From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #55 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, February 26 2005 Volume 05 : Number 055 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... ["Xena Torres" Besides which, in Steve's view (and mine!), what happened in Deliverer was > not 'rape as we know it'. So then he was accused, utterly illogically, of > condoning rape. As a result of which, Steve stopped chatting on the > Nutforum. Thanks morons! > > (Whether it was 'rape' or not is not a matter of morals, just of > definitions, > IMO. Depends on whether you want to force totally mythical and impossible > events into arbitrary modern-day categories - I don't.) > > I'm speaking as a woman who didn't have a problem with the scene. However, it does depict the violation of a woman's body in some manner which impregnated her, which could well be considered rape (certainly by the woman) regardless of time period and under any circumstances. Xena also gets impregnated without her permission, though I suppose it was considered "okay" by TPTB because the source was "good." It's been a staple of many sci-fi stories -- woman impregnated by extraterrestrials, mind-melds, secret potions, dieties, etc. without her consent, utterly helpless to stop it. It often happens to strong or warrior-type women shown as able to defend themselves in every way but that. Regardless of the method, the results are the same -- a violation of the most intimate (to the woman) kind, usually designed to produce a being for the violator's purposes and playing on the complex emotions of a mother for her child. I'm not getting into the "morality" of that particular theme. I'm not getting into TPTB's use of it for their purposes. But the post-responses of Sears and other Xenastaff about the Gabs pregnancy were disengenous to me. Apparently they'd said there would never be "rape" on the show, which would suggest to me they knew exactly why it might not be such a good idea. They took the usual round about way of presenting the cake anyway, by pretending it wasn't a cake because the ingredients were different. Defending their choice was one thing. Trivializing the negative impact with their hair-splitting is what I personally objected to. So Sears got flamed. Poor baby. Play with fire, you sometimes get burned. Yes, the show's "fantasy," but it produces strong emotions precisely by using enduring, real life "stuff." TPTB can't expect to heighten interest in Gabs and her child, yet ask everyone to ignore the implications of what produced the situation. They can't push a bunch of buttons and pick only the reactions they want. Sears could say, "I didn't see it as rape" or "We didn't intend to depict rape." Fine. I don't dispute that it's not rape as *he* "knows it." But he could at least have had the courtesy to accept that it was rape to many of those most likely to know it when they see it, who had good reason to believe they would never have to see any semblance of it on XWP. To be clear, this isn't intended to encourage a "is it or isn't it rape" thread. That's not a topic I'm eager to see. As you probably know by now, there are just some things I can't let pass unchallenged. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:20:05 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... >To be clear, this isn't intended to encourage a "is it or isn't it rape" >thread. That's not a topic I'm >eager to see. As you probably know by >now, there are just some things I can't let pass >unchallenged. :-) You made a lot of good points. I must agree, that I don't want to start the was it/wasn't it argument again, but I will offer my thoughts on the situation regarding fans and TPTB. I frankly don't understand the problem. LOTS of shows, and I mean a LOT of shows use rape in them. Not to say that good, gods no, freaking far from it. But TV is a matter of art reflecting reality. Rape is a sad truth, as is violence. Xena shows a heck of a lot of violence. Why isn't that 'bad'? The point of showing such things usually is for story points. As a story point, yeah, Hope and Eve were wicked plots! Gab's was a certainly a horrible ordeal vs Xena's, and thus shows that there are consequences to this violence against women. The show NEVER, EVER said rape was okay. The show said it was BAD and it makes BAD things happen and that it HURTS, therefore, they did their job with it. Are there better shows that dealt with the issue - but of course - but Xena didn't use it to tackle the issue. Xena used it as a plot point - just as murder and violence are used as plot points. It's not fair nor right to attack TPTB over the episode. They added a mystical take to a very real issue, whether they meant to make that issue or not. Granted, they should have put two and two together and figured that MANY people would see it as a rape, and thus, they shouldn't argue with those people and say, "No it wasn't." I think that they should have acknowledged what people saw, but no one should have flamed anyone over the 'issue'. If you did, you should be attacking EVERY SINGLE show on TV. I'm a woman, I am DAMNED sensitive to the issue. I've had two family members have to deal with this, but it doesn't mean I am offended by TV. Writing is truth - it is a mirror. Don't get mad at people for speaking truths - they are bolder then most to do so. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" > >I'm speaking as a woman who didn't have a problem with the scene. However, >it does depict the violation of a woman's body in some manner which >impregnated >her, which could well be considered rape (certainly by the woman) >regardless >of time period and under any circumstances. Xena also gets impregnated >without her permission, though I suppose it was considered "okay" by TPTB >because >the source was "good." > >It's been a staple of many sci-fi stories -- woman impregnated by >extraterrestrials, mind-melds, secret potions, dieties, etc. without her >consent, utterly >helpless to stop it. It often happens to strong or warrior-type women >shown >as able to defend themselves in every way but that. Regardless of the >method, >the results are the same -- a violation of the most intimate (to the woman) >kind, usually designed to produce a being for the violator's purposes and >playing on the complex emotions of a mother for her child. > >I'm not getting into the "morality" of that particular theme. I'm not >getting into TPTB's use of it for their purposes. But the post-responses >of Sears >and other Xenastaff about the Gabs pregnancy were disengenous to me. >Apparently they'd said there would never be "rape" on the show, which would >suggest to >me they knew exactly why it might not be such a good idea. They took the >usual round about way of presenting the cake anyway, by pretending it >wasn't a >cake because the ingredients were different. Defending their choice was >one >thing. Trivializing the negative impact with their hair-splitting is what >I >personally objected to. So Sears got flamed. Poor baby. Play with fire, >you >sometimes get burned. > >Yes, the show's "fantasy," but it produces strong emotions precisely by >using >enduring, real life "stuff." TPTB can't expect to heighten interest in >Gabs >and her child, yet ask everyone to ignore the implications of what produced >the situation. They can't push a bunch of buttons and pick only the >reactions >they want. Sears could say, "I didn't see it as rape" or "We didn't intend >to >depict rape." Fine. I don't dispute that it's not rape as *he* "knows >it." >But he could at least have had the courtesy to accept that it was rape to >many >of those most likely to know it when they see it, who had good reason to >believe they would never have to see any semblance of it on XWP. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:08:05 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > IIRC Gabby was down a hole for all of Sin Trade and if she was barefoot > > her tootsies woulda been getting nicely toasted. :) > > LOL! Um, no, I was referring to her "barefoot and nonviolent" phase in S4. > > -- Ife Ah, OK. I think I'm fairly non-violent (translation: mostly harmless) but it being these days rather than those days, I haven't had occasion to find out cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:20:30 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] [almost OT] Pompeii: The Last Day On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:49, Cheryl LaScola wrote: > I just watched this and I agree, it was interesting and informative. > Despite seeing many shows / movies on volcanoes this was THE BEST. > > I have been to the Amalfi coast off Naples and it is one of the most > beautiful places I have been to. You would never think Vesuvius was a > threat... so many people and the volcano just appears to be another > mountain. After seeing this show it makes one wonder how millions can > live at the foot of it everyday without a care. > > CJ Because it hasn't had a Pompeii-type eruption in 2000 years? It's had smaller ones though. But then, on Hawaii, several small towns have been threatened by lava flows within the last century. Here in Auckland, we have 'mini-volcanoes' - little cones up to 600 feet high, spaced about every three or four miles. All extinct, except that the most recent eruption was about 800 years ago, which is as nothing in geological time, and another one could pop up at any time. Not big enough to be really major, but it would make a mess of a few square miles of city. But then in Wellington (and LA) they live on the fault line. I guess the answer's simple. An eruption (or an earthquake) that *might* happen any time, but probably won't in the next 50 years, is too remote to worry about. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:47:19 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:34, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/2005 11:35:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Besides which, in Steve's view (and mine!), what happened in Deliverer > > was not 'rape as we know it'. So then he was accused, utterly > > illogically, of condoning rape. As a result of which, Steve stopped > > chatting on the Nutforum. Thanks morons! > > > > (Whether it was 'rape' or not is not a matter of morals, just of > > definitions, > > IMO. Depends on whether you want to force totally mythical and > > impossible events into arbitrary modern-day categories - I don't.) > > I'm speaking as a woman who didn't have a problem with the scene. However, > it does depict the violation of a woman's body in some manner which > impregnated her, which could well be considered rape (certainly by the > woman) regardless of time period and under any circumstances. Xena also > gets impregnated without her permission, though I suppose it was considered > "okay" by TPTB because the source was "good." As I said, it's a matter of definition. If I was asked to define a 'typical' rape it would certainly not include being attacked by tongues of fire over an altar from a prehistoric god. As you pointed out, 'technically' it could be considered rape (still depends on the definition you use though), but in that case, yes, so should what Callisto did for Xena in FA. Btw, I don't recall ever hearing TPTB saying whether they thought that was 'okay' or not, actually. Don't fall into the trap of thinking 'because they showed it, they approved of it'. For