From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #56 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, February 27 2005 Volume 05 : Number 056 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... [IfeRae] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season ... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) ["Xena Torres" I frankly don't understand the problem. LOTS of shows, and I mean a LOT of > shows use rape in them. Not to say that good, gods no, freaking far from it. > > But TV is a matter of art reflecting reality. Rape is a sad truth, as is > violence. Xena shows a heck of a lot of violence. Why isn't that 'bad'? The > point of showing such things usually is for story points. As a story point, > yeah, Hope and Eve were wicked plots! Gab's was a certainly a horrible > ordeal vs Xena's, and thus shows that there are consequences to this > violence against women. The show NEVER, EVER said rape was okay. The show > said it was BAD and it makes BAD things happen and that it HURTS, therefore, > > they did their job with it. >> Yes, my point was just that -- it's a theme in lots of shows, along with a lot of other themes that are painful and controversial. I also don't see the need to skirt around it (e.g., like calling dead bodies "collateral damage"). If I thought the show's use of violence, T&A, sexual innuendo, etc. were that offensive, I certainly wouldn't have watched or still proudly proclaim myself a huge, "till death do us part" fan. I think Xenastaff was exemplary in their treatement of women and did the best they could with the "baby by fire" scene. I simply refuse to pretend it wasn't what the circumstances suggest. > > Are there better shows that dealt with the issue - but of course - but Xena > didn't use it to tackle the issue. Xena used it as a plot point - just as > murder and violence are used as plot points. It's not fair nor right to > attack TPTB over the episode. >> Personally, "fairness" seems irrelevant in these cases. I certainly don't condone some of the vitriol or accusations. But when you produce (and reap the benefits of) a provocative show, it's only fair that you expect some repercussions. They added a mystical take to a very real > > issue, whether they meant to make that issue or not. Granted, they should > have put two and two together and figured that MANY people would see it as a > > rape, and thus, they shouldn't argue with those people and say, "No it > wasn't." I think that they should have acknowledged what people saw, but no > one should have flamed anyone over the 'issue'. If you did, you should be > attacking EVERY SINGLE show on TV. >> Yes, the former was my opinion as well -- that it's quite logical many might conclude what they saw represented rape, no matter how creatively it was shown. Frankly, I don't know many fans -- besides the flamers themselves -- who would argue that name calling is a great way to have a respectful conversation. > > I'm a woman, I am DAMNED sensitive to the issue. I've had two family members > > have to deal with this, but it doesn't mean I am offended by TV. Writing is > truth - it is a mirror. Don't get mad at people for speaking truths - they > are bolder then most to do so.>> Yes, that's also why I dislike being lumped in with "nutballs," when the majority of us rarely express outrage over the tons of varied objectionable things we see on TV. It tends to dismiss whole topics and "reasonable" people/opinions, not just the "fringe" folks. We're simply doing what the producers hope - -- being provoked into passionate interest in what they're showing us. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 02:33:21 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season ... In a message dated 2/25/2005 3:09:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > As I said, it's a matter of definition. If I was asked to define a > 'typical' rape it would certainly not include being attacked by tongues of > fire over an altar from a prehistoric god. > > As you pointed out, 'technically' it could be considered rape (still depends > > on the definition you use though), but in that case, yes, so should what > Callisto did for Xena in FA. Btw, I don't recall ever hearing TPTB saying > whether they thought that was 'okay' or not, actually. Don't fall into the > > trap of thinking 'because they showed it, they approved of it'. >> I appreciate your concern for my naivete, but you needn't worry about my falling into any "traps." I didn't comment on whether or what TPTB approved. I was mainly commenting on the fairly common theme of using women's bodies in nonconsensual ways involving powerlessness, violation and often to "produce" a baby. I'm not saying it's that different than showing death or torture, except there's less reluctance to call it death or torture, regardless of the means. (Well, except in certain political arenas.) > > For what it's worth, I saw The Deliverer for the first time