From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #52 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, February 23 2005 Volume 05 : Number 052 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 ... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) [IfeRae@ao] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) ["Mark B."] Re: [chakram-refugees] question about season 6 DVDs [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) [cr Many of the letters were mixed in their reactions, not as universally > one-sided as we might imagine in retrospect. > I have to agree with you. There were a lot of emotions tied up with AFIN, certainly the sadness over losing our favorite show no matter how it ended. Like you, I heard concerns over brutality or plot, mixed in with general praise. If somebody asked me, I'd say I hated seeing *any* ending, that I didn't like seeing my hero beheaded, but that I loved how the show went out with the same roller-coaster provocativeness and "give it our all" professionalism that kept me glued all along. You could pick out any one of those comments to support a particular "side," but the truth would lie in accepting them as a whole. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:25:11 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" In a message dated 2/22/2005 12:36:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, xenatorres@hotmail.com writes: > I think that, at the core, a fan is someone who doesn't just watch a show. > I > think that a fan would be defined as someone who likes to DISCUSS a show, in > > whatever manner that may be. It could be on a mailing list, at a con, or > merely with your fellow co-workers the next day. But, I do think that to be > a fan, you must be involved with other fans in at least this small way. > Admittedly, I'm only familiar with XWP-related discussion lists, but they tended to have tons of lurkers who may have liked seeing discussions, but rarely if ever participated. I've also run into people who absolutely loved the show but aren't into net or fan stuff. Some didn't even realize there was a "Xenaverse" of folks like them. Some found the show to be a fairly private experience -- something they enjoyed for their own reasons and weren't all that interested in the cast, production or others' views. If asked, they might all consider themselves "fans" of the show. I guess I'm wondering how much the internet skews our view of fandom, since it is the primary way I know of for finding out about what's going on, what's available to read or buy, who else is interested in talking about the show, etc. I wouldn't be talking about XWP, if not for the internet. It's just not something most of my friends or colleagues want to talk about. Add to that those who aren't computer literate (or even have a computer) or comfortable with writing (mainly in English), and we could be leaving out quite a few folks. Does it matter what they think, if we don't know about it? Kind of like the tree that falls and nobody hears it? :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:25:14 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6... In a message dated 2/21/2005 10:28:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, mab961@satx.rr.com writes: > Coming out of the woodwork..... > > While I hated to see the series end, I always thought that TPTB could end it > however they wanted to. I did like seeing Gabrielle solo on the ship. > Well... > actually it kinda tore me up, but I thought it did symbolize her starting > out > on her own. >> My sentiments as well. > > Since I'm a rather infrequent poster, am I part o a silent majority or just > an > infrequent poster ? > How 'bout a "fan"? -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:25:17 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 ... In a message dated 2/21/2005 9:27:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, meth@smoe.org writes: > >Um, just out of curiosity, where do we find "the entire Xenaverse"? > > When I used the term in that context, I was thinking of: > > -- the folks at Xena Night > -- the people who wrote articles condemning FIN at Whoosh! > -- the people who left this list over FIN > -- the people who go to cons (specifically, those who give a Bronx cheer > whenever the ending of FIN is mentioned and those who verbally abused TPTB > over the ending of FIN) > -- the whackjobs who threatened TPTB after FIN aired >. That's giving those folks a lot of power. As I said awhile back, I think some of us give them a lot more credence than their true representation warrants. Like cr says in another post, there were a lot of other voices that were more subdued and "singular" in expression. If we don't include them in "the entire Xenaverse," who will? Sure, maybe there are folks sympathetic to AFIN on this list, but many may be new and get the impression that we're somehow out of the "mainstream" of fandom. I don't know that that's true, certainly not based on those who are the loudest. I remember asking somebody about one of those cons you speak of. She was sitting in the back. I asked her what most people were doing during the negative stuff. She said sometimes politely clappling or just sitting there shaking their heads. That "spoke" reams to me. