From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #173 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, July 8 2005 Volume 05 : Number 173 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Con 05 Meeting Lucy [KTL As for Gabs working out her issues about kids - aside from the fact that I > couldn't care less about Gabs, or her issues, or kids, as you know - it > wasn't. It was Gabs working out her issues about hideously deformed mutant > > monstrosities. (I didn't know she _had_ any issues about kids....) >> Oh, ye who repress anythin Gabs. The ep started with Gabs expressing doubts about her motherly aptitude. It ended with her confident about that. Again, very thin rationale for what we saw, but gave a context for the kids. > > >>By that I mean, there is just no explanation for how Gabs would or could > >>(or > >>why she should) experience 'flashforwards' to some seventies-style TV > >>sitcom. >> > > > >Heh, same as the "just take our word for it" method by which Xena somehow > >got transported to the 20th century in The Xena Scrolls. It's all fantasy, > >remember? > > Nope. It was Xena's spirit that got transported in Xena Scrolls. That's > pretty mainstream, in and outside XWP - just consider Deja Vu, Clones, Soul > Possession, Yes Victoria.... >> Right. Perfectly "normal" -- as is pretty much anything in fantasyland. Like the beauty pageant, the casino in King Con, or the wrestling scenes in Little Problems and Kindred Spirits. Or Aphrodite listening to rock music on headphones. Oh, right, she's a goddess, so probably could foresee such things. :-) > > > That's quite different from Gabs (or anyone) somehow foreseeing 20th century > > sitcom culture. That did not happen anywhere else. And - why should Gabs > > foresee that sort of silliness? There was no reason for it. >. As opposed to Bitter Suite. A universe of Tarot cards. Yep, "mainstream" in XWP and elsewhere. I saw that a bunch of times in ... in .... Where else was that? > > >>Every other anachronistic ep had some rationale. The 'modern' eps (Xena > >>Scrolls, Deja Vu, Clones, Soul Possession) were entirely logical in there > >>setting. >> > > > >Bwahahaha! Sure, if we're willing to believe in spells, reincarnation with > >intact memories, magic chakrams/scrolls, etc. So Gabs had the imagination > >of a science-fiction writer. Why not? > > Because it didn't fit with the atmosphere of the series, not in any way. > It > was not a Xena ep. >. So, do we throw out Vanishing Act as well? It was Xena, not her spirit, taking on the accent, appearance and mannerisms reminiscent of a modern-day New York City Fran Dreschler (?). Like I said, I love these canons about what is or isn't "typical" XWP. > >Um, can you 'splain how Nigel and his camera crew was any more "logical" > >than Gabs' mermaid fantasy of refrigerators, water beds, etc.? > > Easy. Nigel et al were observing the regular Xena world. They were > anachronistic, but the rest of the world was typical Xena. A certain level > > of anachronism can be tolerated without destroying the illusion. >> Depending on who's watching. Sorry, but you and I have different tolerance levels for that. I say again that I'm not defending Fishy as "typical" XWP, only that it was more tolerable to me as representative of XWP than the more superficially "obvious" Lifeblood. > >> And as for those > >>embarrassing deformed mutants - since when were genetic abnormalities > >>funny? Excuse me a > >>moment while I go and laugh at a cripple..... >. > > > >I don't think that was the point, so much as Gabs getting rid of her fear > >(admittedly overblown) of children, learning to love and accept them > >despite their flaws. To me, they were simply manifestations of childish > >characteristics -- pranks, rebelliousness, getting underfoot -- not > >"literal" children. They weren't portrayed as any more laughable (and were > >ridiculed much less) than nearly all the other principles in the ep. > > Well, I found them cringingly embarrassing. The ony other rubber monsters > equally bad were in a couple of Herc episodes. And if they weren't meant > to be funny, what were they doing in a supposed comedy? Why did those > 'kids' need to be hideously deformed, anyway? >> Ever heard children referred to as "little monsters?" Like I said above, this was Gabs' nightmare (so to speak), so I wasn't surprised that the kids resembled her fears. > > > >Again, it's perfectly understandable why some folks may not like Fishy, but > >"logic" is something we seem to see quite easily in other aspects we're > >okay with but don't make "sense." > > I'll try and restate this a bit more clearly. My primary objection to > Fishsticks is not because of logic, it's because I found it embarrasingly > absurd and (with the exception of the two from the Bronx) cringingly > un-funny. >> Bingo. Personal taste I can understand. I found a lot of the "bathroom" humor and slapstick distasteful, too "easy" or "common" compared to the subtler or more creative humor I deemed more characteristic of the show. I had to accept it as part of Xena only because it was