with my wife > before I'd read any of the controversy on the Internet, and it never > occurred > to _either_ of us that it was anything other than a rather nasty bit of > demonic possession - until we saw the following episode. So please do not > assume that what was obvious to you in that scene, was obvious to everybody > - > because it wasn't. >. I don't believe I assumed anything of the sort. I said from the start that I had no problems with the scene itself. I didn't have a problem with the pregnancy (at least not on those grounds we're discussing). I personally saw something unpleasant happening to Gabs. I didn't focus on rape at all. My point was that, once I learned of the pregnancy, I couldn't ignore how it had occurred. I could perfectly well understand why others defined and reacted to it as they did. In fact, I would've preferred TPTB not dance around the issue, just like they were pretty straight forward about the violence and other sexual aspects of the show. > > >I'm not getting into the "morality" of that particular theme. I'm not > >getting into TPTB's use of it for their purposes. But the post-responses > >of Sears and other Xenastaff about the Gabs pregnancy were disengenous to > >me. Apparently they'd said there would never be "rape" on the show, which > >would suggest to me they knew exactly why it might not be such a good idea. > > I'd like to know just when 'they' said that, since that's the first I've > heard of such a blanket statement. >> That's why I said "apparently," as I don't recall how/where I first heard it. The only reason I gave it credence at all was because of some rather defensive responses from Xenastaff. Dahak "planted his seed" some kind of way, in a situation where I feel fairly confident in saying I don't think Gabs was willing. We certainly saw enough other weird goings-on in the show, where TPTB simply acknowledged it for what it was. Dahak violated Gabs. What's wrong with acknowledging the dramatic purpose of that? At least it would treat Gabs as a character, rather than simply a plot device for the Dahak arc. Of course those who pretty much see Gabs as a plot device anyway would say, "So what?" or "See, I told you so." Sears seemed to have particular appreciation for Gabs as more than that, so perhaps there was more expectation that he would understand why her fans would object to the concept of her as a magic baby-making machine. > >Yes, the show's "fantasy," but it produces strong emotions precisely by > >using enduring, real life "stuff." TPTB can't expect to heighten interest > >in Gabs and her child, yet ask everyone to ignore the implications of what > >produced the situation. They can't push a bunch of buttons and pick only > >the reactions they want. > > But they _weren't_ pushing buttons. Some moron leaked a spoiler. >> You're simply focusing on the "nut" forum. I'm speaking of people like myself who don't need somebody else to define for us what we saw. The show pushed buttons (was "provocative") all the time. That's why many of us love it and have heated debates. > > >Sears could say, "I didn't see it as rape" or "We > >didn't intend to depict rape." Fine. I don't dispute that it's not rape > >as *he* "knows it." But he could at least have had the courtesy to accept > >that it was rape to many of those most likely to know it when they see it, > > I don't think Steve ever argued that point. What he said was that in *his* > > opinion it wasn't 'rape'. >> That's fine. I don't claim to know what he said or whether he understood why others didn't agree. As I said above, it suggests to me that, in this instance, he did indeed view Gabs as a plot device. Dahak's baby was the important thing, not what happened to Gabs to produce the little devil. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand the reluctance to acknowledge that it necessitated a method to impregnate prone, helpless, unwilling, seemingly uncomfortable Gabs without it looking like rape. Admittedly, a "toughie," but apparently successfully executed for you, Sears and many others. > > > >who had good reason to believe > > _What_ 'good reason'? What some unidentified person 'apparently' said? > Sources please. >> Tappert & Co. frequently spoke of how good they felt about the "empowered woman" aspect of Xena, even though they initially saw the hero as a man in a female body. I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that we didn't have to worry about seeing Xena (and possibly Gabs) raped. I know women initially expressed that as a concern. It's the last thing many women want to see. The show's track record and TPTB's respectful comments gave many fans good reason to believe they wouldn't see it on a show like XWP. > > >they would never have to see any semblance of it on XWP. > > Ah, crucifixions are OK but rape isn't? I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit > like the attitude of some fans who want to dictate what TPTB can and can't > show. >> Again, you keep putting words in my mouth. I have always defended TPTB right to put on the show whatever they wanted. Even if they put a promise in writing about something, I believe they have the right to change their minds. I never said they shouldn't show rape or crucifixions or death or any of those things. I just never heard them say, "Well, it wasn't really a crucifixion, because with a 'true' crucifixion ...." or "Well, Xena didn't really kill all those soldiers in BACK IN THE BOTTLE because ...." We're only have this discussion (from my perspective anyway) because I questioned the hair-splitting about how Gabs not so delicately got in her "delicate condition." > And how remote a semblance of 'rape' are we talking about anyway? What > about the suggestion in The Furies that Ares was impersonating Xena's father > > with Cyrene? That was, technically, rape. (And so was Zeus when he > fathered Herc, btw. Don't blame RenPics, blame the Greeks for that one > :). > Oh yeah, and Callisto (in Xena's body) making it with Ares in Intimate > Strangers - I don't recall Xena giving consent. Oops, another technical > and > impossible-in-the-real-world rape. > What about Gurkhan, when Xena was in the dungeon being beaten up and saying > how she wanted to be 'number-one wife' - that surely counts as > prospective rape by your definition. (I found that scene squicky, but for > other reasons). Gosh, it really seems that if one wants to see 'rape' (or > > 'domestic violence' or any other contemporary ill) one can see it anywhere, > > one only has to make the definition loose enough and look hard enough. > Bah, humbug! >> You're right -- if someone wants to see forms or threats of rape, they're plentiful. I remember someone pointing out that Ares basically told Xena, "Have my child or I'll kill yours." As I said, it's an old, staple theme with many variations. A lot of people don't like it. That said, I don't recall it being a huge issue in the Xenaverse -- until the Gabs thing. The other situations were implied and often "softened" with humor. About the only ingredient missing from the Gabs situation was some body-shaped assaulter. Big difference. You keep talking about the scene in isolation, as you would rarely do about circumstances that led up to key events in other eps. Yes, by itself, it could've been an overly enthusiastic body massage, had not we learned of the pregnancy in the next ep. But it's completely illogical to me that I would not recall the "mystery" scene, put two and two together, and conclude that this must've been when Dakak planted his seed. It's also illogical to me that I might not see that scene differently in hindsight, just as reinterpreted Xena's early behavior in LOOKING DEATH, once we learned of her true plan. Please, don't drag in all the other examples and make it sound like this is some crusade of lunatics, when almost all the criticism I've heard on this topic has to do with one specific, unique situation. The only reason I commented on the issue is because you said you and Sears viewed it as a non-issue -- something that didn't happen and presumably doesn't deserve the attention given to modifications in Xena's S5 battledress. > > I'm not the biggest Steve Sears fan (he's too much of a subtexter/Gabfan for > > my liking) but he was ambushed over that Deliverer incident. >> Once again, I see we're on two wave lengths. Disregard all I said above. Yes, I agree, it's too bad poor, helpless Steve was laid out and attacked like that against his wishes. I hope his resulting delicate condition wasn't permanent. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:27:43 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:54, Xena Torres wrote: > ROTFLMAO! No ever leaks a spoiler on purpose. Geez. It ruins ALL your work > as a writer to have a shock when people know! Although, correct me if I am > wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Callisto's death in "Sacrifice" WAS leaked > in hopes it would hide the REAL spoiler of Gabby biting it - cause I > remember knowing about Callisto, but when Gab went into the pit I was > instantly on my feet and just HOWLING at the screen - to the amusement of > my brother who taunted me like Callisto taunted Xena. He particually liked > when Callisto started laughing. ;) Of course, the 'Callisto dying' could have been a genuine leak, and not a 'plant' by TPTB. I agree, it's possible TPTB might have leaked it to distract attention from the Gabdive - but very unusual. I don't think I'd accept that any particular leak was a 'plant' by TPTB unless there was some hard evidence to that effect. Anyway, either way, the writers 'got' you - wasn't that cool? I loved how (since I wasn't on the Internet so didn't know spoilers) they 'got' me in Deliverer, when Gabs' soppy little idyllic side-plot with Khrafstar and the flower children turned into a devil-worshipping horror story. And I can't say they didn't give us warning, all that 