From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #102 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, April 19 2005 Volume 05 : Number 102 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [chakram-refugees] Shiri Appleby alert ["Xena Torres" ] RE: [chakram-refugees] Shiri Appleby alert [Sarah Anne Packard ] [chakram-refugees] 3rd LOCUSTS! Video Clip Now Online at Kit 9 Web Site [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:18:47 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Shiri Appleby alert Well bugger all. I be in Canada. On the bright side, that likely means our Family channel will play it shortly. Mwhahahaha. Was it any good? BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: Sarah Anne Packard >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Shiri Appleby alert >Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:17:12 -0400 (EDT) > >U.S...it's on right now, started at 8 pm EST. :) > >-Sarah- > >On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Xena Torres wrote: > > > US or Canadian alert? > > BATTLE ON XENA! > > > > Xena Torres: Warrior Writer > > http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome > > > > "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the >sword > > never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com > > >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org > > >Subject: [chakram-refugees] Shiri Appleby alert > > >Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:57:40 EDT > > > > > >Shiri Appleby (Tara) will be the star of Everything You Want, a Family > > >Channel film on tonight. It's almost got to be better than Alien > > >Apocalypse > > >or Tarzan. > > > > > >Boeotian > > >========================================================= > > >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > > >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > > >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > > >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > > >========================================================= > > ========================================================= > > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > > ========================================================= >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:40:02 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt - gotta ask On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:53, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > Yeah, but if we're looking for 'typical' Xena eps, it seems to me Xena > > spent > > a lot of time doing battle with various gods, demons, or evil spirits. >> > > Agreed. I'm saying the inner battles resonated more with me personally. I > grudgingly accepted the battle with the gods thing. Except with Ares, who > personified what Xena struggled against within herself. Alti (and immortal > Callisto) embodied great mixtures of Xena's past vs. her present. I liked > the India arc because they also helped illuminate what Xena was made of -- > spiritually, in terms of destiny vs. will. To me, most of the other > battles with supernatural enemies weren't that different from missions > involving the warlord of the week, and less Xenaesque than her battles with > Caesar or mortal Cally and Alti. I might've thrown in one of Norse eps > because of the costumes. Well, I guess I could make several points in favour of Xena's battles with 'outsiders' - of which, btw, Friend in Need is surely an example. The first is that, when they were done properly, they were entertaining to watch (just as much as the battles with 'regulars' like Callisto or Ares). The second is that, if you're a devotee of Xena's personal relationships, it was the attacks from 'outside' sources that put a strain on her personal relationships or threatened them, and thereby I think made them more interesting. In other words, would the Xena-Gabs relationship have been so interesting if external factors like Dahak or the Olympians hadn't given it a bit of a prod? And thirdly, much though I love, for example, the Xena-Ares and Xerna-Callisto relationships, I doubt whether they alone could have sustained interest for 134 eps, without running out of plotlines. But to come back and address your point directly, about Xena's inner battles - - though I like it hugely that Xena _had_ them, I don't particularly want to _watch_ them too often. The existence of Xena's background doubts lent depth to her character. They certainly stopped her becoming one of those obnoxious arrogant teflon heroes beloved of B-movies. But when they grew big enough to interfere with her actions, as in Season 4, we got an indecisive Warrior Princess and I wasn't at all happy. > > Hmmm, I'd rather see 'best' than 'first'. In that respect, 'first' does > > have the advantage of originality. >> > > Uh huh. Admittedly, I have mixed emotions, as