From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #54 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, February 25 2005 Volume 05 : Number 054 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 ... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) [IfeRae@ao] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 ... ["Xena Torres" >It had some good bits in it - anyone who's carefully watched the series > (as > >I > >think Saint Katherine of the Subtext had) can always score some points by > >clever back-references to previous episodes, and it's a perfectly > >legitimate > >technique. > > Well, of course. There were some cool moments there. And Lucy getting > crossed yet AGAIN, was surprisingly IMHO Lucy's best performance of it > (where you would have expected that or for her to just say, "Screw it" at > this point). > I have to agree with you about that. I know Some People hate how Xena was portrayed on FATES. Frankly, I was just so glad to see Lucy (and ROC) exploring her character in new ways. As a viewer, I loved having hindsight knowledge X& G didn't, comparing them to who they were in the other timeline, seeing which aspects LL&ROC chose to keep and which they made a little different. Like you, I thought Lucy did a great job with the nuances and energy level. I really liked the opening shot, where she conveyed what Xena might've been like (playful, sardonic, more "innocent" and carefree) without the betrayals and descent into darkness. I also liked how she became more the Xena we knew, as she intuited or learned that something was wrong. Regardless of my overall opinion of the FATES, I think the best part for me was watching Lucy recreate Xena while simultaneously trying to retain key aspects. Folks may disagree about how well that was done, but I really enjoyed the effort. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:44:58 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" In a message dated 2/23/2005 3:41:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, xenatorres@hotmail.com writes: > >I guess I'm wondering how much the internet skews our view of fandom, > since > >it is the primary way I know of for finding out about what's going on, > > It's true, but not the only way. In the past I've met fans by simply wearing > > my Xena shirt. I still do. I met people who aren't online and those who are, > > but by coming up to me and asking about my shirt, they are a fan - it might > just be their first time meeting a fellow fan. Yes, I've had the same experience. People will come up and say, "Hey, I watch that show and really like it." I'm just saying I think we on the internet are catalysts for such meetings. I wouldn't have XWP paraphernalia if I hadn't found out about much of it online. All the strangers I've met who've had on Xena stuff were in some way a part of online fandom. I rarely talk with any of them enough to hear their opinions on particular eps, but it makes me feel good to know there are all those folks "out there" who appreciate XWP in some fashion. Sort of a hidden part of the "Xenaverse" whom I consider "fans" in their own way. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:45:00 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) In a message dated 2/23/2005 1:08:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >Barefoot? Like Gabby? Bwahahahahaha! Yeah, yeah, I know -- she wasn't > >exactly "hunting" during that phase. I just couldn't resist. > > > >-- Ife > > IIRC Gabby was down a hole for all of Sin Trade and if she was barefoot her > tootsies woulda been getting nicely toasted. :) > LOL! Um, no, I was referring to her "barefoot and nonviolent" phase in S4. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:25:29 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 ... >I have to agree with you about that. I know Some People hate how Xena was >portrayed on FATES. I JUST liked the cross scene. And the opening Xena shot (In Livia's helmet nonetheless!) - but the opening shot sure as heck wasn't Lucy! As a whole - no, I did not care for the Xena of this story. Completely different character - oh sure, but I'm watching for XENA, not a kinda Xena. Claire had to be the highlight of the ep for me, and one of the main reasons I can sit through it. See, I find something to like in every ep. Yes, even in Fishpaste and Useless. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:58:05 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:19, Xena Torres wrote: > >I can't say I've heard quite the same intensity from those who loved an ep > >(any ep) that I have from some fans who hated certain eps. > > True, true. Well, except me. I can find something to like with EVERY ep. I > can watch ANY ep of Xena and enjoy myself. It's Xena. I prefer not to raise > arms over the matter. But eps I love, they move me as much the 30th time as > they did the 1st time. I still jump up and yell at the tv! "Look out, > damnit! She's behind you!" or whatever. ;) Yes, but you don't (I hope) go issuing threats or slandering those who don't share your enthusiasm? > >Specifically, The Deliverer, The Bitter Suite (Gabdrag), the middle of > >Season 5 (for no > >very good reason, the eps were surely