From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #182 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, July 21 2005 Volume 05 : Number 182 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats ["Mark B." ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats [Lilli Sprintz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats [Lee Daley ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:57:23 -0500 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats Lets see.... Lucy and bats... Cheryl and bats.... Coincidence... I think not! Mark Cheryl Ande wrote: >It looks like Lucy will be back at CBS with a new movie Vampire Bats (working >title). She will be reprising her role as Maddy Reardon. Now this is great >news but imagine my excitement when I discovered she will be at war with bats. >I hope she uses a sword on them (the Xena katana is very effective weapon but >Gabrielle's Amazon prop sword has a nice swing to it when waving it at bats). >I just can't wait - Lucy and BATS-wow. > >I hope we get a nice series of movies out of the Reardon character. It would >be great to have Lucy on TV on a more regular basis. > >CherylA >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:49:11 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny In a message dated 7/13/2005 12:37:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > We could attribute Evil Xena's behavior to Caesar, but a > >lot suggests that it was only a matter of time before she crossed the line > >into an area M'Lila might not have wanted to enter. > > > >-- Ife > > Yes, that's entirely possible. But when that happened, I'm sure that > M'Lila > would have been upfront with Xena about it. I don't think she would have > committed a tactical error ('betrayal'?) such as Gabs did in The Debt - > simply because she didn't share Gabs' naivete. > > I think she would have said to Xena, in effect, 'right, that's as far as I > go > - you'll have to go on without me'. > Yes, I agree with you there. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:49:15 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP In a message dated 7/13/2005 12:37:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > If you mean we're 'imposing' our idea of the chacky's properties on our own > > mental image of the chacky, then yeah. But to me, that's very similar to > what I mean by 'deduced' which I've already said might be influenced by our > own subjective predispositions. >> Okay, we're pretty much in synch on that. > >>Yes, precisely. We had a picture of the properties of the chacky, > >>including > >>the 'fact' that only Xena could throw / catch it, which were at variance > >>with > >>what Callisto did. >> > > > >So does that mean the "unwritten rule" got changed in your mind? Or just > >that the chaky broke an unwritten rule, but the rule didn't change? > > Yes, the 'rule' (which in this case might better be called 'properties') > changes a bit. Not a heck of a lot. In fact it's not so much that the > properties of the chacky (specifically, 'can only be caught by Xena') > changed, as that Callisto got added to the very special and limited group of > > 'people who can control the chacky' (which group previously only had one > member - Xena). > > So, yeah, the chacky's properties changed very slightly - but not a lot, > it's > not as if I concluded that anybody could control it. >> True, although Princess Diana has a go at it, though with questionable success.. > > >>>Afterwards, some viewers saw > >>>philosophical significance in the fact that someone else could "command" > >>>the chaky. Others (like myself) gave the chaky less signficance than > >>>before, because we now knew someone besides Xena could handle it. > >> > >>You thought it detracted from the chacky, I thought it added to > >>Callisto's stature. But either way, this atypical chacky behaviour was > >>significant, and only because we previously had a mental idea of what the > >>chacky could do, > >>which we had to adjust. >> > > > >Ah, so your saying the "mental idea" changed, but the "typical" behavior > >(unwritten rule) didn't? > > Umm, no, I'm not saying that. Whether I say 'mental idea' or 'rule' or > 'properties' or 'characteristics', for the purposes of the present > discussion > I mean the same thing. >> Okay. I thought you were making a distinction between what we perceived and what the chaky itself was doing. Mind you, I don't have a problem with that. I accept that the CGI was shown to be doing something in particular that we may have interpreted differently. > > >>>>The chacky's quite a good example simply because it is only seen in XWP > >>>>so its operating rules are unique to the series. *How* the chacky did > >>>>it was indeed debatable, but *what* it did was fairly consistent. >> > >>> > >>>But it's the interpretation of what we saw that we're debating, not the > >>>fact that it could bounce off, cut or fly above things. Even then, > >>>there was often a question in my mind as to whether the chaky had > >>>killed or or simply disabled some opponents. That's a key "what" > >>>unless you limit it to "the chaky knocked those soldiers down" and > >>>don't worry about whether they'd ever get up or not. > >> > >>Often it didn't matter, they were background ruffians, who just needed to > >>be put out of action one way or another.