'love' stuff was just a little too good to be true. (Favourite quote: XENA This is not the one god of the Israelites. KHRAFSTAR No. That one will be taken care of in due time. ROTFL! ) (snip) > >I didn't want TPTB *ever* to pull their punches 'in case they offended > >somebody', and thank the >gods they didn't. (Or, only rarely). > > Well, yes they did. They REFUSED to name Eli...uh...crap, what was the name > Rob said? Another name for Jesus or something - I don't remember. They > feared an issue. For that to qualify as 'pulling their punches', they would have had to really want Eli to be a Jesus clone. My impression is, they didn't in any case want the resemblance to be too close. What would it have gained them? > They DID allow "The Way" to be pulled and then CUT. I could forgive this > cause it was really more the networks that did this - BUT "The Way" > REMAINDED CUT on the DVD! That is 'pulling the punch' and pisses me off to > no end! How DARE they censor the DVD! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. A very small cut, to be sure. And, of course, they did - all the time - have in mind that the show was going out on TV. So they couldn't show too much graphic violence or nudity (or strong language). BUT - would more violence or nudity have helped the storyline? I don't think so. In respect of storylines, they were quite bold. I think they probably went on what they thought the general viewing public would accept, rather than the approach of "is some pressure group going to be offended by this?" (Or, "is some group of fans going to be uspet by this" :) > >Don't blame RenPics, blame the Greeks for that one :). > > ROTFLMAO! At least Zeus didn't turn into cows to make it with women on the > shows! He did that in myth too! YUCK! Cows or bulls? There is a small but rather significant difference > >Gosh, it really seems that if one wants to see 'rape' (or 'domestic > >violence' or any other >contemporary ill) one can see it anywhere, > > Of course you can. It's a running theme with Xena/Gab/Joxer for domestic > violence. We actually had an entire discussion panel about the matter at > the 3rd Fest. It was interesting, but the point still comes down to the > fact that that was never the story TPTB were telling on "Xena." "Xena" was > about friendship (or love - however you may see it), redemption, and > equality (all races, all genders, all sexualities - all shown). I agree there. But I'd go further and say that I do _not_ believe that TPTB were trying to write a moral into everything they wrote. Therefore it is not only futile, it is positively mischievous, to try and take some mythical situation in the show and plaster some modern-day label on it. Because Gabby's pacifism in season 4 was futile, does not mean that all pacifism today is pointless, for example. Xena getting beaten up does _not_ mean that the show promotes violence against women. And so on.... (snip) > Oh my gods, you're SO right! Ever notice that Gabby fans FREAK when > anything happens to Gab, I think they're the ones KT calls 'Gabfundies' > but Xena fans love stuff happening to Xena? I > mean, I LOVE The Gauntlet: hate it but love it. Sure, I don't like seeing > Xena get beaten, but the story is SO rich for it. "Stuff" makes the > characters have something to face and overcome. I welcomed whatever stuff > they wanted to throw at either character. Oh, me too, that's what adventure series are for. So the heroes can put up with all the exciting stuff we devoutly hope never happens to us > I complained only when I thought > something was out of character or illogical. Like, I NEVER agreed with > Gabby stabbing that guy in "Legacy." Oye that was a cheap and stupid plot > device that made NO sense. :P Personally, I thought it worked... Gabby had been getting really quick on the trigger since the start of Season 5. Sooner or later she was going to cause some collateral damage. But it's quite legitimate to see it otherwise. I have far more sympathy with a view that says 'Xena (or Gabby) just wouldn't do that!' rather than one that says 'TPTB are sending this message which all right-thinking people find offensive' (when usually TPTB aren't sending anything like that 'message' anyway). > That sort of thing I will contest. But I LOVE > the Gab drag, the Gab Chak, the Gabinator, Xena getting her spine broken by > the chakram, the Gauntlet - all AMAZING things that led to amazing stories > or growth of characters. That's the point, isn't it? > BATTLE ON XENA! Entirely. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:02:52 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Woodhill - the saga continues Continuing the story of my investigations at Woodhill Forest.... Last weekend I took some photos of Toroanui Falls (from a mile away with a 2x200 lens on my old Konica film camera, since my little Fuji digital doesn't go beyond 100mm) and, amazingly, they came out. Now I just have to scan them and blow the waterfall up a bit, and see if it looks like any in XWP. I thought maybe Many Happy Returns, but now I'm not so sure. Must get on to it. I also confirmed for sure, the 'ambush' site of Pompey's troops and their Amazon captives in Endgame - in 'Cable Road' (a forest track) just below the Okiritoto stream bridge. And, when the one Roman escapes on horseback, there is a curious scrubby tree just ahead of him. In my photos, that's a tall cable-marking pole. However, on closer examination, it turns out to have the withered remains of some branches taped to it - as Brutus said, "I have conclusive proof". Well, who else would climb twelve feet up a pole to disguise it? ;) What else? Oh yeah, the 'fishing' scene in Endgame, that I always thought should be the Waiti Stream at Bethells but it would never 'fit'. The Okiritoto Stream looked even better but I couldn't make that fit either, till (eliminating all possibilities) I went right downstream past the forest entrance to where it hits the back of the beach dunes - and there it is. And, Cable Road is, I'm pretty sure, the location of the runaway chariot in Key to the Kingdom, if anybody cares That was last weekend. Now, this weekend, armed with more scans of episodes.... I went right up and down Okiritoto Stream looking for the 'dreamscape' from Them Bones where Gabs met Alti, and eventually after walking several miles found the most likely location is the one I first looked at and discarded, 50 yards from where I parked my car at the forest entrance. :) I can't match the trees precisely, I think because the forest on the south side of the stream has been logged, and with it (probably) some damage to the scrubby ti-tree in some of the shots. Also, rather than Gabs and Alti facing each other as in the episode, the shots were taken in non-related directions and cut together. I found the location, 30 yards off Cable Road, where the very first 'moonlight' scene in Endgame (just before the death of Ephiny) was shot. (Why did they do 'moonlight', btw? - it was full day later). I've found a tree that exactly matches the one in the shot. (Yeah, I know, one tree in a forest full of several million. But - in that scene, there's a skyline ridge, seen through the trees, with a couple of low hillocks on it - walking down Cable Road I had a hunch the area looked about 'right', so it was just a matter of getting the hillocks on the skyline in the right relation to each other, and carefully checking trees to find one that matched. Am I sane? ('Depends who you ask' - Xena, Fallen Angel). I think maybe Gabs' deer-hunt in Them Bones is in the same general area. Couldn't 'fix' that one, though. Put a black border round this paragraph: And, very sadly, the Amazon camp from Sin Trade / Them Bones is no more, it's been logged. It's just to the north of Cable Road. Actually, the Sin Trade camp location was maybe 50 yards down-valley from the Them Bones one; both locations were also used liberally in fights in 'Be Deviled' which offers the best overall views of the valley. (I call it a valley - actually, it's more like half a valley - a long flat floor with a steep ridge on one side only; on the other side is the mostly flat area along Cable Road). It was 'Be Deviled' that gave me the final clue, actually - in the last scene, Herc and Iolaus walk away up Cable Road, so it was a natural to investigate the recently logged area alongside the road. Of course it all looks very different with the trees gone, but the contours of the valley bottom and the edge of the ridge are fairly distinctive. That's one battle the trees lost. But maybe they'll win the war :) The site of Xena's ambush of Brutus in Endgame (that led to the Brutus-drag) was also at the Them Bones campsite, btw. Of course this fits with Coming Home, where Ares destroyed the Amazon forest. I wondered if the routine forest logging had given the XWP writers ideas. Well, I've just had a quick look at Coming Home and - so help me! - that's exactly the shot of the destroyed valley in the episode!! How's that for continuity?? (And, in CH, there's a plume of smoke coming from the valley.... believe it or not but in my wanderings today I noticed a charred tree stump in what looks to be the 'right' place! Anyway, walking over the devastated area, a sudden horrific thought occurred to me - suppose TPTB didn't _get_ the idea from the logging. Suppose they had the idea first and, in the interests of continuity, they suggested to Carter Holt Forests that that would be a suitable area to include in their logging programme. Surely they wouldn't. Would they? Okay, I guess they wouldn't really. Still, it's a nicely horrific thought to tantalise myself with I'm working on a page for the NewXenaland Locations site about all this. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:19:28 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) >Yes, but you don't (I hope) go issuing threats or slandering those who >don't >share your enthusiasm? Well, I might smack them in the head...lol! No, to each his own. I don't care if you HATE the eps I love. We all like different things. The important thing is, if you must, attack the ep, not the fans of the ep or the people involved with the ep. Just because an ep sucks, doesn't mean you should slander TPTB. They will make mistakes too. You can say, "That ep sucked SO BAD!" but you should never say, "Thw writer is an IDIOT who should be gab dragged!" That is BAD. :P >Oh, there was a firestorm over that (no pun intended). Part of it was >that some moron leaked a spoiler that Gabs was going to be raped, Okay, yes. I remember all that. I thought you were talking about the script so I was confused. ;) >then whenthe ep aired there was all sorts of accusations including that >TPTB 'lied to >the fans' (sound familiar?) Now, why on earth TPTB should be obligated >to >confirm spoilers I cannot imagine. What did they *expect* Steve to say? LOL! Rob too! He said Xena would NOT die! Actually, he said Xena AND Gabrielle would not die, so maybe it WASN'T really a lie. ;) >Besides which, in Steve's view (and mine!), what happened in Deliverer was >not 'rape as we know >it'. So then he was accused, utterly illogically, >of condoning rape. See, now that made NO sense to me. Whether you see it as such or not...um, LOTS of shows have rape in them. Watch like ANY copy show for crying out loud. >Ack! Spoilers!!! I'm only half way through S2 so far. I'll do my best >to forget you said that. Ack, ack! I thought you said you didn't watch "Alias." Sorry, sorry. I thought season two was safe. I would NEVER post spoilers about season 4. >I don't think there's anything wrong with attempting to reprise a >successful >ep - other than the possibility that, if the original ep was a classic (as >The Debt and Sin Trade were), it's going to be that much harder to equal >it. True, true. >Who's going to tell them? I don't recall any of the Amazons for example >commenting on the fact that Xena had just offed most of the Olympians. *tsk* Check the teaser again, cr. Varia DID know. VARIA Xena, its said that you have the power to kill gods. MARGA I hope that its true. We have one more for you. XENA Who? MARGA Ares. The God of War. Last moment of the teaser. I thought you thought this episode was great? You need to watch it again. ;) Hee hee. Also, Adrienne told me that Lucy, Renee and her played the ep as though a YEAR had passed - I think word would have gotten out about the gods getting slaughtered pretty darn quickly. ;) >I thought there were some excellent scenes with Xena and Ares, and the >Furies. Not the writing though. Lucy and Kevin were great, but I wasn't impressed with the writing. >Well, I think in that respect you'd be in a minority, because my impression >is that the Ring trilogy are some of the best-liked eps of S6. Yeah, I know. I should correct myself - I DID like "The Ring." I was bored by "The Rheingold' and "Return of the Valkyrie." Beowulf and Odin and the Valkyries all sucked and could have been so much cooler! And Brunhilda for the matter. Whinny little brat. ;) >Agreed. Best comedy of the entire series IMO. You know...yes. I COMPLETELY agree. "File photo" and all that - yee gods. But, NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING kills me as much as Eve suddenly cussing her head off at Nigel. That just SLAYS me EVERY time and I have to watch it like, seven times every time. LOVE that scene! Go Adrienne! >Hah! Talking about bad plots.... have you heard KT and I going on about >'Helicon'? Hee hee. Like I said, it COULD have been really cool. I do have all the respect in the world for Liz, but "Helicon" was a let down. :( >Oh, I wasn't really interested in the romance with Anthony.... but the >sets >were great, the story was good (with doublecrosses all round) Oh yeah, all that ROCKED, but was greatly overshadowed by the stupid love interest crap. Bah! >I was going to add to my previous post - I think I did, in fact - that I >was >omitting to mention a lot of eps I enjoyed but didn't quite rate in the >'great' category. "Callisto" is great. Best Callisto ep, no, but still damned great! ;) >Not just that - but it's nothing but subtext. Great if yer a subtexter, >but absolutely nothing in it >for me *waves hand* I'm not a subtexter. BUT I am a big fan of the Xena/Gab relationship. You hate Gab, so that's understandable that you don't like eps where Xena's all mushy with Gab. Tee hee. But, even if you hate the relationship, come on, that fight scene! ;) And you must admit the writing was great, the directing was great, the acting was great - thus - great episode. ;) >Yes, certainly so, but IMO clip shows are best saved for comedy eps (it's >hard to advance the series plot much or have high drama when it's >constantly >being interrupted by clips). So as clip shows go, Clones was way the best, >then Xena Scrolls, Deja Vu, Punch Lines, then Forget Me Not, and Athens >Acdemy of Boring Bards way