what it's worth, I saw The Deliverer for the first time with my wife before I'd read any of the controversy on the Internet, and it never occurred to _either_ of us that it was anything other than a rather nasty bit of demonic possession - until we saw the following episode. So please do not assume that what was obvious to you in that scene, was obvious to everybody - because it wasn't. > I'm not getting into the "morality" of that particular theme. I'm not > getting into TPTB's use of it for their purposes. But the post-responses > of Sears and other Xenastaff about the Gabs pregnancy were disengenous to > me. Apparently they'd said there would never be "rape" on the show, which > would suggest to me they knew exactly why it might not be such a good idea. I'd like to know just when 'they' said that, since that's the first I've heard of such a blanket statement. > They took the usual round about way of presenting the cake anyway, by > pretending it wasn't a cake because the ingredients were different. > Defending their choice was one thing. Trivializing the negative impact > with their hair-splitting is what I personally objected to. So Sears got > flamed. Poor baby. Play with fire, you sometimes get burned. Well, in this case, he was mainly guilty of chatting with fans on the Nutforum, and trying _not_ to give away spoilers. Really incredibly evil behaviour, huh? But he learned, he stayed away from the Nutforum after that. And who did that benefit? > Yes, the show's "fantasy," but it produces strong emotions precisely by > using enduring, real life "stuff." TPTB can't expect to heighten interest > in Gabs and her child, yet ask everyone to ignore the implications of what > produced the situation. They can't push a bunch of buttons and pick only > the reactions they want. But they _weren't_ pushing buttons. Some moron leaked a spoiler. (And yes, there were always the paranoid conspiracy theorists who said 'oh yes, it must have been a deliberate leak by TPTB' - which is stupid. Why would TPTB give away a plotline? We know they did their best to avoid that.) > Sears could say, "I didn't see it as rape" or "We > didn't intend to depict rape." Fine. I don't dispute that it's not rape > as *he* "knows it." But he could at least have had the courtesy to accept > that it was rape to many of those most likely to know it when they see it, I don't think Steve ever argued that point. What he said was that in *his* opinion it wasn't 'rape'. > who had good reason to believe _What_ 'good reason'? What some unidentified person 'apparently' said? Sources please. > they would never have to see any semblance of it on XWP. Ah, crucifixions are OK but rape isn't? I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit like the attitude of some fans who want to dictate what TPTB can and can't show. I don't think it's possible to make a dramatic series like 'Xena' without offending the sensibilities of some part of the audience or another. I didn't want TPTB *ever* to pull their punches 'in case they offended somebody', and thank the gods they didn't. (Or, only rarely). Pull their punches I mean, of course, there were plenty of people queuing up to be offended. And how remote a semblance of 'rape' are we talking about anyway? What about the suggestion in The Furies that Ares was impersonating Xena's father with Cyrene? That was, technically, rape. (And so was Zeus when he fathered Herc, btw. Don't blame RenPics, blame the Greeks for that one :). Oh yeah, and Callisto (in Xena's body) making it with Ares in Intimate Strangers - I don't recall Xena giving consent. Oops, another technical and impossible-in-the-real-world rape. What about Gurkhan, when Xena was in the dungeon being beaten up and saying how she wanted to be 'number-one wife' - that surely counts as prospective rape by your definition. (I found that scene squicky, but for other reasons). Gosh, it really seems that if one wants to see 'rape' (or 'domestic violence' or any other contemporary ill) one can see it anywhere, one only has to make the definition loose enough and look hard enough. Bah, humbug! As I see it, Steve was put into an impossible position. Some moronic fan (who should have known better) asked him flat out 'does Gabby get raped?'. What the hell is he _supposed_ to say? 'Yes' and spoil the episode? And then after the episode aired, somebody (probably the same moron) started whining about 'You lied to us!'. Well, maybe he should just have said 'Well tough, then don't ask bloody stupid questions and put me in an impossible position'. But that's not Steve's style, instead he tried to defend his position with logic. Doubtless a mistake when some vengeful fan has already decided you're guilty - IIRC the atmosphere in some circles at the time was "How dare they do this to poor sweet Gabby!!" (Curiously enough nobody ever seemed to feel the same way about Bad Things happening to Xena. Not, for example, about that technical 'rape' in Intimate Strangers - of which Xena, when Ares told her about it, just remarked "When I get my body back, I gotta remember to take a long bath"). I'm not the biggest Steve Sears fan (he's too much of a subtexter/Gabfan for my liking) but he was ambushed over that Deliverer incident. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:52:18 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:20, Xena Torres wrote: > Are there better shows that dealt with the issue - but of course - but Xena > didn't use it to tackle the issue. Xena used it as a plot point - just as > murder and violence are used as plot points. It's not fair nor right to > attack TPTB over the episode. They added a mystical take to a very real > issue, whether they meant to make that issue or not. Granted, they should > have put two and two together and figured that MANY people would see it as > a rape, and thus, they shouldn't argue with those people and say, "No it > wasn't." I think that they should have acknowledged what people saw, but no > one should have flamed anyone over the 'issue'. If you did, you should be > attacking EVERY SINGLE show on TV. The real problem was, I think, that somebody leaked that "Gabs was going to be raped" and Steve Sears was pushed into a corner on the Nutforum where he had to deny it or give away a massive spoiler. Which I think put him in a false position from then on. If Steve had been asked 'was it rape' *after* the show aired, he might have been able to give a very different answer. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:54:14 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... >nd it never occurred to _either_ of us that it was anything other than a >rather nasty bit of >demonic possession - until we saw the following episode. You know, you're right. I COMPLETELY agree with you there. I didn't see it as such until Hope arrived. Very good point. The scene itself sure has heck did NOT imply that. ;) But combined with "Gabrielle's Hope" and then you get the argument. (again, NOT making it). ;) >>Apparently they'd said there would never be "rape" on the show >I'd like to know just when 'they' said that, since that's the first I've >heard of such a blanket >statement. Yeah, I never heard that either. >there were always the paranoid conspiracy theorists who said 'oh yes, it >must have been a >deliberate leak by TPTB' - which is stupid. Why would >TPTB give away a plotline? ROTFLMAO! No ever leaks a spoiler on purpose. Geez. It ruins ALL your work as a writer to have a shock when people know! Although, correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Callisto's death in "Sacrifice" WAS leaked in hopes it would hide the REAL spoiler of Gabby biting it - cause I remember knowing about Callisto, but when Gab went into the pit I was instantly on my feet and just HOWLING at the screen - to the amusement of my brother who taunted me like Callisto taunted Xena. He particually liked when Callisto started laughing. ;) >Ah, crucifixions are OK but rape isn't? I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit >like the attitude of some >fans who want to dictate what TPTB can and can't >show. I don't think it's possible to make a >dramatic series like 'Xena' >without offending the sensibilities of some part of the audience or > >another. Exactly. >I didn't want TPTB *ever* to pull their punches 'in case they offended >somebody', and thank the >gods they didn't. (Or, only rarely). Well, yes they did. They REFUSED to name Eli...uh...crap, what was the name Rob said? Another name for Jesus or something - I don't remember. They feared an issue. They DID allow "The Way" to be pulled and then CUT. I could forgive this cause it was really more the networks that did this - BUT "The Way" REMAINDED CUT on the DVD! That is 'pulling the punch' and pisses me off to no end! How DARE they censor the DVD! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. >Pull their punches I mean, of course, there were plenty of people queuing >up to be offended. Oh always. :P >Don't blame RenPics, blame the Greeks for that one :). ROTFLMAO! At least Zeus didn't turn into cows to make it with women on the shows! He did that in myth too! YUCK! >Oh yeah, and Callisto (in Xena's body) making it with Ares in Intimate >Strangers - I don't recall >Xena giving consent. Oops, another technical >and impossible-in-the-real-world rape. True, true. I recall thinking that myself when I first saw it. >Gosh, it really seems that if one wants to see 'rape' (or 'domestic >violence' or any other >contemporary ill) one can see it anywhere, Of course you can. It's a running theme with Xena/Gab/Joxer for domestic violence. We actually had an entire discussion panel about the matter at the 3rd Fest. It was interesting, but the point still comes down to the fact that that was never the story TPTB were telling on "Xena." "Xena" was about friendship (or love - however you may see it), redemption, and equality (all races, all genders, all sexualities - all shown). >As I see it, Steve was put into an impossible position. Some moronic fan >(who should have >known better) asked him flat out 'does Gabby get raped?'. >What the hell is he _supposed_ to >say? 'Yes' and spoil the episode? Yep. True. I agree completely. Never should have asked him BEFORE the ep, cause he WON'T tell you the truth, plain and simply. >atmosphere in some circles at the time was "How dare they do this to poor >sweet Gabby!!" >(Curiously enough nobody ever seemed to feel the same >way about Bad Things happening to >Xena. Oh my gods, you're SO right! Ever notice that Gabby fans FREAK when anything happens to Gab, but Xena fans love stuff happening to Xena? I mean, I LOVE The Gauntlet: hate it but love it. Sure, I don't like seeing Xena get beaten, but the story is SO rich for it. "Stuff" makes the characters have something to face and overcome. I welcomed whatever stuff they wanted to throw at either character. I complained only when I thought something was out of character or illogical. Like, I NEVER agreed with Gabby stabbing that guy in "Legacy." Oye that was a cheap and stupid plot device that made NO sense. :P That sort of thing I will contest. But I LOVE the Gab drag, the Gab Chak, the Gabinator, Xena getting her spine broken by the chakram, the Gauntlet - all AMAZING things that led to amazing stories or growth of characters. That's the point, isn't it? BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #55 *************************************