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:25:16 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) In a message dated 2/21/2005 9:46:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > The ground between the trees is mostly free of undergrowth and there are > little trails all over the forest, and the carpet of pine needles is very > pleasant underfoot (specially for me since I won't wear shoes except to the > office!), >> Wow. I've gotta say -- that image brought a big ol' grin to my face. > > Cleared forest, on the other hand, where the tree-mass-murderers with > chainsaws have been, is not so pleasant; bare bleak hillsides, covered with > sharp splintered bits of branches and with all sorts of weeds and scrub > growing where the tree cover has been removed. I can understand why the > Amazons were so upset when Ares started wrecking their forest in 'Coming > Home'. >> Oh, it so saddens me to hear about the trees. I don't suppose we could declare all of NZ an international treasure that must be preserved? > One slight disaster - when I got there I found I'd left at home, my copy of > > the map _and_ all my scans from Xena eps. Still, the Amazon camp from Sin > Trade / Them Bones is etched on my memory, from having captured and printed > them a few days ago, so I was fairly sure of being able to identify the > magic > spot if I found it. (Oddly, I can't find my scans _anywhere_, they've > totally disappeared). >> That's okay. We may dispute what your brain registers about plot points, but I have every confidence when it comes to geography. > > So, what did I discover? Well, one delightful surprise was that, from the > edge of the forest just north of Lake Okaihau ('Swan Lake'), there was a > waterfall staring me in the face. Actually, it's a mile away, but it's > remarkable how something moving in the landscape - such as a waterfall - > screams out to be noticed. Toroanui Falls is marked on the map, but it's > in > the middle of private farmland but I never expected to be able to see it > from > that distance. >> More private land? Grrrrr. Perhaps you should do one of those geneology things to see if you're related to any of the land owners. There was no sign of Okiritoto Falls just above it, which is > > hidden by the curving valley sides in the usual way of waterfalls. Anyway, > it's another waterfall to add to my collection and see if it 'fits' any of > the unknown waterfalls from Xena. >> You already found the one in "Many Happy Returns," right? > The site of the ambush of Pompey's troops is possibly in 'Cable Road' > (which, > like all the forest 'roads', is just a track), just west of where it crosses > > the Okiritoto Stream on a wooden bridge. (And no, I couldn't 'fit' the > bridge to anything). I guess I need to go back when I've re-printed the > scans and check these scenes to make sure. >. Okay, sorry, you lost me on troop movement. I have to admit, the only thing I cared about was Lucy's riding double racing through the flames. > > The one big scene I couldn't locate - and I *should* be able to do so if > it's > there, since it must be within a few yards of a motorable track, for > logistics reasons - is the Sin Trade Amazon camp. There's the depressing > possibility that since a couple of square miles of the forest nearest to > Muriwai have been logged recently, that it's gone. >> Oh, no! I loved the Amazon scenes in ST. Heck, I still imagine the place where those skeletons were staked out on trees -- kind of a permament memorial site in my mind. A little morbid, I know. Possibly Ares' > > destruction of the Amazons' forest in Coming Home was inspired by an actual > event. I do hope not, since in that case locating the site would involve > painful tramping over desolate wrecked hillsides, and instead of the > pleasurable excitement of finding a scene that matches the scans, it would > be > more like a forensic investigation. >> I always wondered about that scene, hoping they'd somehow CGI's footage from another decimated forest. > > Anyway, the hunt will continue.... > Barefoot? Like Gabby? Bwahahahahaha! Yeah, yeah, I know -- she wasn't exactly "hunting" during that phase. I just couldn't resist. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:09:06 -0600 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) ----- Original Message ----- From: IfeRae@aol.com To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 23:25 Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) In a message dated 2/21/2005 9:46:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > One slight disaster - when I got there I found I'd left at home, my copy of > > the map _and_ all my scans from Xena eps. Still, the Amazon camp from Sin > Trade / Them Bones is etched on my memory, from having captured and printed > them a few days ago, so I was fairly sure of being able to identify the > magic > spot if I found it. (Oddly, I can't find my scans _anywhere_, they've > totally disappeared). >> That's okay. We may dispute what your brain registers about plot points, but I have every confidence when it comes to geography. I think that is *great* that you are able to go tromping out in the bush looking for all these sites and describing them so -- really great for those of us who will probably never make it your way to tromp around and get lost on our own! > > > The one big scene I couldn't locate - and I *should* be able to do so if > it's > there, since it must be within a few yards of a motorable track, for > logistics reasons - is the Sin Trade Amazon camp. There's the depressing > possibility that since a couple of square miles of the forest nearest to > Muriwai have been logged recently, that it's gone. >> Oh, no! I loved the Amazon scenes in ST. Heck, I still imagine the place where those skeletons were staked out on trees -- kind of a permament memorial site in my mind. A little morbid, I know. I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned this morbid thought... . I guess like so many of the various iconic scenes, sets, and vista views, we can always look deep in our mind's eye and kinda conjure up various "memorial sites"! Possibly Ares' > > destruction of the Amazons' forest in Coming Home was inspired by an actual > event. I do hope not, since in that case locating the site would involve > painful tramping over desolate wrecked hillsides, and instead of the > pleasurable excitement of finding a scene that matches the scans, it would > be > more like a forensic investigation. >> I always wondered about that scene, hoping they'd somehow CGI's footage from another decimated forest. I haven't watched that ep for a while... was it a forest fire or clear cutting? Whatever it was, I think it looked like some 'documentary' footage or something. Mark ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:56:45 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] question about season 6 DVDs On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 06:58, cr wrote: > > Um...actually, Director's Cut are most often put together FIRST. Rob > > would have cut this peice together and then been told he had to take out > > 16 minutes. > > BATTLE ON XENA! (snip) Further thought - the 'Director's Cuts' on the Season 4 DVD's should actually be called 'Director's rough cuts', I think. They're the ones with the extra material in, that Rick Jacobson saved. It's my impression that the fully finished cut is usually only the standard TV length. (Otherwise the Director's Cut of Sacrifice 2 would indeed be a joy to see). I think most of the movie 'Director's Cuts' out there were probably put together _after_ the film was a success, or (these days) they may be deliberately put together at the same time as the cinema version with an eye to the DVD release. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:42:30 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:46, Xena Torres wrote: > >In number, or in intensity? > > > >Somehow, the nutters who hate something always seem to scream much louder > >than the fans >who love something. (I hasten to add that I'm not > > lumping everyone who disliked FIN into the >category of 'nutters' - just > > the lunatic fringe). Since you mention Whoosh, it's the most extreme > >off-the-wall articles that seem to attract attention and stick in > > memory. > > > > Any moderate opinions >seem to get swamped in the noise. > > > >The same thing happened in Season 5, and over the Rift episodes. > > I have to agree, though, the same CAN be said for people who are 'nutters' > (to coin your phrase) over things they like about the show so much that > they drown out other fans' views (neg or postive), such as those who loved > "When Fates Collide" and those who thought it was the most boring episode > ever. I can't say I've heard quite the same intensity from those who loved an ep (any ep) that I have from some fans who hated certain eps. Specifically, The Deliverer, The Bitter Suite (Gabdrag), the middle of Season 5 (for no very good reason, the eps were surely not that controversial), and of course Friend in Need. Curiously enough, though the 'Gabchak' in Motherhood caused some controversy, I don't recall it reaching the intensity of those other incidents I mentioned. > Personally, I warn all TPTB to NEVER listen to the fans when deciding where > a show should go. YOU created it, it's YOUR vision and YOUR world and YOUR > characters. We started watching what YOU created. Why