some of the "firsts" may not > have been as dramatically powerful as later eps. But there's still a > surprising freshness about them -- an "innocence" -- that always reminds me > of themes that attracted me in the first place. Well, maybe. The first is always the best in that respect. But it's not really a fair basis to judge an episode on, IMO - after all, quite a few fans now first 'joined' in Season5 or 6, so they could claim exactly the same virtues of freshness for those eps, I think. > > And since they tended to repeat > successful eps, the 'first' often was > > the best - consider Sin Trade vs Them > > Bones, Debts vs Purity/Back in the Bottle. OTOH, the counter-example > > is the Callisto eps where (IMO) Return of Callisto and A Necessary Evil > > were way more enjoyable than 'Callisto'. >> > > Oh, yes. Return of Callisto is the first one that made me sit up and take > notice that the series was a lot more than T&A, butt-kicking and campy > humor. The ending stunned me, as I never expected the "hero" to let her > opponent die. > > -- Ife Yes, that was quite a moment. But when I say 'RoC' was more enjoyable than 'Callisto', I was thinking more of Callisto herself - as she went on, so she got better lines and a more powerful sense of ironic humour. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:44:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Shiri Appleby alert On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Xena Torres wrote: > Well bugger all. I be in Canada. On the bright side, that likely means our > Family channel will play it shortly. Mwhahahaha. > Was it any good? Eh...not really, methinks. :) It wasn't horrible either, but...it's about a girl (in her 20's) who still has an imaginary boyfriend. *cringe* - -Sarah- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 04:35:39 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Best of Xena? Sez you KT wrote: >> >> Xena the wife of the renegade Caesar did not live a life of wealth and >> respect. When we meet her in this life, yes, they have slashed, burned, >> conquered, murdered, connived, assassinated, broken treaties, destroyed >> nations, etc on their way to the throne Cande Replied: > Caesar never was a renegade in real life or in the show Xena. He was of > a patrician family and quite wealthy as I understand it. I don't agree with that assessment. Admittedly, I know of Caesar mostly from Shakespeare's play. But I've also got some free-flowing info or at least believe I do on his background from somewhere. Do you remember the triumvirate that was showcased in When In Rome? That was put in place precisely to prevent one person from gaining too much power. And Caesar, while from the class that could rise, was just one among thousands of young men who might rise to ultimate power. Which is a real ripe situation for intrique and murder. When your daddy ain't the king, you don't become king without blood on your hands. Sometimes, even if your daddy was the king, it's still a bloody succession. You'd better protect your back from your brothers. And your uncles. And their wives. Also, Caesar's sin, the reason he was assassinated by Brutus and Cassius was because he was trying to destroy Rome as a Republic and make himself an emperor. This is what I believed about Caesar. I went searching on the internet to see if I was anywhere near correct on this. And here's a nice succinct link on his history. (That of course pretty much follows what I thought or else I wouldn't point it out to you.) http://heraklia.fws1.com/ Cande: > Conquering nations and plotting your rise to power in Rome hardly made > you an outcast but just one of the boys. And all of those boys were trying their damnedest to kill each other. I got curious as to who actually was the first emperor of Rome. And man--it was little Octavius--Eve's babysitter! Look here: http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95sep/augustus.html And in this excerpt from the above link, we catch a glimpse of the bloody hands of those who clawed their way to the top. "In 43 B.C., Octavian, Marcus Antonius (Marc Antonyone of his uncle's top lieutenants) and another Roman General, Marcus Lepidus, formed the second Triumvirate to rule Rome. After taking power, the Triumvirate proscribed and slaughtered thousands of political enemies, firmly establishing their control of the Roman government." I wonder why in this world would Brutus and Cassius not assassinate Caesar when he tried to declare himself emperor and destroy the Roman republic, as they did in the real and the literary world. Oh, of course, that's right-because Caesar didn't crucify Xena. This whole world, everything in it, hinges on that. On that one decision of Caesar's. Cande: Xena's life would have been significantly better being > married to a Roman noble than the girlfriend of a Siberian warlord > tottering