>> > > > >It didn't matter to you maybe, but it did to me. At first I wondered how/if > >Xena was making a judgement about which ruffians needed to die. Whether it > >said something about her propensity to kill. For awhile later on, it > >seemed she was more purposeful in using it, often preferring less lethal > >means. But since I rarely got to see somebody get up afterwards, I didn't > >think about it as much. I still wonder if Gabs killed that guy at the end > >of AFIN. I think I heard different views from Xenastaff on that in the > >interviews, though I believe ROC was one who believed Gabs killed him. > > Well, of course, one could also ask about the fate of those ruffians which > Gabby whacked round the head >> Which I did indeed question for the same reasons. At first it seemed we were to see the staff has nonlethal. Later on, Gabs was using that sucker like a deadly club. > > This may sound callous or elitist, but for the purposes of the plot I still > don't think it mattered much what happened to those ruffians. Like the > villagers that Callisto and every other warlord's men beat up. I guess, in > > order to minimise any moral problems with Xena's path of redemption, it > would > be convenient to assume she had the chacky set to 'stun'. >> Well, it's hard for me to dismiss that because I considered the moral aspect an important aspect of the story. Cally beat up on innocent folks, but we didn't see Reformed Xena doing that. I just finished watching "Livia" and "Eve." Much of Xena's angst was in seeing Livia's innocent victims, in saving Livia so that she could perhaps kill more innocent people. I think of Xena's reaction to hurting the villagers in "Reckoning." She made a distinction between warriors and famers. I didn't get the feeling she analyzed warrior opponents too much, in terms of worrying about whether her blows were lethal. > > Re Morimoto at the end of FIN, that was one of those incidents where the > participants did have different ideas (and, guess what? - it made nooo > difference to Gabs' portrayal on screen) - from the DVD transcript (the > Director's Cut DVD, not Season 6) - ROC thought she killed him, Lucy didn't > realise that. >> Um, no, it didn't. Again, the issue is our interpretation of her portrayal. > And it's precisely because of our assumptions of typical behaviour that > TPTB > can surprise us. For example, in Deliverer, didn't almost everybody have > Khrafstar's one-God mob mentally pegged as early Christian-like peaceniks? > > (And that didn't come just from our experience of XWP, but from our > experience of TV dramas in general). So it was a huge surprise when they > turned out to be devil-worshippers. Cool. >> Agreed. Although in this instance it did rely a bit on Xena's previous encounters with "one god" folks (Altered States, Giant Killer, Royal Couple of Theives). I think it was in Thieves that she mentioned how these people had saved her when she was wounded. I personally didn't think that much about "peaceniks." I generally took my cues from Xena, rather than external sources. She pretty much dismissed Khrafstar in part because she thought she knew something about where he was coming from. For this reason I didn't pay him much mind either, even though Gabs did. Afraid I didn't take my cues from her too much. :-) > > >Xena's watching Callisto sink in the sand was a huge curve for me. > > Yes, that was a departure from her usual. And it wasn't just a departure > from Xena's usual behaviour (good Xena, anyway), it was also against the > established conventions ('rules', behaviour, whatever) for heroes. >> Yes, in that instance I did view it in the context of the typical hero and was stunned on both counts. > >>Still, there was a lot more that stayed the same about Tartarus - the > >>domain > >>of Hades, where the dead went and from where some lucky ones graduated to > >>the Elysian Fields - than there was that changed. >> > > > >Heh, when Ares said he didn't have power in Hades' domain (Godfearing > >Child?), I thought, "Since when?" > > > >-- Ife > > As I recall, Ares never did have any power over Hades in his own domain. > Do > you have an incident in mind that suggests otherwise? > No, it was precisely that I couldn't recall ever hearing that before. Indeed, I couldn't recall anything about godly "domains" in any XWP ep before then. Later, we go stuff about the chains of Hephestes, how gods could give up their immortality, etc. Admittedly, I didn't pay much attention to the god "rules" or watch Herc much, so maybe I missed some prior mention of who had what power in which domain. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:49:08 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats In a message dated 7/19/2005 7:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, candex@verizon.net writes: > It looks like Lucy will be back at CBS with a new movie Vampire Bats > (working > title). She will be reprising her role as Maddy Reardon.>> Yaaaay. Now this is great > > news but imagine my excitement when I discovered she will be at war with > bats. > I hope she uses a sword on them (the Xena katana is very effective weapon > but > Gabrielle's Amazon prop sword has a nice swing to it when waving it at > bats). > I just can't wait - Lucy and BATS-wow. >> Surely they'll be contacting you to be a consultant on this. Perhaps we should start an e-mail campaign? If you get on set, you'll have to bring the lot of us with ya. > > I hope we get a nice series of movies out of the Reardon character. It > would > be great to have Lucy on TV on a more regular basis. > > Yes, I like the Reardon character. Lots of potential for drama, action and comedy. Mainly I like that she's the star. They can do away with hubby, tho. Maybe the baby can age fast like Eve, so they can be a mother-daughter team. Oooo, somehow the locust juice from those bio-engineered insects got into Maddy's bloodstream while she was pregnant. Baby not only grows up fast but has super powers. She can't talk to gods tho. One Messenger of Eli was enough. Oooo, unless it's the locust god, which tries to get her to do evil. Maddy has to help daughter combat her dark side while they're combatting the bats. Maybe daughter even wants to join the bats. Hmmm, wonder what's in these cheap cigarettes I've been smoking. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:05:18 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:00, Cheryl Ande wrote: > It looks like Lucy will be back at CBS with a new movie Vampire Bats > (working title). She will be reprising her role as Maddy Reardon. Now > this is great news but imagine my excitement when I discovered she will be > at war with bats. I hope she uses a sword on them (the Xena katana is very > effective weapon but Gabrielle's Amazon prop sword has a nice swing to it > when waving it at bats). I just can't wait - Lucy and BATS-wow. > > I hope we get a nice series of movies out of the Reardon character. It > would be great to have Lucy on TV on a more regular basis. > > CherylA Yeah, soon as I saw that topic, I figured it would push your button :) You realise, these mutant bats stand five feet tall, have six-inch long fangs, and they're waiting to take revenge on everybody who has ever persecuted bats in the past. Oh yes, and they can read mailing list posts too cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:34:30 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:49, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snippage) > > So, yeah, the chacky's properties changed very slightly - but not a lot, > > it's not as if I concluded that anybody could control it. >> > > True, although Princess Diana has a go at it, though with questionable > success.. She managed to throw it - I guess anybody could throw the chacky. But she certainly didn't either control it or catch it. > > >>>Afterwards, some viewers saw > > >>>philosophical significance in the fact that someone else could > > >>> "command" the chaky. Others (like myself) gave the chaky less > > >>> signficance than before, because we now knew someone besides Xena > > >>> could handle it. > > >> > > >>You thought it detracted from the chacky, I thought it added to > > >>Callisto's stature. But either way, this atypical chacky behaviour > > >> was significant, and only because we previously had a mental idea of > > >> what the chacky could do, > > >>which we had to adjust. >> > > > > > >Ah, so your saying the "mental idea" changed, but the "typical" behavior > > >(unwritten rule) didn't? > > > > Umm, no, I'm not saying that. Whether I say 'mental idea' or 'rule' or > > 'properties' or 'characteristics', for the purposes of the present > > discussion I mean the same thing. >> > > Okay. I thought you were making a distinction between what we perceived > and what the chaky itself was doing. Mind you, I don't have a problem with > that. I accept that the CGI was shown to be doing something in particular > that we may have interpreted differently. I was referring to an actual change in the on-screen behaviour of the chacky. (And I quite accept that our interpretations of why it did