there. HOWVER - if there was the slightest hint of a logical reason why > > this should be going on in Gabs' perverted little brain*, it might help just > > a little to provide a rationale for it. But there wasn't. Not a trace. > Zilch. Nada. >. Whereas I did. > >Portraying something weird was a normal > >part of XWP for me. Incorporating several scenes from another show was the > >true aberration. Fishy was more "organic" to XWP in terms of how the > >characters were used. > > Hardly. Not one of the characters in Fishland were particularly > recognisable as their XWP counterparts. >> Wow. I saw qualities of Gabs, Joxer, Aphrodite, and Discord in their counterparts. And, thank the gods, Lucy wasn't in > > it. >> Uh huh. We got to see her as Meg jumping out of a cake instead. Good thing there's such appreciation for whipped cream and cherries -- or practically anything Lucy wears. > > >Lifeblood grafted bits of XWP on to somebody else's > >show that happened to have XWP producers and actors. > > Well surprise surprise, like Fishpaste didn't? >. Um, no, I don't believe Fishy was filmed separately for an entirely different show. Rumors about it as an idea for another show notwithstanding, it was still filmed within the context of and for XWP. > > >I watched it the > >other day and cringed every time Xena thrust that magaical dagger toward > >the ceiling. Talk about a waste of screen time and as much "logic" as the > >Hind's Blood dagger. > > > >-- Ife > > Considering Lucy was not available for much acting, what would you have > preferred? Some other sort of Xena-lite ep? >> Uh uh. More on the order of Succession, my next least fav pregnancy ep, after Lifeblood. Or Fishsticks, which ranks higher than either of those eps on my list. > > > The Hind's Blood dagger was quite logical. Hinds Blood could kill a god. > > Where was it not? > My point is that it's "logical" only because that's what we were told or shown. I accepted it in that context, just as I accepted all the other ways gods could suddenly (and conveniently) lose their lives or mortality. Gabs could somehow dream of a future world. I don't know how, but she did. I don't care how, any more than I hurt my brain over the Hind's Blood dagger. Gabs dream worked okay for me, but didn't for you. The dagger works for you but is stupid to me. I chalk it up to personal taste and leave it at that. Okay? - -- Ife - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:24:50 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:31, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/6/2005 1:25:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > As for Gabs working out her issues about kids - aside from the fact that > > I couldn't care less about Gabs, or her issues, or kids, as you know - it > > wasn't. It was Gabs working out her issues about hideously deformed > > mutant > > monstrosities. (I didn't know she _had_ any issues about kids....) >> > > Oh, ye who repress anythin Gabs. The ep started with Gabs expressing > doubts about her motherly aptitude. It ended with her confident about > that. Again, very thin rationale for what we saw, but gave a context for > the kids. Yeah, well, that's - as you say - pretty thin. Compared with Xena, who has to be betrayed and crucified by Julius Caesar before she develops anything strong enough to be called 'issues'..... > > >Um, can you 'splain how Nigel and his camera crew was any more "logical" > > >than Gabs' mermaid fantasy of refrigerators, water beds, etc.? > > > > Easy. Nigel et al were observing the regular Xena world. They were > > anachronistic, but the rest of the world was typical Xena. A certain > > level > > of anachronism can be tolerated without destroying the illusion. >> > > Depending on who's watching. Sorry, but you and I have different tolerance > levels for that. I say again that I'm not defending Fishy as "typical" > XWP, only that it was more tolerable to me as representative of XWP than > the more superficially "obvious" Lifeblood. Oh, I agree. But as I said somewhere, the logic of it wasn't my primary concern anyway. I found Lifeblood (the Amazon High bits anyway) tolerable, even good, drama, whereas Fishsticks was just embarassingly un-funny. To me. > > And, thank the gods, Lucy wasn't in it. > > Uh huh. We got to see her as Meg jumping out of a cake instead. Good > thing there's such appreciation for whipped cream and cherries -- or > practically anything Lucy wears. Yeah. Loved that bikini But then, Soul Possession was a passable episode (personally, I liked it). So, Xena's part in that, like most eps, I'm quite happy about. But Fishsticks was so bad, IMO, that _nothing_ Lucy could have done would have salvaged it - hence my relief that she wasn't in it. (If I was a Gabfan, I'd be wishing Renee wasn't in it, too) > > >Lifeblood grafted bits of XWP on to somebody else's > > >show that happened to have XWP producers and actors. > > > > Well surprise surprise, like Fishpaste didn't? >. > > Um, no, I don't believe Fishy was filmed separately for an entirely > different show. Rumors about it as an idea