From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #177 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, July 12 2005 Volume 05 : Number 177 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Hind's Blood Dagger [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:43:22 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Hind's Blood Dagger In a message dated 7/10/2005 2:23:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > And much later, after a vial of hinds blood has found its way from the > alternate universe (Stranger in a Strange World) via the Vortex, in the > possession of The Sovereign, into 'this' world, the first person to use it > is > Callisto, and the god she uses it on is - Strife. "Well, at least we know > the stuff really works, huh?" > > Now, isn't that poetic justice? > LOL! I suppose. Kind of like "follow the money." Instead, "Follow the HB Dagger." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:43:24 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny In a message dated 7/8/2005 4:01:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > << I think my hatred of Caesar and Romans originates from this, > never mind that he crucified Xena, HE KILLED M'LILA! That is unforgivable.> > > Why, CR, you old closet romantic, you. I really didn't get your absolute disgust for Caesar, his obvious bad points notwithstanding. After all, Xena played a role in her own demise and certainly wasn't helpless prior to falling for him. But I see you weren't viewing this with your head, so much as your heart -- for M'Lila. That I can understand -- even if Caesar didn't "pull the trigger," so to speak. In fact, It probably makes it worse that she simply got in the way of his primary target. Hmmm, I hadn't thought of this before, but Caesar's guards might've described to him the mysterious person who freed Xena. I don't think she killed the guards. She had her hood covering her face, but it was the same outfit. The description of her size and moves might've led him to realize that it was M'Lila. (If they'd had sense, they would've lied and said a gang of malcontents ambushed them.) Anyway, it does open up the possibility that Caesar figured M'Lila was with Xena. I'm not saying he paid her any more attention than a gnat, but he might not've minded her being killed along with anyone else who might've helped Xena. Any thoughts on that? > <<(Just think - if that Roman > had been a bit quicker with his crossbow, it would have been Xena who died > in > that hut and we would be watching 'M'Lila, Warrior Princess'. No > disrespect > to Xena, but I could watch that :) >> LOL! We may disagree on many things, but M'Lila is not one of them. Her moment in the Xenaverse was brief, but left a lasting impression on me. Alive, I think she became one of young Xena's true friends in terms of respect, trust and affection. They were both young wanderers in a rough world because of what that world had do to them. Both chose to rebel. Her death pushed Xena over the edge. Ironically, it showed Xena still had the spark of humanity. That her newfound evil mission wasn't so much because Caesar had betrayed her or robbed her of her chance at riches and conquest. It was because he was responsible for killing someone who had befriended and sacrificed herself for Xena. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:43:27 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:14:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I'd say the rules of logic are _not_ 'imposed' by the viewer, so much as > _deduced_ by the viewer from the evidence in the episodes. To take the > chacky, for example, since you mentioned it - these deduced rules meant > that > we (the viewers) knew what the chacky was useful for and what it could do. > > > By "imposed," I mean that some took those properties to mean that the chaky had a spiritual connection to Xena, which gave special significance to what they saw it do. Others saw what it did as simply the effects of a physical object in the hands of someone who'd mastered it -- like we later saw with Prince Morlocke (?) and his flying thingy. > > Admittedly, its abilities gradually increased throughout the series, but at > no time did it suddenly start doing something completely untypical. We > knew, for example, that only Xena could catch the chacky. That was why, > when Callisto caught it, it was a shock. TPTB _depended_ on our knowledge > of the chacky's properties to get that element of surprise. >> Um, that seems a bit of a contradiction. If it never did anything "untypical," why would we be so surprised Cally could catch and throw it with no problem? That would only be the case if we had thought such ability was limited to Xena, because of her special "relationship" with the chaky. (Which I initially thought.) Afterwards, some viewers saw philosophical significance in the fact that someone else could "command" the chaky. Others (like myself) gave the chaky less signficance than before, because we now knew someone besides Xena could handle it. > > > The chacky's quite a good example simply because it is only seen in XWP so > its operating rules are unique to the series. *How* the chacky did it was > indeed debatable, but *what* it did was fairly consistent. >> But it's the interpretation of what we saw that we're debating, not the fact that it could bounce off, cut or fly above things. Even then, there was often a question in my mind as to whether the chaky had killed or or simply disabled some opponents. That's a key "what" unless you limit it to "the chaky knocked those soldiers down" and don't worry about whether they'd ever get up or not. > > To take another example, the powers of gods (Greek sub-species). They're > immortal, they can appear and disappear at will, they can also (and this is > an interesting property) make themselves visible to one person but not > another. We got used to this so it didn't need to be spelled out to us. > But they weren't prescient (couldn't predict the future, at least not with > accuracy), and time travel was apparently difficult for them. >. Sorry, but that was often a point of confusion for me that I simply ignored. Sometimes