From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #100 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, April 17 2005 Volume 05 : Number 100 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I was looking at the list today again and I was surprised that so many season > 5 episodes made the list but then I remembered that the voting took place just > around the time season 5 was released on DVD. I think what happened is that > people had season 5 fresh in their minds and voted for those episodes. I think these were very good choices compared to some of the ones we got from other seasons. The "chosen" were Fallen Angel, Lyre, Lyre, Amphipolis Under Seige and Motherhood. None of these are from the Lucy lite awful middle stretch of season five. And for me, while none of them make the rarified ranks of my "excellent" category, all of them are in the next one, the "very good" category. Fallen Angel and Lyre, Lyre are classic, pushing the envelope Xena. From Dante to Bye Bye Birdie. I love Amphipolis Under Seige--it covers some of the main themes of the show--the enduring, undying love of mothers towards their children, the Xena and Ares conflict mix of attraction/repel, Xena and Gabrielle working as a team in cahoots together, keeping their eye on the goal while managing to annoy the hell out of each other, it's got witty dialogue, sexual tension and joking galore, and some fun new female gods/warriors. What's not to like? Motherhood is also classic Xena--with Xena again as grizzly mom, high mythic drama and the beautiful gift of love from Ares to Xena-- surrendinging his godhood to restore life to not only Eve who had to be restored to save Xena's life, (since we all know she would never have stopped hacking at Athena until Athena killed her), but also giving life back to Gabrielle. Just because Xena loves her. Season five as I've said before, is the season of great, transforming love. And Motherhood is one of the eps that showcase this. So yeah, to me, these are much better picks than some of the other seasons'. As for Lyre, Lyre, being picked as one of the "Best of Xena", I'm really leaning towards a Joxer fan explanation. Seriously. > > Now as to all the gnashing of teeth over WFC and OAAAA being on the Best of > Xena lists I am surprised that anyone would be surprised that they made the > list. Oh you drama queen! (But of course you are--otherwise you'd laugh, laugh I say, at When Fates Curdle.) The gnashing of teeth was far more pronounced over the lack of the Debt rather than the inclusion of Fates. Besides, this poll as we all know is totally bogus--I think most of the posts on this thread appear to be enjoying jeering at it more than anything else. I was not at all surprised that OAAA made it. Many, many fans really like that one. The redoubtable md was just teasing me about it because I find Xena's dithering in it absolutely hysterical. There's just something about the endlessly repeated: G: X: G: URK! X: G: "PATOOTIE!" X: "ARRRRGHHHH! That's it! We're going!" G: "No we're not. NOW DROP THAT LITTER Whoopsie NOW! X: "Oh. Okay. Uh--have I told you lately that I love you?" that totally cracks me up. As I've said before, if Xena had just kept SAYING how she hated having to make a stand there and thus let Gabrielle die for the greater good, it would have been much more believable to me, since Xena never has problems expressing her feelings. But Xena never dithers (except for parts of season four.) It didn't surprise me in the least that this one wasn't written by the regular staff. Another of those one time wonders. Hmmm. Now that's interesting in itself--that Gene O'Neill and Noreen Tobin created one of the most loved eps of all times. But never wrote another one. I saw online that they wrote some of Hercules' eps--Armageddon Now, for instance. And have written for other sci-fi genre TV shows also. But OAAA was all about showing that the rift was over, so this was a definite agenda one. As such, reassuring some of the more "sensitive" fans that everything was fine now apparently trumped portraying Xena consistantly. Happily, this seldom happened--in the hands of the "masters" like RJ, Manheim and Sears, Xena was almost always Xena, even when there was an agenda the storyline wanted to put out there. Like in Bitter Suite. They are two of the most popular episodes among the fans. I would argue over Fates being classed as a runaway fan favorite. There are many vocal Fates fans, yes, just like there's many vocal I hate FIN fans. But as Mark pointed out, being vocal doesn't mean being a majority. Not one of my close friends (and while not legion, they are maybe a company and very good company at that) considers Fates even a very good ep. Most of them like Lucy's outfit in the beginning, Lucy's acting (even though all of them say it's certainly no Xena they'd recognize nor ever want to watch week after week) and one of them even likes the cell scene--again for Lucy's acting in that. (Ummmm, hmmmm--two of them might like the cell scene. One of my big dyke friends is a big cry baby when it comes to Xena being all noble in love.) What I've seen on many lists is that many of those vocal fans who love Fates praise it primarily in terms of it being the anti-FIN. If you hate FIN and love ragging on it, you are very welcome in the I Love Fates contingent. And encouraged to rage out, "Fates should have been the last ep!" (NOTE: I'm not saying this is true about every Fates fan. Some people actually do like Fates just 'cause they like it. Hooooooo.) I also have > to confess that they are also favorites of mine. I especially liked WFC > probably for the very reason most of you all didn't like it. I thought it was > an interesting take on what would have happened if Xena's history was changed. > I was not upset the Xena didn't act like Xena because I expected that Xena > would behaved differently if her experiences were different. I think it is > perfectly reasonable to assume that if she lived a life of wealth and respect > she would not have been a ruthless warlord but that her more benevolent side > would emerge while still being a warrior. While I hesitate to dip into the details of why Fates is so lame and bogus to me again, uh. . . I will. Xena the wife of the renegade Caesar did not live a life of wealth and respect. When we meet her in this life, yes, they have slashed, burned, conquered, murdered, connived, assassinated, broken treaties, destroyed nations, etc on their way to the throne and are cureently enjoying one of their few peaceful moments. Between solidfying their conquests and adding a new plume to their cap by betraying