for another show > notwithstanding, it was still filmed within the context of and for XWP. I just go by the results on the screen - never mind why it was shot or what's on the cutting room floor. Lifeblood had some interesting footage that was reasonably well linked to an ongoing XWP theme - Amazons. And it had the same ambiance as a regular XWP ep - if Xena and Gabs had been in the Amazon High world, they would have fitted right in. So I don't see a clash. (It fits, I think, better than Kindred Spirits, which _was_ filmed for Xena). Fishsticks had nothing in common with any XWP ep - it certainly didn't tell us anything interesting about Gabs, Joxer, Aphrodite or Discord, and the ambiance was totally different. (Pool parties? Swimming coaches?) So it just has to stand or fall by itself (like, say, Deja Vu has to). And while Deja Vu was clever enough to do so, all I can say about Fishsticks is - splat. :( > My point is that it's "logical" only because that's what we were told or > shown. I accepted it in that context, just as I accepted all the other > ways gods could suddenly (and conveniently) lose their lives or mortality. > Gabs could somehow dream of a future world. I don't know how, but she did. > I don't care how, any more than I hurt my brain over the Hind's Blood > dagger. Gabs dream worked okay for me, but didn't for you. The dagger > works for you but is stupid to me. I chalk it up to personal taste and > leave it at that. Okay? > > -- Ife Well, no. I'll concede that our differences over Fishsticks are influenced by our personal taste. But I can't accept the implication that, because we tolerate a certain degree of departure from literal reality, then 'anything goes'. That way madness lies. A series like Xena builds up its own unwritten rules of logic. Xena can leap but she can't fly (unless on one of Odin's flying horses). She can usually outguess the enemy but she's not psychic. Xena does _not_ whip out a Browning Hi-Power and blast the ambushers away. (Nor does Ares, god or not, he has to content himself with Hephaestus metal). And so on... The Hind's Blood dagger can kill a god, and TPTB actually handled the complex saga and continuity of the Hinds Blood very well (you'd appreciate this more if you watched Herc as well). It was one of the better facets of the story in that regard. They set it up with heaps of background in the 'Encounter' trilogy. And you can trace that particular portion of Hinds Blood through Stranger in a Strange World, via Armageddon Now (where the Sovereign brought it with him through the vortex), Iolaus put it on the knife to try and kill Callisto, Herc imbedded the knife in the stone wall of Ares' temple, from where Xena rescued it in Sacrifice.... it all fits. So, similarly, it's part of my case that Lifeblood 'fits' into the Xena world (or the past history of the Amazons) while Fishsticks just - doesn't. But as I said, since Fishsticks is unrelated to the ongoing Xena story, the logic isn't too important to me - I don't need to try and make it logically 'fit in'. I can just conveniently pretend it didn't happen :) Personal taste. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:22:03 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Con 05 Meeting Lucy KT wrote: > > > The easily amused Ms. Cheryl Ande was also instrumental in me having a > > > picture taken with Lucy. (Though neither I nor Cheryl can remember > > > exactly who took the picture.) > > Snip snip snip > > > tugged me along over towards Lucy. She got distracted talking to someone > > > and I gently pulled my arm away and went back to the table and sat down. > > > Suddenly she appeared at my side again and took my arm again and hauled > > > me to my feet again, saying, "YOU HAVE TO GET A PICTURE TAKEN WITH LUCY!" > > Cheryl answered: > > Now lets face it KT wanted a picture with Lucy - everyone wants picture > > with Lucy. I wasn't going to let this golden opportunity pass her by - > > damnit. > Then cr chimed in: > Yeah, I have to admit that KT's professed indifference and reticence did > strike me as a little disingenuous. ;) Oh darn, cr, you've caught me out. Yes, you're right. I was just being totally disingenuous. Actually the real story is that I was sitting there thinking, "I'll pretend I have no interest in getting a picture with Lucy. That'll make me look real cool. But boy, do I hope someone notices that I'm just sitting here pretending I have no interest in getting a picture with Lucy. And MAKES me go up there and get one. Because I REALLY want a picture with Lucy but don't want to look like one of those needy nerds up there. Hmmmm. Nobody's noticing. Nope, everybody's still looking at Lucy, not at me. Damn, somebody'd better come along and push me into getting a picture with Lucy or I'll be SO disappointed! Tch. Well furk it!" And at that point, I grabbed Cheryl, wrestled her head under my arm, whipped out a funnel I always carry with me, stuffed it between her protesting lips and proceeded to pour (free) wine bottle after wine bottle down her gullet. She protested at first, but the words soon