From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #103 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, April 20 2005 Volume 05 : Number 103 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Best of Xena? Sez you [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:59:41 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask In a message dated 4/17/2005 11:50:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:53, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >To me, most of the other > >battles with supernatural enemies weren't that different from missions > >involving the warlord of the week, and less Xenaesque than her battles with > >Caesar or mortal Cally and Alti. I might've thrown in one of Norse eps > >because of the costumes. > > Well, I guess I could make several points in favour of Xena's battles with > 'outsiders' - of which, btw, Friend in Need is surely an example. The > first is that, when they were done properly, they were entertaining to watch > > (just as much as the battles with 'regulars' like Callisto or Ares). >> Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I meant it was difficult to say that such battles deserved a higher ranking. Yes, the Norse trilogy was more ambitious and more beautifully produced than Destiny, but it's still a different "riff" on the original. Same with AFIN. It had elements of Debt and Between the Lines/The Way. I couldn't leave AFIN off a "best of" list because of its uniqueness as the series finale. Now, if it had ended with X&G going off into the sunset, I might have a different view about its "originality quotient." > The second is that, if you're a devotee of Xena's personal relationships, > it > was the attacks from 'outside' sources that put a strain on her personal > relationships or threatened them, and thereby I think made them more > interesting. In other words, would the Xena-Gabs relationship have been so > > interesting if external factors like Dahak or the Olympians hadn't given it > a > bit of a prod? >> Quite possibly. I preferred how those strains developed and came to a head more naturally in eps like The Price, The Execution, Dirty Half Dozen, Debt, When In Rome, etc. The cracks were there from the beginning, except Gabs deferred to Xena, or Xena overlooked Gabs' predilection for doing her own thing. As Gabs became more confident, she was bound to question Xena more and rely on her own judgment (poor as it might've been in some cases). I think TPTB wanted the threats to the relationship to be reflected in an epic way, same as everything about Xena had epic consequences. I don't quarrel with that. I agree Dakak and the Olympians brought in a new aspect. I just don't happen to think the girls' issyews necessarily had supernatural causes or wouldn't have occurred anyway. However, I do realize many fans liked the battle with the gods aspect and might not've "bought" the rift otherwise, so I'm perfectly happy focusing on the aspects that I personally found more interesting. Again, all this rating stuff is highly subjective. > > And thirdly, much though I love, for example, the Xena-Ares and > Xerna-Callisto relationships, I doubt whether they alone could have > sustained > interest for 134 eps, without running out of plotlines. >> Yes, that too. > > But to come back and address your point directly, about Xena's inner battles > > - though I like it hugely that Xena _had_ them, I don't particularly want to > > _watch_ them too often. The existence of Xena's background doubts lent > depth to her character. They certainly stopped her becoming one of those > obnoxious arrogant teflon heroes beloved of B-movies. But when they grew > big enough to interfere with her actions, as in Season 4, we got an > indecisive Warrior Princess and I wasn't at all happy. >> LOL! Whereas I loved it. Crusader is one of my all-time favorites, even though it didn't make my 10 best list. I though Najara was a beautifully appropriate villain at that stage, just as Cally was earlier on. Najara stuck her toe in so many of the cracks that X&G tried to pretend they'd sealed in Bitter Suite. I guess that's why I liked Alti as a supernatural villain -- because she also played on Xena's fears -- used psychological weapons to exploit what was going on in Xena's head, more than physical threats like killing Xena or her child. > >>Hmmm, I'd rather see 'best' than 'first'. In that respect, 'first' > does > >>have the advantage of originality. >> > > > >Uh huh. Admittedly, I have mixed emotions, as some of the "firsts" may not > >have been as dramatically powerful as later eps. But there's still a > >surprising freshness about them -- an "innocence" -- that always reminds me > >of themes that attracted me in the first place. > > Well, maybe. The first is always the best in that respect. But it's not > really a fair basis to judge an episode on, IMO - after all, quite a few > fans > now first 'joined' in Season5 or 6, so they could claim exactly the same > virtues of freshness for those eps, I think. >> Very true. Heh, they may even see the earlier eps as derivative. Again, that's why these things are so subjective. Take The Gauntlet. Some folks may have never seen it. It's rarely included as a "true" Xena ep. I didn't see it until maybe the second season. Now, it's very hard for me not to view it as the precursor to Sins -- "original" in how it presented a flawed hero deciding to choose good over evil, pretty much forced into the possibility by her own men. But because Sins was the first ep of the series, I make myself put Gauntlet to the side. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:59:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena In a message dated 4/16/2005 9:02:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, candex@verizon.net writes: > < married to a Roman noble than the girlfriend of a Siberian warlord tottering > around on two broken legs. >> Bwahahahahaha! Oh, lordy, what a description! Certainly a vivid contrast to the Xena we see vaulting off her horse at the beginning of Fates. Plus, we find out she wasn't even the mistress of the main tent until she stole Borias away from his woman. Alti may have had similar designs on Caesar, but she had to go through the legit Empress first. "Tottering around." Bwahahahahahaha! <> What I am saying that Xena would not have > been a ruthless or evil person if her past had been different. What you > seem to be proposing is that Xena is fated to always be Lady MacBeth and > that she can't escape her fate. That no one can escape their fate - the > whole premiss that Xena has promoligated during the show that we are who we > decide to be is false. So if Xena's village had never been attacked by > Cortese she would have been a warlod anyway - Xena is doomed to be a warlord > and evil (until she meets a really strong guy and a small blond) >> I'm with ya, kid, but I'd be real surprised if KT buys this. She sees Fates Xena as wimpy in a way that's not so much about evil or ruthlessness, as about willingly getting up on that cross. > >Or to save Gabrielle. But we'd never, ever seen her as a whingy, whining, > >whimpering coward who gives up fighting and leaves Gabrielle behind in the > >hands of Xena's worst enemies. Who have tried to kill the little blond kid > >twice already. Once for the hell of it and once after Caesar gave his word > >he wouldn't. Oh yeah, I really want to watch this Xena in this ep again. > > Again we disagree. Gabrielle is obviously not in the hands of Xena's > enemies since she is free to ride off and burn down the loom of fate. > Caesar and Alti don't give a crap about Gabrielle onces Xena is in their > clutches - she is perfectly safe. I also don't see Xena as cowardly at all. > She believes that by dying on the cross she is somehow going to make things > right - she may be wrong but she certainly is not cowardly. >> I'm with ya here too. Getting back on that cross when you've remembered how previous crucifixions felt? Deciding that nails hammered through your body parts is a better way to go, than trying to take out some guards you can whip with one hand? Insane, naive maybe. Cowardly? That's just not a word that comes to my mind either. Carry on, Braveheart. KT's got a cross she'll gladly let you have. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:50:06 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Best of Xena? Sez you On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:35, KTL wrote: > Cande Replied: > > Caesar never was a renegade in real life or in the show Xena. He was of > > a patrician family and quite wealthy as I understand it. > > I don't agree with that assessment. Admittedly, I know of Caesar mostly > from Shakespeare's play. But I've also got some free-flowing info or at > least believe I do on his background from somewhere. Do you remember the > triumvirate that was showcased in When In Rome? That was put in place > precisely to prevent one person from gaining too much power. And Caesar, > while from the class that could rise, was just one among thousands of > young men who might rise to ultimate power. Which is a real ripe situation > for intrique and murder. 'Renegade' ? Well, if 'renegade' is usually, I think, meant to suggest someone wild, dangerous and uncontrollable. And that's a near enough fit, (even if not exact), to the Caesar of the show - plotting to get rid of his enemies/competitors for power (e.g. Crassus and Pompey), plotting (possibly) to get rid of Brutus, plotting to sieze power as Emperor.... and that's just in the context of the show. > Speaking of no history. . . > > I've seen on another list where people are ripping up Lucy for apparently > saying during the Fates commentary, something like, "Why should she kiss > her? They don't know each other." The thread was started by someone > saying, "Boy-did she miss the point or what?" But no, she didn't miss the > point at all. What she is pointing out is one of the biggest plot holes in > this whole mess. ... because they get all bent out of shape when Lucy seems to question any aspect of the subtext.... ? ;) Frequently in the commentaries, Lucy says "Why did they do that?" - sometimes because there really is no reason for whatever-it-is, sometimes simply because she's forgotten some plot point (or never grasped it for the simple reason that scenes were shot out-of-sequence). But in Fates (as you noted KT), there really *is* no plot that's relevant after the first half of the flashbacks in 'Destiny'. So she shouldn't have a clue who Gabs is. ('course the subtext-fundies would have us believe that the set of all-possible-Xenas is immutably shackled to the set of all-possible-Gabrielles in all possible universes. Didn't Naiyima say so in Between The Lines? Too bad the Evil Empress Xena in Armageddon Now doesn't seem to have been informed of that, but maybe as a Herc episode that's considered not to count ) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:31:27 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:59, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/17/2005 11:50:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:53, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >To me, most of the other > > >battles with supernatural enemies weren't that different from missions > > >involving the warlord of the week, and less Xenaesque than her battles > > > with Caesar or mortal Cally and Alti. I might've thrown in one of > > > Norse eps because of the costumes. > > > > Well, I guess I could make several points in favour of Xena's battles > > with 'outsiders' - of which, btw, Friend in Need is surely an example. > > The first is that, when they were done properly, they were entertaining > > to watch > > (just as much as the battles with 'regulars' like Callisto or Ares). >> > > Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I meant it was difficult to > say that such battles deserved a higher ranking. Oh, I certainly wasn't saying that Xena's battles with 'outsiders' were *better* than her battles with the regulars. Certainly, I loved Xena's battles with Callisto simply because they were 'personal'. (Ditto Callisto's fights with Ares). OTOH, I think Xena's later battles with her supernatural enemies (in which I think we have to include Alti) were 'better' or more interesting than her early battles with 'warlords of the week', if only because they got more intense and 'darker' in