tribe because Gabrielle was still considered a queen. > > So, the two tribes were quite distinct until Path of Vengeance. > > So.... how, in Lifeblood, could Gabby give her *Greek* Right of Caste that > she got in Hooves & Harlots, to Eve in the *Siberian* Amazon tribe? Hum - perhaps it works this way - if a wandering queen floats into your village she gets treated as a queen if you don't have an official queen or she is older, hence Gabrielle gets to be queen of the Siberian Amazons in Kindred Spirits - no one is too upset about this because she just wandered in and is expected to leave. As for the right of caste Gabby is just passing her rights on to Eve that are related to the Greek Amazons; what the Siberian Amazons are doing is holding the ceremony - having a party, passing out drinks, a chance to do a little dancing- that's all, nothing to do with them. In fact Eve's Amazon caste is never brought up again - no one ever refers to her as Amazon when she is grown. > > Answers on a postcard, please...... > > Incidentally, on another tack, I've always thought Xena was an Amazon - > certainly she merited Amazon status, even if the Amazons were remarkably > snobbish about not recognizing her as such, especially in the later seasons > - - I've found confirmation from an unexpected source - in The Quest - "Xena > was a true Amazon, even though she denied it" - said by an Amazon queen, no > less - Velasca. Xena is not an Amazon. I doubt if she would even want to be an Amazon. Frankly she doesn't seem to like the Amazon way of life, as she said in Kindred Spirits the communal stuff gets on her nerves. Xena is nothing if not the ultimate individualist - she doesn't play well with others and is not a joiner. She likes individual Amazons - Ephiny, Melosa - but I don't think she is particularly enamored with the Amazon culture - it would be too restrictive for her. In fact I don't think Gabrielle was all that fond of the Amazon culture - she never seemed to want to stick around. Like Xena, Gabrielle had a broader appreciation of other cultures and men, for that matter, to want to stay among the rather stodgy Amazons. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:43:18 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] amazon succession hi cr. it's great your tracking the actual village setup locations from the series. you might want to include Necessary Evil in your list of greek amazon episodes. Ephiny again, Velsaca, and Solari played by Jodie Dorday. Also Motherhood; that's right before Bitter Suite. Ephiny was in that one as well. that's the one where Hope appears as a grown child. in Lifeblood, you might want to include Claudia Black who played Karina, the leader of the amazon tribe in that past flashback. Black is one of my present favorite stars. she has thank heavens made the switch from the defunct Farscape, to STARGATE SG-1. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 03:11:16 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] amazon succession On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:43, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > hi cr. it's great your tracking the actual village setup locations from > the series. > you might want to include Necessary Evil in your list of greek amazon > episodes. Ephiny again, Velsaca, and Solari played by Jodie Dorday. Yes, I did look at the ep - one of my favourites, btw - I seem to recall it's the same village as in The Quest. (i.e. the 'same village' in the story, and the same vilage set on the ground). > Also Motherhood; that's right before Bitter Suite. Ephiny was in that > one as well. that's the one where Hope appears as a grown child. Errm, Maternal Instincts, I think you mean :) That was actually set in the Centaur village - I haven't looked carefully, but (off the top of my head) I'd guess it was the same village as the Amazon one of the time, just dressed differently. Worth a look, though. Did we ever see the Centaur village any other time? oh yes, Orphan of War. Was that the only other time, I can't remember. > in Lifeblood, you might want to include Claudia Black who played Karina, > the leader of the amazon tribe in that past flashback. Black is one of > my present favorite stars. she has thank heavens made the switch from > the defunct Farscape, to STARGATE SG-1. > > Lilli Well, I wasn't actually looking to make a list of Amazon episodes, or I would certainly have included the 'Amazon High' cast (and probably have to include Hercules and the Amazon Women, too). As you know I do rather like Amazon High. I have all of Farscape on DVD (except the PK Wars mini-series which is on the way). Claudia was the reason I started watching that, though I soon became