not that controversial), and of > >course > >Friend in Need. > > The Deliverer? Huh? I don't recall complaining...unless you mean Gabby and > the fire scene. Oh, there was a firestorm over that (no pun intended). Part of it was that some moron leaked a spoiler that Gabs was going to be raped, Steve Sears was pressed for an answer on the Nutforum and said no she wasn't, then when the ep aired there was all sorts of accusations including that TPTB 'lied to the fans' (sound familiar?) Now, why on earth TPTB should be obligated to confirm spoilers I cannot imagine. What did they *expect* Steve to say? Besides which, in Steve's view (and mine!), what happened in Deliverer was not 'rape as we know it'. So then he was accused, utterly illogically, of condoning rape. As a result of which, Steve stopped chatting on the Nutforum. Thanks morons! (Whether it was 'rape' or not is not a matter of morals, just of definitions, IMO. Depends on whether you want to force totally mythical and impossible events into arbitrary modern-day categories - I don't.) > >And you know what? The reason - or one of the reasons - (IMO) that > > people fell in love with Xena was that it kept doing bold new things. > > And, changing. (The two are almost synonymous - it's hard to keep doing > > bold things without changing, or they cease to be bold and new). > >And of course you got some fans who said "I like this - don't change it!" > >But of course, if TPTB had stopped changing it, then (IMO) those same fans > >would have lost interest. > > Hear hear. Exactly. TV and movies are far to predictable now. I can watch a > show and KNOW everything that happens. For crying out loud, I've actually > figured out NAMES of characters before they are revealed (and I didn't read > any spoilers). For ex: Alias - though I loved it, at the end of season two, > as Vaughn's getting ready to tell Syd she's been missing, before he said > it, I joked, "You've been gone for two years." And low and behold - she had > been! 8\ Ack! Spoilers!!! I'm only half way through S2 so far. I'll do my best to forget you said that. But I know what you mean. > >Do you recall, in Season 5, the flak TPTB got for trying to reprise Sin > >Trade > >and The Debt with Them Bones, Purity and Back in the Bottle? It seems > >either way, they can't win. > > You know, I like "Them Bones, Them Bones." I love Claire! Gotta love > Claire! She was WICKLY lovely in that ep. "Purity" and "Back in the Bottle" > weren't great, but I enjoyed moments. Some great visuals! > But, I have to agree that they were > attempts to recreate the success of Debt and Sin Trade. Always go forward, > not backward. Yes but... after the first few eps, it's very hard to avoid repeating elements of them. Friend in Need for example had strong resemblances in its back-story to The Debt - only Japanese rather than Chinese. Ties That Bind, had resemblances to The Reckoning. I don't think there's anything wrong with attempting to reprise a successful ep - other than the possibility that, if the original ep was a classic (as The Debt and Sin Trade were), it's going to be that much harder to equal it. > >I disagree there... I rate S6 well above S4, myself, even though I dislike > >the wants of the loudest fanatics (are they by any chance spelt > >s-u-b-t..... > >:) as much as I think you do. But eps like Coming Home, the Ring > >trilogy, > >You Are There, Clones and Friend in Need, were IMO excellent (and not > >swamped with fan-demanded motifs). > > I didn't care for "Coming Home" cause I thought it made no sense. Um, Xena > could make Ares bleed even if he was a god. She's the GOD KILLER! Bull crap > his men hadn't heard that much by then. Who's going to tell them? I don't recall any of the Amazons for example commenting on the fact that Xena had just offed most of the Olympians. > Bah! I liked the amazons and Eve - > that was interesting, but could have been way better. And from my interview > with Adrienne, I know Lucy and Renee completely ad libed the chakram > forgiveness scene cause they didn't like what was in the script - but > personally, I thought it wasn't needed and the breezing over was just lame. Yes, I entirely agree there. But that (like subtext or bad eps) is just one of those things I overlook. > The Varia and Eve comparing scars was cheesy at best. "Well I killed my > guy's dog and his mother..." Kevin was great, but he's Kevin. The actors > were always great, but I didn't think much of the script. I thought there were some excellent scenes with Xena and Ares, and the Furies. Again, Varia and Eve (and it was cheesy) I could overlook. > And the Ring trilogy - honestly, I was completely bored with season six by > that point. I thought the Ring eps were dull and boring. Again, there WERE > things I liked, but they hardly stand out as great eps - "Return of the > Valkyrie" being my least liked of the three. We've already done the Xena > with a memory, and Gabrielle without a memory - write something new! Bah! Well, I think in that respect you'd be in a minority, because my impression is that the Ring trilogy are some of the best-liked eps of S6. > "You Are There" on the other just about killed me I laughed so damned hard! > THAT was