last. Hmmmmm. I'd have to say "The Xena Scrolls," "Forget Me Not," "Send in the Clones," "Punchlines," "Deja Vu" then "Bards." I'm big on drama - they tend to always beat out comedy - though "The Xena Scrolls" was the best mix of both. I didn't REALLY care for "Clones" except I had to enjoy the making fun of us. We can take it! And I'm sure we all saw ourselves. Plus, you know, ALTI! ;) >But then, I'd rate the Herc clip shows Yes Virginia and For Those of You >Just >Joining Us right up there with Clones. No way! "Yes Virgina" beats ALL! "Just Joining Us" sucked. :P TOTALLY DIDN'T use Hudson and she was the best in the first one. ;) I LOVE Virgina. Oh gods, THAT'S a clip show!!!!!!!!!! YEAH! "Hello! Am I the only one in this room getting oxygen? You still need Kevin's voice. No Kevin, no cartoon." "Aftershock. You slipped and fell on my fist." "You IDIOT. Kevin Sorbo PLAYEd the Soverign." ROTFLMAO! Ah...Hudson. >The Deliverer and Gabs' Hope are, like The Furies, in my 'very good' >category >and on a good day they might make my 'greatest' category. Okay, yes. Very true. I was thinking good, not GREAT. ;) Although, all Xena is great. Tee hee. But you know what I mean. The 5 star eps. Gottcha. >The Reckoning is fairly good (and it has Ares of course); Ties That Bind I >find to be very similar. Dreamworker is quite good too (and I have a >sneaking liking for Cradle of Hope, for no good reason I rather like Mary >Elizabeth McGlynn) Warrior..Princess is good, Mortal Beloved is okay - but >none of these eps >come near my 'great eps' category. >And ITADITH I rate with OAAA - great if you like subtext. I'd have to rate "Dreamworker," "The Reckoning" and "ITADITH?" as 4 and half stars, so as damned near to great as you could get. They were all very stong and wonderful eps. >Yes, exactly the feeling I had with 'Full Circle'. IMO, God Fearing Child >was a far more dramatic finale for the Herc story. Yes. Very. That was the "Hercules" finale. ;) But again, still not, you know, FINISHED. :) >If you mean 'Farscape - PK Wars', I've been keeping spoiler-free - do NOT >spoil me! I do mean the Peace Wars. I would NEVER give that away. That hasn't even aired in Canada yet (airs at end of March). I got it from a US friend of mine, and then bought the DVD of course. ;) BTW cr - Farscape DVDs - pricy, but UNCUT! Sweeeeeet. Added footage RULES! >Yes, good performance. But I still think The Vision can't be matched as >the coolest crucifixion scene ever. If only because of the unexpectedly >..cool... way it was photographed (no puns intended, btw). Sure, for plot, but I think "Fates" was a stronger visual and Lucy REALLY sold it. >OK, rephrase that - my impression is, Barnabas was the alt-Joxer - the >capable one, the better side of his character. LOL. >>Fawcett should have caught that Claire couldn't make it ALTI when she was >>yelling and >>rethought that shot. >Which shot was that? After Xena saves Gab from the cross and Gab runs off. Alti goes after her. Xena rescues Gab and then Ceasar shows up and captures Xena. Alti is zipping around like the roadrunner (what the heck? - another stupid thing - her powers never did that - SPIRITUAL powers). Then she's far away and yells, "Couldn't help her FALLEN ANGEL" or something. The 'fallen angel' line was just horriblely delivered. I don't blame Claire for that - you can't yell doing that scratchy voice - she shouldn't have been directed in a shot to do so. Ruins the creepy Alti. >>But then it was funny as hell - ALL the fish jokes. ;) Hey, I was only 17! >>Give me a break. So my >>mind wasn't warped yet. LOL! >I think I've just got it.... 8-) Bwhahahahahahahaha! >Don't you mean Nigel? Oh, _Michael_ Hurst! Of course. Yes. (I was >thinking of Michael the >_Archangel!!_ :) Well, actually, he was >hilarious too. ROTFLMAO! Yes, the actor, but I agree, Charles was great too. ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:56:58 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Woodhill - the saga continues In a message dated 2/26/2005 3:45:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Anyway, walking over the devastated area, a sudden horrific thought > occurred > to me - suppose TPTB didn't _get_ the idea from the logging. Suppose they > had the idea first and, in the interests of continuity, they suggested to > Carter Holt Forests that that would be a suitable area to include in their > logging programme. Surely they wouldn't. Would they? > > Okay, I guess they wouldn't really. Still, it's a nicely horrific thought > to tantalise myself with > You know, I was thinking these treks must be relaxing for you -- nice strolls down XWP memory lane. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps you might consider taking a break? Like maybe three or more months? Go with the wife to a shopping mall filled with mundane consumer items? Nothing with trees or waterfalls. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #56 *************************************