around on two broken legs. More physically comfortable yes. Less savage, I'm not so sure. Cande: As for Lao Ma there never was any indication in > the episode that Xena, herself, was plotting to betray Lao Ma. In fact > things were significantly better for LM since she was empress of China and obviously did not have her head operated on by her dear little boy. > But why wouldn't she be willing to follow Caesar's plans and betray Lao Ma alongside him? She and Lao Ma have no history. She's just one more succulent target to add to Caesar and Mrs. Caesar's glory. Speaking of no history. . . I've seen on another list where people are ripping up Lucy for apparently saying during the Fates commentary, something like, "Why should she kiss her? They don't know each other." The thread was started by someone saying, "Boy-did she miss the point or what?" But no, she didn't miss the point at all. What she is pointing out is one of the biggest plot holes in this whole mess. When Caesar inexplicably is able to overpower the Fates, chain them up (Fugate could at least have written a line that those were Hephaestis' chains which would have made them standing there being trapped by holding their loose, dangling chains in front of themselves a little less ridiculous) and cut the thread, he creates a whole new world. This is not a parallel universe with the regular world existing alongside it. This world exists only because the other one has been destroyed. The characters have lived this alternative life INSTEAD of the one we saw. So this world is now the only world there is. Therefore, nobody lived the lives we'd been following for the last six ears. Therefore, these women have no shared history. Therefore, there is no possible way they could have memories of it. And therefore, Lucy's comment is absolutely dead on. These women do not know each other. So there is no reason for them to feel any strong bond or recognize any connection between them. They should be reacting to each other exactly the way they did in Sins of the Past. Does anyone think that Xena and Gabrielle should have kissed in Sins? Like when Gabrielle saved Xena from the stoning, say? I've never heard anybody say that. And of course, when Alti taps into their memories, there is no way in Tartarus that the memories of lives never lived could be pulled out of these peoples' minds. Really, even Caesar shouldn't remember the previous "take". Because once he changed the world, from that point on, he lived this life and only this life. But that's a pretty typical plot point of these types of stories-the main character, the main engine of change, knows what she/he's done. So while truly not logical, it is traditional in "people returning to the past to change it" stories. And boy, mistakes within mistakes, Alti also somehow manages to pull memories out of people who weren't even present when the non-existent memories were created. Most egregious example of this-we see Xena watching Alti and Caesar having celebratory sex during the time that she's outside the building dying on the cross. But in Xena's "painful memory", she's in there in the room, watching her husband and his lover screw. (And Lucy being Lucy, she shows Xena getting off on it. LOL!) KT: >> I just can't buy that that Xena's past was all that different from our >> Xena's past. The life she lived was far from a pastoral, peaceful life >> of safety, ease and no conflict. This Xena has continued to be at war her whole life and still is. She's Lady MacBeth, if she (or MacBeth) had had less conscience. > Cande > Xena is obviously a warrior in this episode - note the helmet, the war > horse, and the bow and arrow. What I am saying that Xena would not have > been a ruthless or evil person if her past had been different. What you > seem to be proposing is that Xena is fated to always be Lady MacBeth and > that she can't escape her fate. That no one can escape their fate - the > whole premiss that Xena has promoligated during the show that we are who > we decide to be is false. So if Xena's village had never been attacked by > Cortese she would have been a warlod anyway - Xena is doomed to be a > warlord and evil (until she meets a really strong guy and a small blond) >> No, no this is the exact opposite of what I believe and what I believe Xena believed. But it is exactly what Fugate proposes about Xena. What I see is that this is the same Xena who chose to take up arms and fight Cortez. This is the same Xena who became a pirate, burning villages and capturing enemies for ransom. This is the same Xena who said to Caesar in Destiny, "Why don't you and I work together?" and "This life I'm living is beginning to bore me. I'd love to join forces with you." Caesar replies, "So you want to help me conquer the world." X: "Why not? We'd make an unstoppable team." C: "Indeed. I bet you know a lot-- about conquest." X: "Yes-- I love it. Pursuing the enemy; breaking down his defenses; cutting off his only path of retreat; and then closing for the kill." (Thanks to Whoosh for the quotes.) That same young Xena also lived in this world. I would say this woman really LIKES battle. And with partnering with Caesar and helping him claw his way up to emperor of Rome, she got exactly what turned her on--plenty of blood, gore, conquering, destruction and killing. And this is also the same Xena who chose to be a Lady McBeth. It is Fugate's proposition that Xena is bound to her fate, that she has no choice in determining the way her life goes. As is obvious from that dumb line that she has Xena intone, that "Everything happens exactly as it should". I don't agree with that take on Xena. I know and love the Xena who says things like, "I don't accept defeat. There are always choices." I know and love the Xena to whom Gabrielle says, "Xena, you have said we ALWAYS determine our own fate. It's not written for us. You've always believed that." I know and love the Xena who never, ever gave up no matter how harsh the battle or how strong the opposition. I just don't know this woman who was that young marauding pirate who spent her whole life in warfare and conquest and yet folds up and becomes someone who meekly gives up and who, without any grievous wounds, no snapped spinal cord, no broken legs, accepts being crucified just because Caesar wants her crucified. (Or wanted her crucified in the world she never lived in and so could not be remembering.) And who leaves Gabrielle behind in the exact same situation she was in the second time Caesar ordered someone to kill her-riding away to "safety". KT: >> And besides, we've seen Xena who had no memory of who she was in a >> number of eps before (Chakram, The Ring Trilogy) and she was still immutably Xena. Still noble, still willing to fight and die for the greater good. > Cande: > But she is not Lady MacBeth - Xena is not intrinsically evil as you seem > to be arguing before. So why couldn't Xena given the opportunity to gain > power in a more legimate way not be a good and noble ruler. > > I have always believed in Xena's core of goodness. And going by those other eps I cited, so have most of the writers. I have never considered her intrinsically evil. I compared her to Lady McBeth only in this ep more in terms of her high ambition. And her willingness to do anything to attain her goal. If she had chosen to turn her back on her own ambitions to be a conqueror, if she hadn't chosen to throw her lot in with Caesar in his rampage towards the throne of Rome, then there'd be no comparison to make between her and Lady McBeth. But these were choices Xena made with absolute free will. She wanted to rule the world. And she was willing to do whatever it took to attain that. Including murder, destruction, etc., all of the above. Just like real Xena. KT >> Or to save Gabrielle. But we'd never, ever seen her as a whingy, >> whining, >> whimpering coward who gives up fighting and leaves Gabrielle behind in >> the >> hands of Xena's worst enemies. Who have tried to kill the little blond >> kid >> twice already. Once for the hell of it and once after Caesar gave his >> word >> he wouldn't. Oh yeah, I really want to watch this Xena in this ep again. > Cande: > Again we disagree. Gabrielle is obviously not in the hands of Xena's > enemies since she is free to ride off and burn down the loom of fate. > Caesar and Alti don't give a crap about Gabrielle onces Xena is in their > clutches - she is perfectly safe. I don't think prior events in this ep support that conclusion. Earlier, Xena makes a deal with Caesar-if he lets Gabrielle go, she will stand by her man and do his bidding. And Caesar's agreement is barely out of his mouth before he sends Alti off to kill Gabrielle regardless of his deal with Xena. Why? Because he's just a vicious little sh*t who hates Xena and just HAS to renege on any deal. And yet, Xena trusts that he won't go after Gabrielle after she's dead. Stupid. Gullible. Cande: I also don't see Xena as cowardly at > all. > She believes that by dying on the cross she is somehow going to make > things > right - she may be wrong but she certainly is not cowardly. How does she figure that? There is no way in hell that she could possibly know what happened in a life that never happened so she has no idea that Caesar killing her was as Fugate postulates, a good or at least necessary thing. Why is her dying on the cross "right"? I just do not see the Xena who was the same young woman as the regular Xena believing that "Everything happens as it should" and that her fate is predetermined by someone else's actions. There is no reason for Xena to get up on that cross. It resolves nothing. It creates nothing. It doesn't constitute a sacrifice for the Greater Good. It's just plain stupid, idiotic, totally