I wasn't sure how much others heard Ares, or if they saw him at all. One minute it seemed the gods could keep tabs on folks not matter whose territory they were in. The next minute Xena could expect to pass under the gods' radar by faking her death. If she'd succeeded, had she planned on assuming a new identity and giving up being a warrior? > > I'm sure there is a host of such unwritten rules, which just pass by us > unnoticed because we're so used to them - but we'd notice if they were > broken. > Again, it's not that I was used to things performing a certain way, but that I accepted almost any "rule" could be broken at any time. Hence, constantly being surprised. One of my favorites was how a mortal could enter (and leave) Tartarus. Initially we see Xena swimming to it and having to leave the same way. In Godfearing Child, she and Gabs somehow go through water (apparently drying off real quick) and emerging through some type of cavern. Did I notice it broke what I had previously thought was an "unwritten rule?" Yep. Did I care? Only enough to wonder for a couple of minutes if I'd missed something important. I decided I didn't. - --Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:28:06 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/8/2005 4:01:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > << I think my hatred of Caesar and Romans originates from this, > > never mind that he crucified Xena, HE KILLED M'LILA! That is > > unforgivable.> > > Why, CR, you old closet romantic, you. I really didn't get your absolute > disgust for Caesar, his obvious bad points notwithstanding. After all, > Xena played a role in her own demise and certainly wasn't helpless prior to > falling for him. But I see you weren't viewing this with your head, so > much as your heart -- for M'Lila. That I can understand -- even if Caesar > didn't "pull the trigger," so to speak. In fact, It probably makes it > worse that she simply got in the way of his primary target. Yes, well, I didn't want either M'Lila or Xena (or Nicklio) to get hit with that crossbow bolt. And I disliked Caesar intensely for what he did to Xena - but I really hated him for causing the death of M'Lila. :) > Hmmm, I hadn't thought of this before, but Caesar's guards might've > described to him the mysterious person who freed Xena. I don't think she > killed the guards. She had her hood covering her face, but it was the same > outfit. The description of her size and moves might've led him to realize > that it was M'Lila. (If they'd had sense, they would've lied and said a > gang of malcontents ambushed them.) Anyway, it does open up the > possibility that Caesar figured M'Lila was with Xena. I'm not saying he > paid her any more attention than a gnat, but he might not've minded her > being killed along with anyone else who might've helped Xena. Any thoughts > on that? Early in the ep, when Caesar was translating for M'Lila, that was interesting and I wondered if anything would develop from that, plot-wise. (I don't mean romantically). But it didn't. But obviously Caesar took enough notice if M'Lila to ask Xena where she was when he captured them. So, having seen M'Lila in action, he might very well have deduced from what the guards said, that she was the rescue party. I think he would have regarded M'Lila as a threat, and been quite happy to have her killed along with Xena. > > <<(Just think - if that Roman > > had been a bit quicker with his crossbow, it would have been Xena who > > died in > > that hut and we would be watching 'M'Lila, Warrior Princess'. No > > disrespect > > to Xena, but I could watch that :) >> > > LOL! We may disagree on many things, but M'Lila is not one of them. Her > moment in the Xenaverse was brief, but left a lasting impression on me. > Alive, I think she became one of young Xena's true friends in terms of > respect, trust and affection. They were both young wanderers in a rough > world because of what that world had do to them. Both chose to rebel. Her > death pushed Xena over the edge. Ironically, it showed Xena still had the > spark of humanity. That her newfound evil mission wasn't so much because > Caesar had betrayed her or robbed her of her chance at riches and conquest. > It was because he was responsible for killing someone who had befriended > and sacrificed herself for Xena. > > -- Ife YES. That's exactly how I feel. Well, maybe not taking revenge on the whole world, like Xena, but certainly taking revenge on Caesar. I would have loved to find out more of M'Lila's back-story. She was gorgeous, fascinating and mysterious. And she would have made a fascinating sidekick for ten-winters-ago Xena (can't call her Evil Xena because M'Lila wouldn't have died, and would doubtless have exerted some restraining influnce on Not-so-evil-Xena). It does work, dramatically, for the hero to have a faithful, very capable, dependable and reliable sidekick. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:10:47 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:14:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > I'd say the rules of logic are _not_ 'imposed' by the viewer, so much as > > _deduced_ by the viewer from the evidence in the episodes. To take the > > chacky, for example, since you mentioned it - these deduced rules meant > > that > > we (the viewers) knew what the chacky was useful for and what it could > > do. > > > By "imposed," I mean that some took those properties to mean that the chaky > had a spiritual connection to Xena, which gave special significance to what > they saw it do. Others saw what it did as simply the effects of a > physical object in the hands of someone who'd mastered it -- like we later > saw with Prince Morlocke (?) and his flying thingy. I could equally well argue that viewers 'deduced' those views from what they saw. There's no requirement that different viewers deduce exactly the same conclusions. "Imposed" to me implies that viewers' opinions somehow had an effect on the chacky's behaviour - which obviosuly isn't so. But I think this is just splitting hairs over the meaning of a word. I think we both know what we both mean > > Admittedly, its abilities