faded out into just, "Glug, glug, glug" which became, "Mmmmmm. Mmmmmm. Mmmmore. Mmmoooore." After I was pretty sure she was primed enough, I whispered in her ear--"Cheryl-- MAKE me get a picture taken with Luce. Ignore whatever I say and just drag me up there." She was so soused by that time that she not only followed my orders, she also forgot about the whole prep thing I'd done on her. No wonder bats have their way with her. > > But since you were there, pushing KT into doing something we all know she was > secretly dying to do, it would have been impolite of her to turn it down, > wouldn't it? > Thel, nobody EVER has to push me into doing something I'm secretly dying to do. I'm too old to not take the pleasures I want to. Or not to refuse those I don't want. > > As far as I know I didn't drool and obviously I wasn't speechless. It was > > however wonderful to meet her and to see for myself what a patient and kind > > person Lucy is. She was grace personified. I will always rememeber the > > last words she said to me: she said "I'm going home and eat pie." Beneath > > all the glamour and fame is a nice woman who likes pie and I'm proud to be > > her fan. I just wish that damn camera would have worked (mumble, grumble, > > curse). > > > > CherylA > > I expect the camera's saying to itself "I just wish that damn owner would > figure out how to push the button" > > cr > ...... much amused by The KT and Cheryl Show It was quite the evening. Grin. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:58:31 -0500 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Mouth To Mouth on XWP OK, since things are pretty slow, I'll jump on in... IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Depending on who's watching. Sorry, but you and I have different > tolerance > >levels for that. I say again that I'm not defending Fishy as "typical" XWP, >only that it was more tolerable to me as representative of XWP than the more >superficially "obvious" Lifeblood. > > > OK, I'll admit it... I'm on of those * 10 * people who actually liked the ep! >>>> And as for those >>>>embarrassing deformed mutants - since when were genetic abnormalities >>>>funny? Excuse me a >>>>moment while I go and laugh at a cripple..... >. >>>> >>>> >>>I don't think that was the point, so much as Gabs getting rid of her fear >>>(admittedly overblown) of children, learning to love and accept them >>>despite their flaws. To me, they were simply manifestations of childish >>>characteristics -- pranks, rebelliousness, getting underfoot -- not >>>"literal" children. They weren't portrayed as any more laughable (and were >>>ridiculed much less) than nearly all the other principles in the ep. >>> >>> I found the kids more tolerable than the characters Aphrodite and Discord played. >>Well, I found them cringingly embarrassing. The ony other rubber monsters >>equally bad were in a couple of Herc episodes. And if they weren't meant >>to be funny, what were they doing in a supposed comedy? Why did those >>'kids' need to be hideously deformed, anyway? >> >> >> > >Ever heard children referred to as "little monsters?" Like I said above, >this was Gabs' nightmare (so to speak), so I wasn't surprised that the kids >resembled her fears. > > Ohhhhh..... since it was Gab's nightmare, is that why Joxer was in it? > > >>>Again, it's perfectly understandable why some folks may not like Fishy, but >>>"logic" is something we seem to see quite easily in other aspects we're >>>okay with but don't make "sense." >>> >>> >>I'll try and restate this a bit more clearly. My primary objection to >>Fishsticks is not because of logic, it's because I found it embarrasingly >>absurd and (with the exception of the two from the Bronx) cringingly >>un-funny. >> >> >> > >Bingo. Personal taste I can understand. I found a lot of the "bathroom" >humor and slapstick distasteful, too "easy" or "common" compared to the subtler >or more creative humor I deemed more characteristic of the show. I had to >accept it as part of Xena only because it was there. > > HOWVER - if there was the slightest hint of a logical reason why > > > >>this should be going on in Gabs' perverted little brain*, it might help just >> >>a little to provide a rationale for it. But there wasn't. Not a trace. >>Zilch. Nada. >. >> >> > >Whereas I did. > > > I thought it was great how she straighted both the kids *and* Joxer's character out. >My point is that it's "logical" only because that's what we were told or >shown. I accepted it in that context, just as I accepted all the other ways gods >could suddenly (and conveniently) lose their lives or mortality. Gabs could >somehow dream of a future world. I don't know how, but she did. I don't care >how, any more than I hurt my brain over the Hind's Blood dagger. Gabs dream >worked okay for me, but didn't for you. The dagger works for you but is stupid >to me. I chalk it up to personal taste and leave it at that. Okay? > > The term, "...your mileage may vary.", comes to mind here. Mark ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #173 **************************************