engrossed with Zhaan, Chiana, Jool (see how irritating characters can grow on one? :) and Sikozu also.... I've seen one SG-1 ep - the one where CB first appears (remarkably like her first appearance in Farscape) though I still have hard feelings for SG-1 since it was to finance the purchase of SG-1 that the reviled Sci-Fi Network pulled the plug on Farscape.... Anyway, to deviate a little - a list of all Amazon episodes.... let's think - off the top of my head - Hercules and the Amazon Women * Hooves & Harlots ITADITH (Ephiny only) The Quest A Necessary Evil Prodigal Sister * (Ephiny, and Siri's renegade tribe) Maternal Instincts (Ephiny only) The Bitter Suite Sin Trade 1 & 2 Sky High * (Ephiny only) Endgame Them Bones Lyre Lyre (Amoria's Amazons) Lifeblood / Amazon High Kindred Spirits Coming Home Dangerous Prey Path of Vengeance Helicon Last of the Centaurs (Ephiny only) * = Herc eps. That's quite a lot. Come to think of it, if we include all known Amazons, I guess Alti was one so we add Between the Lines, Clones and When Fates Collide; Amarice was one (she truly was, I tell you!) so we add in Ides (is there anyone who objects to including Ides in any list? Good. I thought not ), Fallen Angel, Chakram and Animal Attraction. Oh yup, and there was some little blonde kid who was an Amazon and was in, now I come to think of it, most of the eps... I think I give up at this point. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 03:32:30 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Amazon sucession On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:34, Cheryl Ande wrote: (snip of cr's guesses re the Amazon tribes) > > And the combined tribes continued together in Helicon (Varia, > > Cyane/Morgan Reese Fairchild). > > > > Have I got that right so far? > > Yes but in Path of Vengeance there are a whole slew of Amazon queens - > there was obviously an African tribe, a British tribe and what looked like > a Polynesian tribe (g) but more likely an Asian tribe - all with there own > queens. I assume Varia's tribe was not the same as Gabrielle's tribe which > was Ephiny's tribe because Gabrielle was still considered a queen. Yes, I'm aware of that - five Amazon queens, therefore, as you say, five tribes. I personally think Varia's tribe *was* the same as Ephiny's tribe - - which is to say, we last saw Ephiny's tribe in Endgame when Gabs appointed Chilapa queen (or maybe regent, as Ephiny was). We first saw Varia's tribe in Coming Home, when Marga was queen. I've always assumed she was Chilapa's successor. The dialogue in Coming Home is a little ambiguous on the subject: MARGA We don't often have such welcome strangers on our land. Thank you. GABRIELLE We're glad we could help, but we're not strangers. VARIA Yeah. (looks at Eve) That one looks familiar. MARGA I am Marga, Queen of the Amazons. This is Varia, my second-in-command. XENA Xena, Gabrielle, Eve. MARGA No strangers indeed. Gabrielle, you are an Amazon queen yourself. This doesn't say Gabs is a queen of this tribe - but, if it's a different tribe, why would Marga immediately know Gabs' name? And, the question arises, if this *isn't* Gabs/Ephiny's old tribe, then, when the tribes come together in Path of Vengeance, where is it? Admittedly, the village in Dangerous Prey is a different one from Endgame (no village was seen in Coming Home). I just put that down to production convenience, since the Greek Amazon village had already mysteriously changed once already, between H&H and The Quest. But I can't find any definite 'proof' one way or the other. (There was also the renegade tribe in the Herc ep 'Prodigal Sister', but we never saw them in XWP). So, I think in XWP, we only ever came across two of them (at least, prior to their coming together in Path of Vengeance) - the Greek tribe and the Northern (Siberian) tribe. Oops, I'm wrong, there's also Amoria's amazons in Lyre Lyre, though since they're in Greece they may be a sub-tribe of Ephiny's bunch. > > So, the two tribes were quite distinct until Path of Vengeance. > > > > So.... how, in Lifeblood, could Gabby give her *Greek* Right of Caste > > that > > she got in Hooves & Harlots, to Eve in the *Siberian* Amazon tribe? > > Hum - perhaps it works this way - if a wandering queen floats into your > village she gets treated as a queen if you don't have an official queen or > she is older, hence Gabrielle gets to be queen of the Siberian Amazons in > Kindred Spirits - no one is too upset about this because she just wandered > in and is expected to leave. Ummm.... that would be a bit disconcerting and socially destabilising - if a visitor could arrive at short notice and preempt the power structure of the tribe. I don't think it's a socially viable