brilliant! Agreed. Best comedy of the entire series IMO. > "Haunting of Amphipolis" I enjoyed (could have been better, but a lot of > cool issues and stuff that I thought rocked). > FIN - of COURSE! YEAH! I do love FIN. > "Helicon" was a cool idea, but could have been so much better. Hah! Talking about bad plots.... have you heard KT and I going on about 'Helicon'? > "The Path of Vengeance" was a tease. It really could have been a wicked > episode. There were a lot of cool elements, but I think a lot more could > have been done with it. I liked it as it was, but I could have LOVED it. > And...and...yeah, that's all I got for my really enjoyed eps of season six. > > >Hmmm... my choice of 5 great eps would be Chakram, God Fearing Child, > >Amphipolis Under Siege, Anthony & Cleopatra, LDITE, and Motherhood. > >That's > >six. (As you know, stinkers I just ignore when 'scoring' a season.) > > I didn't care for A&C. Romance bores me. EVERY show does it. Poo on 'Sex > sells." BOR-ING! :P Great look though. And Michael's a great director. Oh, I wasn't really interested in the romance with Anthony.... but the sets were great, the story was good (with doublecrosses all round) > >S3 - The Debts, Maternal Instincts, Bitter Suite, Sacrifice - that's six > >(if you count double eps). > > That's it? Season three has to be the best season for best all around > season, because it had the most number of STRONG, GREAT eps (and very few > in the stinker's bucket) Furies and Been There, Done That were great silly > Lucy eps. I was going to add to my previous post - I think I did, in fact - that I was omitting to mention a lot of eps I enjoyed but didn't quite rate in the 'great' category. Furies is certainly one of the eps that I rate as, if not great, then very good. BTDT I'd say is good. > Where's One Against an Army? Right in my dogbox. > Don't begrudge it just for it's map issues cr. ;) Not just that - but it's nothing but subtext. Great if yer a subtexter, but absolutely nothing in it for me, I can find more interest in Vanishing Act. > Forget Me Not - Xena knew how to make CLIP shows FRESH and > INTERESTING (or funny, depending). Yes, certainly so, but IMO clip shows are best saved for comedy eps (it's hard to advance the series plot much or have high drama when it's constantly being interrupted by clips). So as clip shows go, Clones was way the best, then Xena Scrolls, Deja Vu, Punch Lines, then Forget Me Not, and Athens Acdemy of Boring Bards way last. But then, I'd rate the Herc clip shows Yes Virginia and For Those of You Just Joining Us right up there with Clones. > Fins, Femmes & Gems - one of my fav > comedies. The Deliverer, Gabrielle's Hope, When in Rome... and of course > all the eps you mentioned above. :) The Deliverer and Gabs' Hope are, like The Furies, in my 'very good' category and on a good day they might make my 'greatest' category. > > >S1 - there's not one ep that makes it into my personal 'best ever' list. > >Possibly (in comedy) Royal Couple of Thieves. > >This is not to say there aren't eps I like - 'Fistful of Dinars' and > >'Callisto' - but they don't quite match the other eps I've named (for > > me). > > ACK! "Callisto" ranks among my top 20 if not my top 10. Brilliant ep. And > the introduction (not counting "The Greater Good" - another amazing ep) of > CALLISTO! Come on! Hudson RULES! Yes, entirely agreed, BUT of all the Callisto eps, IMO 'Callisto' is the least fun. Or, to put it another way, it's good, but all the other Callisto eps are even better. (With the exception of Seeds of Faith). Hudson would agree with that, I think, she commented somewhere that after S1 they started to have a little fun with the character. > Sins of the Past, The Reckonin, > Dreamworker, Is There a Doctor in the House?, Warrior...Princess, Mortal > Beloved - I think season one had a hell of a lot to offer. Beats season six > for me anyway. ;) Most certainly not for me! The Reckoning is fairly good (and it has Ares of course); Ties That Bind I find to be very similar. Dreamworker is quite good too (and I have a sneaking liking for Cradle of Hope, for no good reason I rather like Mary Elizabeth McGlynn) Warrior..Princess is good, Mortal Beloved is okay - but none of these eps come near my 'great eps' category. And ITADITH I rate with OAAA - great if you like subtext. > >Having said all that, there are many other eps in all seasons that I like, > >and maybe on a different day in a different mood some of those others > > would make it into my 'best' list, or some of those I've named would drop > > out. > > Indeed. See, I did say that! :) > > >I can understand why people didn't like Friend in Need. I really can't > >understand, though, why people got so het up about Season 5 episodes > > which, even according to their detractors, weren't appallingly bad, just > > not as good > >as they might have been. (Excepting, as always, Fishpaste :) > > Agreed. But, no, I don't get disliking FIN. I can understand to a point, > because I was certainly PISSED when I first watched it. I was mad at hell > that they killed Xena (it was never a concern for me that she wasn't with > Gab - cause I GOT the 'they will be together forever bits that must have > been expressed some 