lame and bogus. Xena dying on the cross didn't make Evil Xena anyway. It was the murder of M'Lila by Caesar's man that made Evil Xena. As Xena herself proclaims. "A new Xena is born tonight. With a new purpose in life." So Xena dying on the cross in Fates is an empty and totally useless gesture. Cande: Again I have to > point out that this just may not have been resourceful at saving herself > simply because her experinces are different. That is the point of the the episode - different experience would change how we react in the world. >> Yes, but nobody gets to create themselves as an Empress, sharing the throne with their partner without being a resourceful person. This woman is competent, capable and successful and fully in charge of her own life. Well, at least until the moment she gives up and gets on the cross because Caesar wants her to. KT: >> However, I must say, warrior Xena (not "poodle Xena"--WORST hair of the >> series) in this ep does look hot. Especially for someone of her age. >> Let's >> see now--she was probably about 17 when Cortez came, add ten years of >> her >> "past", that makes her about 27 when we "meet her" in Sins of the Past, >> add six years of the show time, that makes her 33, add 25 years in the >> ice >> cave, that makes her 58 and one year of wading around in the surf with >> the >> Valkyries--the woman is 59 years old in this ep, yet she doesn't look a >> day over 30. Goooood genes. > Cande: > Well I think your math is off. In Caesar's world there would have been no > 25 year ice nap. So Xena is probably in her early thirties. >> >> My math is fine. It's Fugate's math that's oblivious to the history of the series. Caesar does his deed in Xena's present. Which is post the fall of the Greek pantheon, which we know because Caesar mentions this historical fact as being the reason behind him being able to chain up the Fates. (Snort.) Which means that it's about 60 years after Xena's birth. Caesar makes a new present by changing the past. However, there is no place anywhere in the script or in any filmed image that suggests that Caesar somehow had the power to halt the revised loom at a point before it wove itself back up to the chronological present. There's nothing to indicate that the loom left any time out, that it somehow stopped itself before it knitted up the whole raveled sleeve of time. If we are out of thin air to decide that this wasn't a chronologically analogous world, then why do the grrls return to the current present? If Caesar had somehow stopped the loom partway, why when it was destroyed, did the grrls not wake up wherever they were in the analogous present of that alternative world? (Which most likely would have been the cave, I would guess. Caesar needed some time to overcome the world.) But no, they show up right back from where they were rewoven out of-about 60 years after Xena's birth. While there are many lapses of logic in Fates, I think the worst two are the ones I've mentioned here. That nobody lived the live everybody remembers (LAUGH) and that Xena, never having been put on ice for 25 years, should be about 60 years old. And of course, everyone else should also be an appropriate age to match the present they were snatched from. (Or do Caesar and Brutus get to be the age they are because they were dead and the dead don't seem to age in XWP?) Fugate obviously just wanted to write the grrls in love scenes. Plot be damned. I've read on lists that Fugate said somewhere that some of the dialogue came right out of her journals. I'm gonna bet that one of those lines was, "I write about love, but I've never felt it before." And one of the first rules of writing is? "Write what you know". I think that applies here. Grin. And as I've said before, yes I know that many eps have major plot holes also. But when Xena is Xena, or when Xena is not Xena yet still Xena as in those, "I've lost my memory and I can't get up eps", I tend to not notice the plot holes and story inconsistancies so much. Well, at least the first 15 times or so that I watch an ep. But when we get such a defamation of Xena's character as this, such a no way in hell Xena, how could I NOT notice the horribly holey plot. And all those endless inexplicable details that all taken together come up as a tale full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. KT > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:18:13 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] 3rd LOCUSTS! Video Clip Now Online at Kit 9 Web Site 3rd LOCUSTS! Video Clip Now Online at Kit 9 Web Site Cowboy boots and Lucy getting tongue-tied when she had to say, "The biggest bug zapper the world has ever seen." Hey! We get to see the whole movie this coming Sunday! Sharon outback@creationent.com Official Xena Fan Club ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #102 **************************************