From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #58 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, March 1 2005 Volume 05 : Number 058 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] academy award spider-man 2 [Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] academy award spider-man 2 anybody catch the awards tonight? spiderman-2 won for special effects. recipients mentioned sam raimi. L ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:04:34 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season ... On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:33, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > As you pointed out, 'technically' it could be considered rape (still > > depends > > on the definition you use though), but in that case, yes, so should what > > Callisto did for Xena in FA. Btw, I don't recall ever hearing TPTB > > saying whether they thought that was 'okay' or not, actually. Don't > > fall into the > > trap of thinking 'because they showed it, they approved of it'. >> > > I appreciate your concern for my naivete, but you needn't worry about my > falling into any "traps." I didn't comment on whether or what TPTB > approved. But you _DID_. You explicitly said that presumably TPTB thought it (Callisto giving Xena a baby) was okay. > > For what it's worth, I saw The Deliverer for the first time with my wife > > before I'd read any of the controversy on the Internet, and it never > > occurred > > to _either_ of us that it was anything other than a rather nasty bit of > > demonic possession - until we saw the following episode. So please do > > not assume that what was obvious to you in that scene, was obvious to > > everybody - because it wasn't. >. > > I don't believe I assumed anything of the sort. I said from the start that > I had no problems with the scene itself. I didn't have a problem with the > pregnancy (at least not on those grounds we're discussing). I personally > saw something unpleasant happening to Gabs. I didn't focus on rape at > all. My point was that, once I learned of the pregnancy, I couldn't ignore > how it had occurred. I could perfectly well understand why others defined > and reacted to it as they did. In fact, I would've preferred TPTB not > dance around the issue, just like they were pretty straight forward about > the violence and other sexual aspects of the show. They were forced by circumstances into 'dancing around' the issue, simply because the story leaked before the episode aired. And I think the reactions were exacerbated by Gabfundies ('how *dare* they do that to Gabs!') which doubtless made it difficult for TPTB to say (after the event) 'Yeah, so it's rape. So what? Xena got crucified' or words to that effect. (Most of the rest - and my replies - is just repetitions of the above arguments in other words so in the interests of bandwidth I've snipped it). > That's fine. I don't claim to know what he said or whether he understood > why others didn't agree. As I said above, it suggests to me that, in this > instance, he did indeed view Gabs as a plot device. Dahak's baby was the > important thing, not what happened to Gabs to produce the little devil. > Nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand the reluctance to > acknowledge that it necessitated a method to impregnate prone, helpless, > unwilling, seemingly uncomfortable Gabs without it looking like rape. > Admittedly, a "toughie," but apparently successfully executed for you, > Sears and many others. Admittedly nothing of the sort. Not tough at all. It didn't look like rape to me. It didn't even occur to me, viewing it, that it might conceivably be 'rape'. Most rapes don't involve tongues of flame hovering in mid-air, after all. If it looked like anyhitng, it was demonic sacrifice. You know, just like what was apparently going to happen to prone, helpless, unwilling, seemingly uncomfortable Meridian on that same altar if Gabs hadn't stepped in? > > I'm not the biggest Steve Sears fan (he's too much of a subtexter/Gabfan > > for my liking) but he was ambushed over that Deliverer incident. >> > > Once again, I see we're on two wave lengths. Disregard all I said above. > Yes, I agree, it's too bad poor, helpless Steve was laid out and attacked > like that against his wishes. I hope his resulting delicate condition > wasn't permanent. > > -- Ife See? Sarcasm. Now why anybody (such as Steve) would bother to have anything to do with fans, when they show their thanks by turning on him, I just cannot imagine. In my view, if someone does you a favour**, you don't repay them by turning round and kicking them in the teeth. ** Such as, spending time chatting with you on the Nutforum. Reflect on this - if Steve, when being harangued for an answer, had said 'Yes she gets raped' or even 'No comment' (which would have amounted to exactly the same thing, confirmation of the rumour) - he could conceivably have been out of a job. Shows take this sort of thing seriously and it wouldn't necessarily have been Rob Tapert's decision either, it might have come from the studio. It's a bit more serious for someone in Steve's position than for some fan for whom it's just a game. Some shows would never have permitted their staff to go near fans, still less chat on the Internet or attend conventions etc. Some shows (possibly most shows) would never allow websites to use their copyright material in the way the Xena sites have done. I think the attacks on Steve were blatant abuse of that consideration by some fans. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:14:55 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Woodhill - the saga continues On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:56, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/26/2005 3:45:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Anyway, walking over the devastated area, a sudden horrific thought > > occurred > > to me - suppose TPTB didn't _get_ the idea from the logging. Suppose > > they had the idea first and, in the interests of continuity, they > > suggested to Carter Holt Forests that that would be a suitable area to > > include in their logging programme. Surely they wouldn't. Would they? > > > > Okay, I guess they wouldn't really. Still, it's a nicely horrific > > thought to tantalise myself with > > You know, I was thinking these treks must be relaxing for you -- nice > strolls down XWP memory lane. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps you might > consider taking a break? Like maybe three or more months? Go with the > wife to a shopping mall filled with mundane consumer items? Nothing with > trees or waterfalls. > > -- Ife But you don't understand... I find a five-mile hike around Xena locations (it should be much less, like about two, but by the time I've backtracked and found some other interesting-looking avenue to investigate, it always ends up at 5 :) - much less tiring than waiting around some shopping mall while the missus tries to restrain herself from buying the whole place. Besides, shopping malls are usually really really slack - full of clothes shops and shoe shops - *no* hardware stores, no back-street computer/electronics shops, no car accessory shops, no second-hand bookshops.... purgatory. :( cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:32:16 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:19, Xena Torres wrote: > >Yes, but you don't (I hope) go issuing threats or slandering those who > >don't share your enthusiasm? > > Well, I might smack them in the head...lol! No, to each his own. I don't > care if you HATE the eps I love. We all like different things. The > important thing is, if you must, attack the ep, not the fans of the ep or > the people involved with the ep. Just because an ep sucks, doesn't mean you > should slander TPTB. They will make mistakes too. You can say, "That ep > sucked SO BAD!" but you should never say, "Thw writer is an IDIOT who > should be gab dragged!" That is BAD. :P > > >Oh, there was a firestorm over that (no pun intended). Part of it was > >that some moron leaked a spoiler that Gabs was going to be raped, > > Okay, yes. I remember all that. I thought you were talking about the script > so I was confused. ;) > > >then whenthe ep aired there was all sorts of accusations including that > >TPTB 'lied to > >the fans' (sound familiar?) Now, why on earth TPTB should be obligated > >to > >confirm spoilers I cannot imagine. What did they *expect* Steve to say? > > LOL! Rob too! He said Xena would NOT die! Actually, he said Xena AND > Gabrielle would not die, so maybe it WASN'T really a lie. ;) Yes, though that's kinda hairsplitting... I think he just changed his mind between the interview and the making of the ep. In fact, we know he did. > >Besides which, in Steve's view (and mine!), what happened in Deliverer was > >not 'rape as we know >it'. So then he was accused, utterly illogically, > >of condoning rape. > > See, now that made NO sense to me. Whether you see it as such or not...um, > LOTS of shows have rape in them. Watch like ANY copy show for crying out > loud. > > >Ack! Spoilers!!! I'm only half way through S2 so far. I'll do my > > best to forget you said that. > > Ack, ack! I thought you said you didn't watch "Alias." Sorry, sorry. I > thought season two was safe. I would NEVER post spoilers about season 4. Actually, I've got the DVD's as far as Season 3. I'm making them last.... > >Who's going to tell them? I don't recall any of the Amazons for example > >commenting on the fact that Xena had just offed most of the Olympians. > > *tsk* Check the teaser again, cr. Varia DID know. > VARIA > Xena, its said that you have the power to kill gods. (snip) > Last moment of the teaser. I thought you thought this episode was great? OK, I admit it! I'd forgotten that. > You need to watch it again. ;) Hee hee. Actually, I just watched a little bit of it again.... the bit where Ares was 'destroying the Amazon forest'. See my other posts for why.... > >Well, I think in that respect you'd be in a minority, because my > > impression is that the Ring trilogy are some of the best-liked eps of S6. > > Yeah, I know. I should correct myself - I DID like "The Ring." I was bored > by "The Rheingold' and "Return of the Valkyrie." Beowulf and Odin and the > Valkyries all sucked and could have been so much cooler! And Brunhilda for > the matter. Whinny little brat. ;) I liked Brunnhilde, for no very good reason - maybe I just liked Brittney Powell. And I liked Beowulf, too. Odin, no... the Odin in Herc had far more Norse-godliness about him, I thought. > >Oh, I wasn't really interested in the romance with Anthony.... but the > >sets > >were great, the story was good (with doublecrosses all round) > > Oh yeah, all that ROCKED, but was greatly overshadowed by the stupid love > interest crap. Bah! > >Not just that - but it's nothing but subtext. Great if yer a subtexter, > >but absolutely nothing in it >for me > > *waves hand* I'm not a subtexter. BUT I am a big fan of the Xena/Gab > relationship. You hate Gab, so that's understandable that you don't like > eps where Xena's all mushy with Gab. Don't exactly *hate* Gab. What I hate is eps where Xena lets her get away with doing stupid things. But you're right, my unenthusiasm for Gabs is one reason why I don't care for the subtext. I could far more readily find interest in subtext with M'Lila or Akemi. But in any case, I don't like mush either. > Tee hee. But, even if you hate the > relationship, come on, that fight scene! ;) And you must admit the writing > was great, the directing was great, the acting was great - thus - great > episode. ;) The writing? - didn't notice it (except for the geographical / historical blunders). Honestly, I can't see where the directing, the cinematography, or the acting was particularly exceptional, compared with, say, moments in The Debt or Sin Trades or Friend in Need. Or even the fight scene. Actually, I'm not a fan for most fight scenes... now I think of it, many of the fight scenes I really remember are Xena vs one opponent - like the fight in Between The Lines, the flying fight in Sin Trade, the fight of Xena (as Callisto) vs Callisto (as Xena) in Intimate Strangers ... and so on. Maybe there's more personal intensity in it that way. (snip) > I didn't REALLY care for "Clones" except I had to enjoy the making > fun of us. We can take it! Some of ''us" apparently couldn't :( > And I'm sure we all saw ourselves. Plus, you know, ALTI! ;) > > >But then, I'd rate the Herc clip shows Yes Virginia and For Those of You > >Just Joining Us right up there with Clones. > > No way! "Yes Virgina" beats ALL! "Just Joining Us" sucked. :P TOTALLY > DIDN'T use Hudson and she was the best in the first one. ;) I LOVE Virgina. Well, yes, I do rate 'Virginia' well above 'Joining Us'... and I agree with your comment about Hudson. She was great as Liz Friedman in Virginia. And of course her run-ins with 'Jerry Patrick Brown' were a neat reflection of Callisto and Ares in Armageddon Now. > >Yes, exactly the feeling I had with 'Full Circle'. IMO, God Fearing Child > >was a far more dramatic finale for the Herc story. > > Yes. Very. That was the "Hercules" finale. ;) But again, still not, you > know, FINISHED. :) > > >If you mean 'Farscape - PK Wars', I've been keeping spoiler-free - do NOT > >spoil me! > > I do mean the Peace Wars. I would NEVER give that away. That hasn't even > aired in Canada yet (airs at end of March). I got it from a US friend of > mine, and then bought the DVD of course. ;) BTW cr - Farscape DVDs - pricy, > but UNCUT! Sweeeeeet. Added footage RULES! I've got the Region 1 ADV DVD's of Seasons 1 and 2. But I've heard rumours of a complete new edition being released with lots more commentaries etc, at an attractive (i.e. cheap :) price. > >Yes, good performance. But I still think The Vision can't be matched as > >the coolest crucifixion scene ever. If only because of the unexpectedly > >..cool... way it was photographed (no puns intended, btw). > > Sure, for plot, but I think "Fates" was a stronger visual and Lucy REALLY > sold it. Umm, yes, Lucy sold it. But maybe this is one of those cases where 'less is more'. The Vision was intriguingly different from the tone one might expect. > >>Fawcett should have caught that Claire couldn't make it ALTI when she was > >>yelling and >>rethought that shot. > > > >Which shot was that? > > After Xena saves Gab from the cross and Gab runs off. Alti goes after her. > Xena rescues Gab and then Ceasar shows up and captures Xena. Alti is > zipping around like the roadrunner (what the heck? - another stupid thing - > her powers never did that - SPIRITUAL powers). Then she's far away and > yells, "Couldn't help her FALLEN ANGEL" or something. The 'fallen angel' > line was just horriblely delivered. I don't blame Claire for that - you > can't yell doing that scratchy voice - she shouldn't have been directed in > a shot to do so. Ruins the creepy Alti. OK, I agree there. > >>But then it was funny as hell - ALL the fish jokes. ;) Hey, I was only > >> 17! Give me a break. So my >>mind wasn't warped yet. LOL! > > > >I think I've just got it.... 8-) > > Bwhahahahahahahaha! ... and it's only taken me eight years to work it out. I may be slow but I get there in the end. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:33:35 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] academy award spider-man 2 Honestly, no. I stopped watching award shows LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago, because, DAMNIT, the people who SHOULD win NEVER win. Frankly, the emmys have just pissed me off more times than I can count. For snubbing "Xena" for six years, for snubbing sci-fi/fantasy shows for major awards when REALITY TV has been given its own catagory - and my latest grrrr, GIVE LAUREN GRAHAM AN EMMY! For crying out loud, "Gilmore Girls" is NOT a comedy and will NEVER win in the comedy section. Funny, yes, comedy NO! It's a DRAMA. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: Lilli Sprintz >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: [chakram-refugees] academy award spider-man 2 >Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:42:47 -0800 > >anybody catch the awards tonight? spiderman-2 won for special effects. >recipients mentioned sam raimi. > >L >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:59:14 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Um...stuff (was: Defining "the Xenaverse") Didn't know what to call this thread, but we certainly aren't defining the Xenaverse anymore. ;) >>Ack, ack! I thought you said you didn't watch "Alias." Sorry, sorry. I >>thought season two was safe. I would NEVER post spoilers about season 4. >Actually, I've got the DVD's as far as Season 3. I'm making them last.... I could NEVER do that. ;) Gimmie, gimmie! >>VARIA >>Xena, its said that you have the power to kill gods. >OK, I admit it! I'd forgotten that. LOL! "I win! Wah ha ha ha." (struts around like Xena in "The Furies") Doubt not the maker of the transcripts! Even on eps I don't care for! ;) tee hee hee >I liked Brunnhilde, for no very good reason - maybe I just liked Brittney >Powell. Errrrrrmmm...she's OKAY. I had a feeling she was capable of more, honestly. I just didn't care for the character or the performance. It was a little flat. >And I liked Beowulf, too. Dull as bricks. >Odin, no... the Odin in Herc had far more Norse-godliness about him, I >thought. VERY MUCH AGREED! >But in any case, I don't like mush either. LOL! I can like it in limited portions. Enjoyed better among massive action show like "Xena." Keeps it from being over the top cheesy I think. ;) >The writing? - didn't notice it GACK! I just loved so much of the dialogue between Xena and Gab. The other characters, no, but Xena and Gab, oh yes! >Honestly, I can't see where the directing, the cinematography, or the >acting was particularly >exceptional, Or even the fight scene. *eyes bulge out of XT's head* I thought Lucy and Renee were both stunning in that ep. I must agree, the directing I am crediting for the fight. I love the OAAA fight scene. Can't believe you don't like that either. wow. >compared with, say, moments in The Debt or Sin Trades or Friend in Need. Well, gosh darnit, it's hard to compare ANYTHING to "The Debt." If I had to pick the BEST ALL AROUND episode in EVERY regard, I think it would be "The Debt"s which, though ranked in my top ten, is not my top three. (I count two parters as ONE ep). "The Debt"s would be number four on my list. I say best for all around, because you had flawless performances from EVERY cast members, amazing lighting, effects, makeup, costumes (they REALLY outdid themselves), directing, writing, plot, just EVERYTHING. Even in a favourite episode it is hard to point to EVERYTHING and say it was PERFECT. "The Debt" to me, is PERFECT. >Actually, I'm not a fan for most fight scenes... now I think of it, many >of the fight scenes I really >remember are Xena vs one opponent - like the >fight in Between The Lines, the flying fight in Sin >Trade, the fight of >Xena (as Callisto) vs Callisto (as Xena) in Intimate Strangers ... and so >on. >Maybe there's more personal intensity in it that way. Oh I agree. Though the director's cut of the opening fight with Xena and Yodoshi's arm and the final fight of OAAA rank up there among my favs. For one on ones, ANY fight between Xena and Callisto is a for sure. Xena and Ares make for great fights. I LOVED the Xena and Eve sword/chakram fight in "Eve" and consider it THE BEST sword fight in the series (Adrienne, Lucy, Zoe and Adrienne's double have the best sword work in this fight - I am STRICTLY referring to the sword work). And though I don't see Najara winning, I did enjoy the first fight between them (when Najara won) in "Crusader" and, silly though it was, the vine fight in "The Convert." Must add M'Lila fighting Xena's pirates for group fight. "The Price" ranks up there too - in particular - Xena vs. Horde master. The Xena and Alti battles in "Between the Lines" (Gab too) and of COURSE the skeleton battle in "Them Bones, Them Bones" (that was WICKED SWEET!) Uh....okay, that's it off the top of my head. ;) >>I didn't REALLY care for "Clones" except I had to enjoy the making fun of >>us. We can take it! >Some of ''us" apparently couldn't :( If you can't enjoy "Send in the Clones" you take yourself FAR TOO seriously! We ARE nutballs, and the ep was NOT supposed to be insulting, but a tribute to us. Simmer the heck down. ;) >Well, yes, I do rate 'Virginia' well above 'Joining Us'... and I agree with >your comment about Hudson. She was great as Liz Friedman in Virginia. >And of course her run-ins with 'Jerry Patrick Brown' were a neat reflection >of Callisto and Ares in Armageddon Now. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And Rob's assistant. All those little side bards as they attempted to off Rob! ROTFLMAO! PERFECT! >I've got the Region 1 ADV DVD's of Seasons 1 and 2. But I've heard >rumours of a complete new edition being released with lots more >commentaries >etc, at an attractive (i.e. cheap :) price. Son of a-- I JUST started buying the sets (at $180 CND - OUCH!) Damn releases. Piss me off. I REFUSE to rebuy. And I don't want to wait anymore. BAH! As a DVD-addict I am most often enraged by what I collect. Or even the fight scene. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #58 *************************************