20 times throughout the series), but I was pissed that > Xena was dead. But then, I realized that I also hated the end of > "Hercules." It wasn't an end - it's just the end of what we get to see of > the journey. Yes, exactly the feeling I had with 'Full Circle'. IMO, God Fearing Child was a far more dramatic finale for the Herc story. > I wouldn't want "Xena" to have the same sort of ending. > Frankly, I think pretty much every series has gotten the finale WRONG. I > salute only "Xena" and "Roswell" for good, strong endings (and, also > "Profiler" if you consider the leaving of Ally Walker the last ep). But, > for the only series to ever COMPLETELY NAIL the finale (cause FIN also had > a lot that could have been better or made more sense), though fans had to > wait a YEAR for it, "Farscape" wins. What an ending! If you mean 'Farscape - PK Wars', I've been keeping spoiler-free - do NOT spoil me! > >It had some good bits in it - anyone who's carefully watched the series > > (as I > >think Saint Katherine of the Subtext had) can always score some points by > >clever back-references to previous episodes, and it's a perfectly > >legitimate technique. > > Well, of course. There were some cool moments there. And Lucy getting > crossed yet AGAIN, was surprisingly IMHO Lucy's best performance of it > (where you would have expected that or for her to just say, "Screw it" at > this point). Yes, good performance. But I still think The Vision can't be matched as the coolest crucifixion scene ever. If only because of the unexpectedly ..cool... way it was photographed (no puns intended, btw). > >And I did like the way Joxer was written - very mature. > > Yep. But he wasn't Joxer. Ted played Barnabus. Obviously they had had him > signed up for a certain numbers of eps or something - or maybe he was > supposed to be Joxer and then they changed it. OK, rephrase that - my impression is, Barnabas was the alt-Joxer - the capable one, the better side of his character. > >And of course, Claire as always did a fine job with Alti (is it *ever* > >possible to be 'over the top' >with Alti? I doubt it :) > > Um...yeah. Actually, yeah. Claire should NEVER yell as Alti. She loses that > wicked cool creepy ALTI voice when she yells and it just DOESN'T work. "Her > fallen angel." - oh, that was bad. Alti is WAY scarier without yelling. But > that wasn't a script issue - that was a director issue to have her yell. > Fawcett should have caught that Claire couldn't make it ALTI when she was > yelling and rethought that shot. Which shot was that? > >But the subtext swamped all (for full details consult any post by KT ) > > *sigh* Yeah. Don't get me wrong - even though I was NOT a Xena/Gab > subtexter, I still enjoyed the subtext. "Altared States," "A Day in the > Life" and "Fins, Femmes & Gems" had such fun, but also, sometimes hard to > spot references. Young as I was when "Fins" first aired, I must admit, I > did not get the fist a fish joke until a lesbian friend of mine, KINDA > explained it to me. :/ But then it was funny as hell - ALL the fish jokes. > ;) Hey, I was only 17! Give me a break. So my mind wasn't warped yet. LOL! I think I've just got it.... 8-) > >As a contrast, for an ep where there was mucho subtext but it wasn't > > poured all over everything like warm maple syrup, consider the 'Ring' > > trilogy. For > >example where Beowulf and Brunnhilde were so solicitous of Gabs' welfare > >and > >Xena was visibly discomfited. That was nicely done and amusing even to > >this non-subtexter. > > Agreed. And "You Are There." "Are you two...LOVERS." Michael was damned > hilarious! > BATTLE ON XENA! Don't you mean Nigel? Oh, _Michael_ Hurst! Of course. Yes. (I was thinking of Michael the _Archangel!!_ :) Well, actually, he was hilarious too. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:20:08 -0600 From: "Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:19:27 -0500 meredith wrote: >>Specifically, who are the "six" people you're referring to? Am I one of >>them? > > The folks on this list -- which remains the *only* place online where I > have seen a positive response to FIN voiced at all. > > (And just to be clear: I know that not everyone on chakram-refugees has a > positive view of FIN, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. What > I'm > saying is, the only people I know of who do have a positive view of it > happen to be here on the list.) Just out of curiosity, how many people are still on this list? Or is that classified information? XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:49:42 -0500 From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] [almost OT] Pompeii: The Last Day I just watched this and I agree, it was interesting and informative. Despite seeing many shows / movies on volcanoes this was THE BEST. I have been to the Amalfi coast off Naples and it is one of the most beautiful places I have been to. You would never think Vesuvius was a threat... so many people and the volcano just appears to be another mountain. After seeing this show it makes one wonder how millions can live at the foot of it everyday without a care. CJ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #54 *************************************