From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #106 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, April 23 2005 Volume 05 : Number 106 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Best of Xena [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Best of Xena [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Last Locusts Behind-the-Scenes Video Clip Now Online for Viewing ["Creation (Sharon Delaney)" KT wrote: > >>BUZZZZZZZZZZZZ! (That's the sound of the "incorrect" buzzer from game > >>shows.) > >> > >>Nope. Xena was never crucified. So she has no personal knowledge of > >>how being crucified would feel. Being Caesar's wife, I'm sure she's seen > >>lots of crucifixions. But she's never "had one". > >> > > > >Well actually she had the experience through Alti's vision. She felt the > >pain of crucifixation so Ife is right in thinking Xena knew what she was in > >for. > > > >CherylA > > > > > Except for the fact that Alti could not possibly have pulled that memory > out of Xena's mind because that moment no longer exists. Caesar changed > the world so that him crucifying Xena never happened. Either time. And so > Xena never experienced it and so cannot possibly remember it. > > This is the dark black plot hole at the very heart of Fates. Fugate set up > the problem in a way that made it impossible for it to be resolved using > the solution she chose. >> I agree that logic says Xena should not have had memories of what never happened. X&G should not have remembered what they'd experienced in the "wrong" life, once returning to the "correct" one. However, Fugate essentially created her own logic about that, just as other writers decided what happens in time warps, time travel, alternate or parallel universes. In hers, Xena obviously had a "true" life and a "false" one. The "true" one is within her, possibly never to be discovered except through some unique intervention -- such as Alti's ability to penetrate deeply into people's souls/spirits. What I saw was Xena recalling images from a life she hadn't remembered experiencing. I could disagree with Fugate's premise, but I can't ignore that Xena saw images from another life, that she saw herself being crucified and that it did not appear to be something she looked forward to experiencing again. Regardless of whether she also regained the feelings associated with that crucifixion on the beach, she certainly knew it would not be more pleasant than fighting a bunch of guards. > Once Caesar changes the Loom, this is the only life anybody has lived for > the last forty years. It is absolutely impossible for any of the > characters to remember anything from a life that never existed and that > they never lived. But yet Fugate makes them remembering that non-existent > life the key to solving the problem. > > It is so major a plot mistake that it makes the whole resulting storyline > absolutely ridiculous.>> Yes, if you do not accept the writer's premise. I guess I allowed that possibility, same as I used to do with Star Trek. I also did not confine her imagination to what other writers may have done with previous situations in Herc or XWP. It is obviously a "stretch" designed to lead to the conclusion that Xena needed to go through certain experiences to become the hero she did. Sort of a "prime directive" regarding character and emitions, more than technology. < g> Anyway, if TPTB thought it was too inconsistent with some view they had of what was "right" for XWP, they should not have aired the ep. Since they did, I can't say it never happened, just because I don't agree with the logic. > > And that's without even getting into any of the other inexplicable story > point. Like how Gabrielle physically destroying the one and only Loom of > Fate by burning it up could possibly result in it not only suddenly being > restored but also reset! >> Nobody'd ever thought, dared or had such an opportunity to do it before? To me, XWP was a lot about limits being in people's heads -- the power they gave to the gods, the helplessness they felt about their circumstances, the restraints they imposed on themselves or their dreams, their fears, their not asking questions or testing what they believed. X&G constantly broached those limits. Xena certainly acted as though she believed she could "recreate" herself is she so chose -- the Fates, gods, etc. be damned. I recently saw a woman standing outside what appeared to be a locked door. I stood there too, figuring she knew what she was doing. Then someone familiar with the door simply breezed through. If I hadn't seen that, I probably would've walked away and told others, "Be sure to call first, because the door's locked." Gabs didn't care whether the door was locked. She kicked the sucker down and discovered a power equal to (or greater than) the Fates' Loom. I don't know for sure whether she or Xena *knew* what would happen. I saw them (as usual) taking the risk to test it out for themselves, rather than accepting a "fate" they considered worse than death. > It is Xena giving up and meekly acquiescing to Caesar's plans to murder > her that causes me to make rude, uncontrollable noises whenever I hear > people talking about this ep. Without that moment, I probably would never > have noticed these endless plot holes since on the whole I found this ep > so turgid, boring and ho-hum that I would never have had the desire to > watch it again anyway. And then it ended with Xena giving up. GAG! >> It's great you acknowledge that. It's possible that not seeing Xena acquiese is why Cande and I don't focus on unexplained leaps in logic, any more than we did in other eps. (I, for one, was always mystified why the gods seemed to know what Xena was up to sometimes, but were apparently oblivious other times. I still wonder what those villagers in Reckoning were seeing, hearing and thinking when Ares' "dead" victims suddenly walked out pretty as you please. Did they think Xena was babbling to herself when nobody but her saw Ares? Were they in some "stop time" moment when nobody could see Xena either? Ah well.) Again, what you believe about the ep is what you believe. My one quibble with your explanations about some things that couldn't have happened in Fates is that they *did*. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 02:26:56 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena In a message dated 4/20/2005 2:48:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > At least until Fugate's storyline called for what? a dozen or so boys to > be able to defeat her. And of course, these were the same guys about whom > Gabrielle said, "They say that the army would follow you through the gates > of Hades." The same guys about whom Brutus said, ""She's very popular. > The troops look up to her." Um, I believe Caesar used his royal guards, not the regular guys, to take out Xena. I think they wear purple capes or something and that Joxer was one of them. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:27:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:49, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Battles with the gods are irrelevant to me (and of less interest) because I > don't expect I'll be encountering that anytime soon. XWP interested me > because of the provocative questions raised about the human condition, not > because I have a desire to imagine the influence of beings over whom I have > little or no control. Besides, the Greek gods were depicted as having > fairly "human" foilbles. I didn't regard them as "superior" beings worthy > of any more signficance than the humans they tried to control. Again, I do > believe external forces exacerbated the schisms and dramatised them, but > they weren't necessary for me personally. On reflection, I found the Greek gods interesting (or at least, Xena's batles with same) because they weren't *written* as gods. They were written as humans with some superhuman abilities (in many ways similar to superheroes, though not always of 'good character'.) That made them (mostly) colourful characters. The only ones who were written as real 'gods' were Dahak and Michael's unseen boss, and they were (IMO) the most boring of the lot. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:33:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:26, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Um, I believe Caesar used his royal guards, not the regular guys, to take > out Xena. I think they wear purple capes or something and that Joxer was > one of them. > > -- Ife Yeah, this would not be the first or last time that a dictator has had his own 'Feuhrertreu' private army to do his dirty work for him..... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:04:43 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Best of Xena On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:26, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > It is Xena giving up and meekly acquiescing to Caesar's plans to murder > > her that causes me to make rude, uncontrollable noises whenever I hear > > people talking about this ep. Without that moment, I probably would never > > have noticed these endless plot holes since on the whole I found this ep > > so turgid, boring and ho-hum that I would never have had the desire to > > watch it again anyway. And then it ended with Xena giving up. GAG! >> I didn't find it boring - mainly because it had Alti in it. It's quite difficult to make a boring scene with Alti or Xena in it. It also had some intriguing ideas. However, the whole was much less than rthe sum of its parts > It's great you acknowledge that. It's possible that not seeing Xena > acquiese is why Cande and I don't focus on unexplained leaps in logic, any > more than we did in other eps. I suppose it's true that I (and I guess everyone else) am much more tolerant of plot holes and suchlike errors, if we like an episode for other reasons. (A classic example, of course, is the number of long diatribes against the 'plot holes' in Friend in Need, mostly, I'm sure, written by people who just didn't like the conclusion it led to. Heck, I'm sure I could find just as many valid plot holes in The Debt or Sin Trades, if I tried, but I'd much rather just enjoy those eps). I have to admit that I am far more scathing, for example, about the 'phoniness' of the typical goes-off-a-cliff-and-bursts-into-flames-before-it-even-hits-the-ground car crash in some feeble B-movie, than I am of the same sort of thing in a James Bond - simply because I find James Bond movies reasonably entertaining (and they do have undeniably high production values). With 'Xena' eps, though, I don't like being scathing. Even Fishsticks moves me more to embarrassment than sarcasm. Not even with 'Fates' do I sit there watching the screen picking holes in the plot. (I save that for discussion on this list ) I guess I could overlook most of the plot holes in Fates - except for the one about Xena letting herself be crucified. That's too big for me. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:16:24 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Last Locusts Behind-the-Scenes Video Clip Now Online for Viewing Last Locusts Behind-the-Scenes Video Clip Now Online for Viewing The movie is set to air Sunday and here's the last behind-the-scenes video clip. Lucy and others are off camera delivering lines. Some political guy is supposed to say he's going to call the president, but forgets his line. So Lucy chimes in. Then she starts giggling. You can see the clip at http://www.creationent.com/outback/fanclubs/index.html Got a kick out of reading this line of Lucy's from the movie, "I am pregnant and I'm hormonal! You don't want to cross this mother!" Sharon outback@creationent.com Official Xena Fan Club ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:47:22 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy and Renee at Double Dare Screening in LA Lucy and Renee at Double Dare Screening in LA Lucy and Renee, along with the filmmakers, will be at the opening of DOUBLE DARE this Friday, April 22, at the Sunset 5 theater (Sunset & Crescent Heights) in West Hollywood at the 7:10 show. There will be a Q&A after the show. Sharon outback@creationent.com Official Xena Fan Club ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #106 **************************************