and conquering Lao Ma and Chin. I just can't buy that that Xena's past was all that different from our Xena's past. The life she lived was far from a pastoral, peaceful life of safety, ease and no conflict. This Xena has continued to be at war her whole life and still is. She's Lady MacBeth, if she (or MacBeth) had had less conscience. And besides, we've seen Xena who had no memory of who she was in a number of eps before (Chakram, The Ring Trilogy) and she was still immutably Xena. Still noble, still willing to fight and die for the greater good. Or to save Gabrielle. But we'd never, ever seen her as a whingy, whining, whimpering coward who gives up fighting and leaves Gabrielle behind in the hands of Xena's worst enemies. Who have tried to kill the little blond kid twice already. Once for the hell of it and once after Caesar gave his word he wouldn't. Oh yeah, I really want to watch this Xena in this ep again. However, I must say, warrior Xena (not "poodle Xena"--WORST hair of the series) in this ep does look hot. Especially for someone of her age. Let's see now--she was probably about 17 when Cortez came, add ten years of her "past", that makes her about 27 when we "meet her" in Sins of the Past, add six years of the show time, that makes her 33, add 25 years in the ice cave, that makes her 58 and one year of wading around in the surf with the Valkyries--the woman is 59 years old in this ep, yet she doesn't look a day over 30. Goooood genes. Also I think if Xena hadn't come > along Gabrielle would have figured a way out of Podunk and made something of > herself possibly because Xena as empress made it easier for women to get an > education. So there are my thoughts on that. > But hell, Gabrielle already knew how to read and write in the regular world. Which was highly unusual for any peasant never mind girl peasants then. > I however agree that The Debt, Sacrifice and Sin Trade should been voted as > one episode. Yeah--I have NEVER understood why some people do that. KT Probably if that happened they would have made it to the DVD. > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 23:01:44 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena - ----- Original Message ----- From: "KTL" To: "Cheryl Ande" Cc: Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Best of Xena > > > Xena the wife of the renegade Caesar did not live a life of wealth and > respect. When we meet her in this life, yes, they have slashed, burned, > conquered, murdered, connived, assassinated, broken treaties, destroyed > nations, etc on their way to the throne and are cureently enjoying one of > their few peaceful moments. Between solidfying their conquests and adding > a new plume to their cap by betraying and conquering Lao Ma and Chin. Caesar never was a renegade in real life or in the show Xena. He was of a patrician family and quite wealthy as I understand it. Conquering nations and plotting your rise to power in Rome hardly made you an outcast but just one of the boys. Xena's life would have been significantly better being married to a Roman noble than the girlfriend of a Siberian warlord tottering around on two broken legs. As for Lao Ma there never was any indication in the episode that Xena, herself, was plotting to betray Lao Ma. In fact things were significantly better for LM since she was empress of China and obviously did not have her head operated on by her dear little boy. > > I just can't buy that that Xena's past was all that different from our > Xena's past. The life she lived was far from a pastoral, peaceful life of > safety, ease and no conflict. This Xena has continued to be at war her > whole life and still is. She's Lady MacBeth, if she (or MacBeth) had had > less conscience. Xena is obviously a warrior in this episode - note the helmet, the war horse, and the bow and arrow. What I am saying that Xena would not have been a ruthless or evil person if her past had been different. What you seem to be proposing is that Xena is fated to always be Lady MacBeth and that she can't escape her fate. That no one can escape their fate - the whole premiss that Xena has promoligated during the show that we are who we decide to be is false. So if Xena's village had never been attacked by Cortese she would have been a warlod anyway - Xena is doomed to be a warlord and evil (until she meets a really strong guy and a small blond) > > And besides, we've seen Xena who had no memory of who she was in a number > of eps before (Chakram, The Ring Trilogy) and she was still immutably > Xena. Still noble, still willing to fight and die for the greater good. But she is not Lady MacBeth - Xena is not intrinsically evil as you seem to be arguing before. So why couldn't Xena given the opportunity to gain power in a more legimate way not be a good and noble ruler. > Or to save Gabrielle. But we'd never, ever seen her as a whingy, whining, > whimpering coward who gives up fighting and leaves Gabrielle behind in the > hands of Xena's worst enemies. Who have tried to kill the little blond kid > twice already. Once for the hell of it and once after Caesar gave his word > he wouldn't. Oh yeah, I really want to watch this Xena in this ep again. Again we disagree. Gabrielle is obviously not in the hands of Xena's enemies since she is free to ride off and burn down the loom of fate. Caesar and Alti don't give a crap about Gabrielle onces Xena is in their clutches - she is perfectly safe. I also don't see Xena as cowardly at all. She believes that by dying on the cross she is somehow going to make things right - she may be wrong but she certainly is not cowardly. Again I have to point out that this just may not have been resourceful at saving herself simply because her experinces are different. That is the point of the the episode - different experience would change how we react in the world. > > However, I must say, warrior Xena (not "poodle Xena"--WORST hair of the > series) in this ep does look hot. Especially for someone of her age. Let's > see now--she was probably about 17 when Cortez came, add ten years of her > "past", that makes her about 27 when we "meet her" in Sins of the Past, > add six years of the show time, that makes her 33, add 25 years in the ice > cave, that makes her 58 and one year of wading around in the surf with the > Valkyries--the woman is 59 years old in this ep, yet she doesn't look a > day over 30. Goooood genes. Well I think your math is off. In Caesar's world there would have been no 25 year ice nap. So Xena is probably in her early thirties. > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #100 **************************************