things - or why its behaviour changed - can vary). I think we're on the same wavelength here. (more snippage) > > And it's precisely because of our assumptions of typical behaviour that > > TPTB > > can surprise us. For example, in Deliverer, didn't almost everybody > > have Khrafstar's one-God mob mentally pegged as early Christian-like > > peaceniks? > > > > (And that didn't come just from our experience of XWP, but from our > > experience of TV dramas in general). So it was a huge surprise when > > they turned out to be devil-worshippers. Cool. >> > > Agreed. Although in this instance it did rely a bit on Xena's previous > encounters with "one god" folks (Altered States, Giant Killer, Royal Couple > of Theives). I think it was in Thieves that she mentioned how these people > had saved her when she was wounded. I personally didn't think that much > about "peaceniks." I generally took my cues from Xena, rather than > external sources. She pretty much dismissed Khrafstar in part because she > thought she knew something about where he was coming from. For this reason > I didn't pay him much mind either, even though Gabs did. Afraid I didn't > take my cues from her too much. > > :-) I think, whether we took our cues from Xena or from Gabs, we would have concluded that Khrafstar was harmless. You're right, Xena's previous encounters with 'one god' folks did help to lead to an assumption that such people would usually be benevolent. In that respect, TPTB suckered us beautifully. I love it when they do that! > > > > > >Heh, when Ares said he didn't have power in Hades' domain (Godfearing > > >Child?), I thought, "Since when?" > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > As I recall, Ares never did have any power over Hades in his own domain. > > Do > > you have an incident in mind that suggests otherwise? > > No, it was precisely that I couldn't recall ever hearing that before. > Indeed, I couldn't recall anything about godly "domains" in any XWP ep > before then. Later, we go stuff about the chains of Hephestes, how gods > could give up their immortality, etc. Admittedly, I didn't pay much > attention to the god "rules" or watch Herc much, so maybe I missed some > prior mention of who had what power in which domain. > > -- Ife I think Hades did feature slightly more often in Herc, though that's not a factor in forming my opinion. I could call to mind Intimate Strangers, where Ares engineered swapping Xena with Callisto - Hades was unaware of this until Xena convinced him, whereupon Hades gave Xena a day to prove it. That implies to me that Hades had the power down there, and that Ares could only achieve anything (in respect of Tartarus) by trickery. Hades also implied that Ares would be in trouble for that, if it were proved. In Ten Little Warlords, where Sisyphus stole Ares' sword, Hades (reputedly) wasn't too put out by that, he suggested that Sisyphus could take over Ares' position. Though at the end of that ep, Ares did give Xena back her own body (and sent Callisto's body back to Tartarus). So there's an incident where Ares exercised a bit of power in Hades' realm. Maybe it was only possible because Callisto was already there, though. None of this suggested that there was much love lost between Ares and Hades. None of the above is particularly conclusive. Just that I wasn't at all surprised when Ares said he had no power in Hades' realm, it didn't strike me as incompatible with anything we'd heard before. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:26:18 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats Cheryl Ande said, "It looks like Lucy will be back at CBS with a new movie Vampire Bats (working title). She will be reprising her role as Maddy Reardon. Now this is great news but imagine my excitement when I discovered she will be at war with bats." hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........but now, what do us bat lovers do?......... ;) lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:57:29 -0400 From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Bats At 10:26 AM 7/20/2005, you wrote: >Cheryl Ande said, > >"It looks like Lucy will be back at CBS with a new movie Vampire >Bats (working title). She will be reprising her role as Maddy >Reardon. Now this is great news but imagine my excitement when I >discovered she will be at war with bats." > > >hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........but now, what do us bat lovers do?......... Make the bats little brass breast plates, leather skirts, and mini Chakrams out of 1/2' stainless steel washers????? This has been a Warrior Jester Drive By >;) >lilli >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= Lee Daley leedaley@optonline.net ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #182 **************************************