gradually increased throughout the series, but > > at no time did it suddenly start doing something completely untypical. > > We knew, for example, that only Xena could catch the chacky. That was > > why, when Callisto caught it, it was a shock. TPTB _depended_ on our > > knowledge of the chacky's properties to get that element of surprise. >> > > Um, that seems a bit of a contradiction. If it never did anything > "untypical," why would we be so surprised Cally could catch and throw it > with no problem? That would only be the case if we had thought such > ability was limited to Xena, because of her special "relationship" with the > chaky. (Which I initially thought.) Yes, precisely. We had a picture of the properties of the chacky, including the 'fact' that only Xena could throw / catch it, which were at variance with what Callisto did. > Afterwards, some viewers saw > philosophical significance in the fact that someone else could "command" > the chaky. Others (like myself) gave the chaky less signficance than > before, because we now knew someone besides Xena could handle it. You thought it detracted from the chacky, I thought it added to Callisto's stature. But either way, this atypical chacky behaviour was significant, and only because we previously had a mental idea of what the chacky could do, which we had to adjust. > > The chacky's quite a good example simply because it is only seen in XWP > > so its operating rules are unique to the series. *How* the chacky did > > it was indeed debatable, but *what* it did was fairly consistent. >> > > But it's the interpretation of what we saw that we're debating, not the > fact that it could bounce off, cut or fly above things. Even then, there > was often a question in my mind as to whether the chaky had killed or or > simply disabled some opponents. That's a key "what" unless you limit it to > "the chaky knocked those soldiers down" and don't worry about whether > they'd ever get up or not. Often it didn't matter, they were background ruffians, who just needed to be put out of action one way or another. But still, we knew (after the first couple of eps), that when Xena held the chacky, she could throw with great accuracy as a weapon. > > To take another example, the powers of gods (Greek sub-species). > > They're immortal, they can appear and disappear at will, they can also > > (and this is an interesting property) make themselves visible to one > > person but not another. We got used to this so it didn't need to be > > spelled out to us. But they weren't prescient (couldn't predict the > > future, at least not with accuracy), and time travel was apparently > > difficult for them. >. > > Sorry, but that was often a point of confusion for me that I simply > ignored. Sometimes I wasn't sure how much others heard Ares, or if they saw > him at all. One minute it seemed the gods could keep tabs on folks not > matter whose territory they were in. The next minute Xena could expect to > pass under the gods' radar by faking her death. If she'd > succeeded, had she planned on assuming a new identity and giving up being a > warrior? Well, generally, the Greek gods' powers were confined to Greek territory. Maybe she planned to emigrate. They certainly weren't prescient or omniscient. They had to be watching something before they knew what was going on. For example, in Maternal Instincts, Gabrielle acted as a decoy for Callisto, who thought she was Solan until she revealed who she was. And further, to quote Callisto, "even I can't be in two places at once, can I?" I think that was fairly consistent. And besides, to be arguing where the limits of the gods' powers lay, we have to have a certain core of generally acknowledged properties. Another example - at the end of Coming Home, where the newly mortal Ares says "I gotta stop tryin' that. I'm gonna rupture something." we know what he was talking about. A new viewer to that ep wouldn't get the reference. It's only funny if we know one of the properties of Greek gods was the ability to appear and disappear (usually when travelling to somewhere else). > > I'm sure there is a host of such unwritten rules, which just pass by us > > unnoticed because we're so used to them - but we'd notice if they were > > broken. > > Again, it's not that I was used to things performing a certain way, but > that I accepted almost any "rule" could be broken at any time. Hence, > constantly being surprised. Well, not so. 99% of 'rules' (or 'properties' or 'characteristics') were NOT being broken at any time. And this was quite essential otherwise the saga would have been far too confused to paint any sort of coherent picture. There wouldn't have been a story for us to get attached to. This is necessary for *any* story, whether a TV series, a movie, or a book. The same goes for the characters themselves - obviously. This is how we know that if they start acting wildly 'out of character' (like Xena's pacifism at the start of Warrior Priestess Tramp) either she's got some hidden motive for behaving so strangely or there's something wrong. (And there was, it was Priestess Leah, not Xena). Or when Gabby turned into a stroppy little bar-fighter at the start of Ten Little Warlords. > One of my favorites was how a mortal could > enter (and leave) Tartarus. Initially we see Xena swimming to it and > having to leave the same way. In Godfearing Child, she and Gabs somehow go > through water (apparently drying off real quick) and emerging through some > type of cavern. Did I notice it broke what I had previously thought was an > "unwritten rule?" Yep. Did I care? Only enough to wonder for a couple of > minutes if I'd missed something important. I decided I didn't. > > --Ife As I recall, Xena always did dry off real quick when she arrived in Tartarus. Tartarus did have more than one entrance. But I agree, there wasn't great consistency in how it was treated. Still, there was a lot more that stayed the same about Tartarus - the domain of Hades, where the dead went and from where some lucky ones graduated to the Elysian Fields - than there was that changed. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #177 **************************************