answer. ("There's a ranking Queen heading this way" "I think a convenient accident had better happen before she makes it this far") Why would you elect a queen in the expectation she's going to leave, anyway? Nice try at a theory, though Also, by your theory, in Coming Home, Gabs would have outranked Queen Marga, being older and more senior.... constitutionally, all the queens since Chilapa would only be acting as regent in the absence of Gabs. But Gabs very evidently didn't outrank anybody much on that occasion. (Unless, of course, as you suggest, it's a different tribe). > As for the right of caste Gabby is just > passing her rights on to Eve that are related to the Greek Amazons; what > the Siberian Amazons are doing is holding the ceremony - having a party, > passing out drinks, a chance to do a little dancing- that's all, nothing to > do with them. Or as we in Kiwi society used to say, 'any excuse for a piss-up'. :) Errmm... well, as a way to resolve a rather intractable YAXI, I have to say that's very ingenious and it works, logically. (Even though, again, I find it a trifle unlikely socially). I think I'll have to adopt it as the only logical way out :) > In fact Eve's Amazon caste is never brought up again - no > one ever refers to her as Amazon when she is grown. They probably prefer not to talk about it I do find it rather ironic (you know how I love irony) that Velasca, Alti and Livia/Eve were all Amazons... high-ranking ones, no less, I think. By the way, another little query has arissed in my tiny mind, regarding this 'right of caste'. In H&H, Terreis passed it on to Gabs when she was about to die. I got the impression it was a rather important and fairly unique right - not held by too many individuals. Now, when Gabs became queen in The Quest, did she (so to speak) cash in her Right of Caste? That would not be inconsistent with her resumption of Queenhood in Endgame, since she hadn't abdicated in The Quest, just appointed Ephiny regent in her absence. But of course, if so, she surely wouldn't be able to pass it on to Eve in Lifeblood. But the next question that arises - by passing on her Right of Caste to Eve, surely that *would* count as abdication... so this brings up yet another YAXI** in Helicon, that Gabs would no longer qualify to lead the tribes. (If in fact she hadn't already abdicated by appointing Chilapa queen in Endgame... it wasn't made entirely clear in that ep whether Chilapa was in the same position as Velasca and Ephiny, i.e. regent, or whether Gabs had passed on all her constitutional powers.) (** Yes I know 'yet another YAXI' is tautological...) Of course, maybe the Amazons just made it all up as they went along.... ;) > > Answers on a postcard, please...... > > > > Incidentally, on another tack, I've always thought Xena was an Amazon - > > certainly she merited Amazon status, even if the Amazons were remarkably > > snobbish about not recognizing her as such, especially in the later > > seasons > > - - I've found confirmation from an unexpected source - in The Quest - > > "Xena > > was a true Amazon, even though she denied it" - said by an Amazon queen, > > no less - Velasca. > > Xena is not an Amazon. I doubt if she would even want to be an Amazon. Unless, possibly, she was leading them.... I didn't notice Velasca being particularly communal But then, it was possible to be an Amazon without being attached to a tribe - Gabs was. Amarice was (and before anyone brings up that awful bit of slander by the writers in Them Bones, I would say that Amarice more than qualified as a de facto Amazon warrior - and all the other Amazons accepted her credentials without question.) > Frankly she doesn't seem to like the Amazon way of life, as she said in > Kindred Spirits the communal stuff gets on her nerves. Xena is nothing if > not the ultimate individualist - she doesn't play well with others and is > not a joiner. I *knew* there was some reason I liked her :) > She likes individual Amazons - Ephiny, Melosa - but I don't > think she is particularly enamored with the Amazon culture - it would be > too restrictive for her. In fact I don't think Gabrielle was all that fond > of the Amazon culture - she never seemed to want to stick around. Like > Xena, Gabrielle had a broader appreciation of other cultures and men, for > that matter, to want to stay among the rather stodgy Amazons. > > CherylA Except in Kindred Spirits. But since you raise the point - yes, Xena and Gabs (most of the time) and Amarice too, preferred to do their own thing. Ephiny also seemed to wander off on her own into other adventures at times. Thanks for the discussion cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #192 **************************************