later eps, and - like Xena - I lik dark. > Yes, the Norse trilogy > was more ambitious and more beautifully produced than Destiny, but it's > still a different "riff" on the original. Same with AFIN. It had elements > of Debt and Between the Lines/The Way. I couldn't leave AFIN off a "best > of" list because of its uniqueness as the series finale. Now, if it had > ended with X&G going off into the sunset, I might have a different view > about its "originality quotient." I would not rate the Norse trilogy *higher* than Destiny. To me, Destiny had all the assurance, all the depth, all the intensity of later Xena. Return of Callisto, Intimate Stranger and Ten Little Warlords might have been a good indication that the show was going somewhere interesting and out of the usual, but Destiny was I think the first ep that really went all the way there. > > The second is that, if you're a devotee of Xena's personal relationships, > > it > > was the attacks from 'outside' sources that put a strain on her personal > > relationships or threatened them, and thereby I think made them more > > interesting. In other words, would the Xena-Gabs relationship have been > > so > > interesting if external factors like Dahak or the Olympians hadn't given > > it a bit of a prod? >> > > Quite possibly. I preferred how those strains developed and came to a head > more naturally in eps like The Price, The Execution, Dirty Half Dozen, > Debt, When In Rome, etc. Hmmm... didn't like The Price, didn't like The Execution, didn't mind Dirty Half Dozen (though nobody else seems to like it), loved Debt, liked When in Rome.... but I could make a case for those strains having been provoked by external factors and hostile forces just as much in those eps, as in the Dahak or Olympian eps. Different hostile forces, but same effect. Same thing with the Callisto eps - Xena and Gabs always disagreed over Callisto. > The cracks were there from the beginning, except > Gabs deferred to Xena, or Xena overlooked Gabs' predilection for doing her > own thing. As Gabs became more confident, she was bound to question Xena > more and rely on her own judgment (poor as it might've been in some cases). And we all know how irritating I found that :) > I think TPTB wanted the threats to the relationship to be reflected in an > epic way, same as everything about Xena had epic consequences. I don't > quarrel with that. I agree Dakak and the Olympians brought in a new > aspect. I just don't happen to think the girls' issyews necessarily had > supernatural causes or wouldn't have occurred anyway. Yes, but without external dangers to raise the stakes, they would have just been trivial squabbles of no interest to anyone except fanatical subtexters. Well, to qualify that, maybe of no more intrinsic interest than the squabbles between characters in soaps - and I do NOT watch soaps. :) > However, I do > realize many fans liked the battle with the gods aspect and might not've > "bought" the rift otherwise, so I'm perfectly happy focusing on the aspects > that I personally found more interesting. Again, all this rating stuff is > highly subjective. Well, yes. > > And thirdly, much though I love, for example, the Xena-Ares and > > Xerna-Callisto relationships, I doubt whether they alone could have > > sustained > > interest for 134 eps, without running out of plotlines. >> > > Yes, that too. > LOL! Whereas I loved it. Crusader is one of my all-time favorites, even > though it didn't make my 10 best list. I though Najara was a beautifully > appropriate villain at that stage, just as Cally was earlier on. Najara > stuck her toe in so many of the cracks that X&G tried to pretend they'd > sealed in Bitter Suite. I guess that's why I liked Alti as a supernatural > villain -- because she also played on Xena's fears -- used psychological > weapons to exploit what was going on in Xena's head, more than physical > threats like killing Xena or her child. No, there was no similarity between Najara and Alti's weapons, IMO. Alti's psychological weapons had real physical consequences - watch the fight in Between The Lines. That's a whole different category from Najara's attempts to psych Xena out. I much prefer it when Xena is defeated by superior strength (whether natural or supernatural) rather than just falling victim to her own totally un-Xena-like dithering. > > Well, maybe. The first is always the best in that respect. But it's > > not really a fair basis to judge an episode on, IMO - after all, quite a > > few fans > > now first 'joined' in Season5 or 6, so they could claim exactly the same > > virtues of freshness for those eps, I think. >> > > Very true. Heh, they may even see the earlier eps as derivative. Again, > that's why these things are so subjective. Take The Gauntlet. Some folks > may have never seen it. It's rarely included as a "true" Xena ep. I > didn't see it until maybe the second season. Now, it's very hard for me > not to view it as the precursor to Sins -- "original" in how it presented a > flawed hero deciding to choose good over evil, pretty much forced into the > possibility by her own men. But because Sins was the first ep of the > series, I make myself put Gauntlet to the side. > > -- Ife Why? I could make a darn good case that the Warrior Princess trilogy was far more typical Xena than, say, When Fates Collide or even Deja Vu et al... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:36:26 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:59, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > I'm with ya here too. Getting back on that cross when you've remembered > how previous crucifixions felt? Deciding that nails hammered through your > body parts is a better way to go, than trying to take out some guards you > can whip with one hand? Insane, naive maybe. Cowardly? That's just not a > word that comes to my mind either. Carry on, Braveheart. KT's got a cross > she'll gladly let you have. > > -- Ife Cowardly, no. Just suicidally, insanely stupid. Heck, the Xena of 'Destiny' might have been fooled by Caesar, but she wasn't mentally defective. So where did this one come from? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #103 **************************************