the hell would we > want to watch that show be changed into something only the loudest voices > (not necessarly the majority) want. Fans don't know what the hell we want. Absolutely! And you know what? The reason - or one of the reasons - (IMO) that people fell in love with Xena was that it kept doing bold new things. And, changing. (The two are almost synonymous - it's hard to keep doing bold things without changing, or they cease to be bold and new). And of course you got some fans who said "I like this - don't change it!" But of course, if TPTB had stopped changing it, then (IMO) those same fans would have lost interest. Do you recall, in Season 5, the flak TPTB got for trying to reprise Sin Trade and The Debt with Them Bones, Purity and Back in the Bottle? It seems either way, they can't win. > Look at any show with sexual tension characters. Everyone is always > screaming, "Get them together, get them together!" but the moment they do, > interest wanes, ratings fall, and it can often lead to death of a series. ROTFL!! Yes, only too true. > "Xena" pushed the envelope. It refused to be a certain kind of show. "Xena" > was simply GREAT TV for whatever reason you watched. > > At least, that was my view on the first five seasons. For me, season six, > despite a few good eps, was the low point of the series, because it saw > TPTB lose their vision and instead slap together the wants of the loudest > fanatics (yes, I use fanatics here, not fans - there is a thing as TOO > far). I disagree there... I rate S6 well above S4, myself, even though I dislike the wants of the loudest fanatics (are they by any chance spelt s-u-b-t..... :) as much as I think you do. But eps like Coming Home, the Ring trilogy, You Are There, Clones and Friend in Need, were IMO excellent (and not swamped with fan-demanded motifs). > Season five I thought was daring. Yeah, it DID have low points (die > "Fishsticks" DIE!), but Rob pointed out that you have to hope for at least > five (I think that was the number he said) great episodes and a few > stinkers. Season five gave us "Fallen Angel," "Chakram," "Animal > Attraction" (you lie if you didn't laugh), "Seeds of Faith," Lyre, Lyre," > "God Fearing Child," "Amphipolis Under Siege," "Looking Death in the Eye," > "Livia," "Eve" (my personal favourite episode) and "Motherhood." It brought > back Ares and Aphrodite. It gave us Athena and Livia/Eve. Hmmm... my choice of 5 great eps would be Chakram, God Fearing Child, Amphipolis Under Siege, Anthony & Cleopatra, LDITE, and Motherhood. That's six. (As you know, stinkers I just ignore when 'scoring' a season.) > Season six was the same thing over and over and over again. But, everyone > seems to like the boring and expected, so who am I to complain? Hmmm... see my para. above, I just nominated seven IMO excellent eps from S6. Trying to apply the same to other seasons - S4 - Sin Trades, Endgame, Ides - that's only four, even counting Sin Trade as two eps. S3 - The Debts, Maternal Instincts, Bitter Suite, Sacrifice - that's six (if you count double eps). S2 - Return of Callisto, Intimate Stranger, Ten Little Warlords, Destiny, A Necessary Evil - that's five. S1 - there's not one ep that makes it into my personal 'best ever' list. Possibly (in comedy) Royal Couple of Thieves. This is not to say there aren't eps I like - 'Fistful of Dinars' and 'Callisto' - but they don't quite match the other eps I've named (for me). Having said all that, there are many other eps in all seasons that I like, and maybe on a different day in a different mood some of those others would make it into my 'best' list, or some of those I've named would drop out. > Personally, I will never understand the rage season five brought people, > the same as I will not understand how people could not like FIN or why > people enjoy season six. I can understand why people didn't like Friend in Need. I really can't understand, though, why people got so het up about Season 5 episodes which, even according to their detractors, weren't appallingly bad, just not as good as they might have been. (Excepting, as always, Fishpaste :) > I get why people are so into "When Fates Collide" > but was that SLOW and boring episode really THAT great. No, everyone just > loved the over the top subtext which pretty much screamed maintext in that > ep. That's not good writing - that's a cheap gimic, and not what made > "Xena" great. *tsk* > BATTLE ON XENA! I agree, of course, about the subtext. It had some good bits in it - anyone who's carefully watched the series (as I think Saint Katherine of the Subtext had) can always score some points by clever back-references to previous episodes, and it's a perfectly legitimate technique. (It also flatters the audience by assuming they're sufficiently knowledgeable to 'get' the references). Nothing wrong with that. And I did like the way Joxer was written - very mature. And of course, Claire as always did a fine job with Alti (is it *ever* possible to be 'over the top' with Alti? I doubt it :) But the subtext swamped all (for full details consult any post by KT ) As a contrast, for an ep where there was mucho subtext but it wasn't poured all over everything like warm maple syrup, consider the 'Ring' trilogy. For example where Beowulf and Brunnhilde were so solicitous of Gabs' welfare and Xena was visibly discomfited. That was nicely done and amusing even to this non-subtexter. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:25:20 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:09, Mark B. wrote: > I think that is *great* that you are able to go tromping out in the bush > looking for all these sites and describing them so -- really great for > those of us who will probably never make it your way to tromp around and > get lost on our own! Well, it's one - probably the only - unique advantage of living in Auckland :) > > The one big scene I couldn't locate - and I *should* be able to do so > > if it's > > there, since it must be within a few yards of a motorable track, for > > logistics reasons - is the Sin Trade Amazon camp. There's the > > depressing possibility that since a couple of square miles of the > > forest nearest to Muriwai have been logged recently, that it's gone. >> > > Oh, no! I loved the Amazon scenes in ST. Heck, I still imagine the > place where those skeletons were staked out on trees -- kind of a permament > memorial > site in my mind. A little morbid, I know. > > I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned this morbid thought... . > I guess like so many of the various iconic scenes, sets, and vista views, > we can always look deep in our mind's eye and kinda conjure up various > "memorial sites"! Well, being in a commercial pine forest, _every_ bit of the forest - including those locations that are still exactly the same as when it was filmed - will be logged sooner or later. And when the forest regrows, after another 10-15 years, the locations may or may not be recognisable - I'm not sure how much the configuration of individual trees, and how much the configuration of the underlying ground, contributes to the 'look' of a site. And, since the ground is sandy and easily modified, I'm not sure how much disturbance the logging operation would cause anyway. So, I'm afraid the forest sites are likely to be transitory, at least over a period of years. > > Possibly Ares' > > > destruction of the Amazons' forest in Coming Home was inspired by an > > actual > > event. I do hope not, since in that case locating the site would > > involve painful tramping over desolate wrecked hillsides, and instead > > of the pleasurable excitement of finding a scene that matches the > > scans, it would be > > more like a forensic investigation. >> > > I always wondered about that scene, hoping they'd somehow CGI's footage > from another decimated forest. > > I haven't watched that ep for a while... was it a forest fire or clear > cutting? Whatever it was, I think it looked like some 'documentary' > footage or something. I haven't watched it either - could have been clear cutting with a bit of smoke from Renpics effects guys. Or, could've been stock footage, at that. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:32:15 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:11, Jean wrote: > I'll come out of the woodwork and weigh in on this, as well. > > CJ, you have said much that I feel. I liked it, but it hurts. Call me a > softie but I could have lived with a storybook ending of "happy forever > aftering". I also know that sort of ending is not necessarily in harmony > with all the different themes raised throughout the series but it is also > not entirely out of bounds either. Well, logically, there were many episodes that Xena and Gabs 'walked away from' - but there was always going to be one last one where they didn't. So, either ending for FIN would 'fit'. I don't think it's possible to say that either would have been 'wrong' or not in keeping with the series. (Unless, of course, one is reading some sort of philosophical 'message' into the series - something I prefer to avoid). But given Xena's life, I don't think one could ever guarantee 'happy ever after' - the most one could hope for would be a 'happy this time'. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:22:51 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] VOTING IS LIVE! Be part of the Best Of XENA DVD Set (fwd) On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:26, Xena Torres wrote: > >The only fanfic I could ever bring myself to read were Jade's hilarious > >parodies of a few years back - mind you, she was just sooo _not_ a > >subtexter > > LOL. I don't read much myself, but I used to read EVERY Whoosh article, > and, frankly, The Bitter Treat is funny as hell. We were leant a copy for > the 3rd PNW XenaFest, and, subtexter or not, you'll laugh! Oh yeah, Issue 19. Just read it. Very good! > >>Now if I only Ashera and I would get our butts in gear on our parody > >>"Adventures in the Muppet >>Trade"... > > > >That's not a parody on Farscape by any chance? > > No. It's a parody with the Muppets. Ah. I believe on Farscape it was considered very impolite to call Rygel a 'Muppet' > Kermit and the gang. Hee hee. This > messed up thought came to our mind when we heard Seasame Street was going > to kill off Bert to stray off the "Bert and Ernie are gay" issue (I > actually hear they DID kill Bert - can anyone confirm?) So, over dinner one > day, shortly after Sin Trade had aired, we started picturing Ernie on a > search for dead Bert. Suddenly, all we had cast muppets in the roles of the > Xena characters (Cyane would be Miss Piggy, Borias would be played by > Animal and the Swedish Chef would be ALTI!) and the harder we laughed, the > more we got into it. Ashera and I do have plans to shoot this movie > someday, but seeing as we'll have to make all the muppets ourselves, it > will be some time. ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Sounds a hoot of an idea, though. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:17:01 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:25, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/21/2005 9:46:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > The ground between the trees is mostly free of undergrowth and there are > > little trails all over the forest, and the carpet of pine needles is very > > pleasant underfoot (specially for me since I won't wear shoes except to > > the office!), >> > > Wow. I've gotta say -- that image brought a big ol' grin to my face. I hasten to add, it's not that I can't afford them! :) But, when I was growing up, in the Auckland climate, it was quite practical for kids to not wear shoes most of the summer, specially when going to the beach. Since then, it's become trendy to wear some sort of fancy footwear (like sneakers or running shoes or whatever) for almost everything; but my anti-trendy instincts go hand in hand with my mental image of 'going to the beach' in this case, and I much prefer not to wear shoes on the weekend unless it's actually freezing. > > Cleared forest, on the other hand, where the tree-mass-murderers with > > chainsaws have been, is not so pleasant; bare bleak hillsides, covered > > with sharp splintered bits of branches and with all sorts of weeds and > > scrub growing where the tree cover has been removed. I can understand > > why the Amazons were so upset when Ares started wrecking their forest in > > 'Coming Home'. >> > > Oh, it so saddens me to hear about the trees. I don't suppose we could > declare all of NZ an international treasure that must be preserved? Errm, they're pinus radiata. I have to add that the nicest part of the forest to walk through is the most artificial, having been planted maybe 20 years ago, and thinned (and the lower branches lopped off) a couple of times since. Un-thinned areas have a lot more branches near ground level (see the forest Ephiny was leading the Amazons through right at the start of Endgame - much harder to negotiate). So I can't really raise any moral indignation at the people who planted it (or their successors) cashing in; only emotional upset. :) > > One slight disaster - when I got there I found I'd left at home, my copy > > of > > the map _and_ all my scans from Xena eps. Still, the Amazon camp from > > Sin Trade / Them Bones is etched on my memory, from having captured and > > printed them a few days ago, so I was fairly sure of being able to > > identify the magic > > spot if I found it. (Oddly, I can't find my scans _anywhere_, they've > > totally disappeared). >> > > That's okay. We may dispute what your brain registers about plot points, > but I have every confidence when it comes to geography. Thank you. I have to say, though, that one bit of a forest looks so like another that one really does need the scans to be entirely sure. > > So, what did I discover? Well, one delightful surprise was that, from > > the edge of the forest just north of Lake Okaihau ('Swan Lake'), there > > was a waterfall staring me in the face. Actually, it's a mile away, but > > it's remarkable how something moving in the landscape - such as a > > waterfall - screams out to be noticed. Toroanui Falls is marked on the > > map, but it's in > > the middle of private farmland but I never expected to be able to see it > > from that distance. >> > > More private land? Grrrrr. Perhaps you should do one of those geneology > things to see if you're related to any of the land owners. Maybe I should just bribe them. Or sneak in under cover of darkness disgused as the back end of a cow. :) > > There was no sign of Okiritoto Falls just above it, which is > > > hidden by the curving valley sides in the usual way of waterfalls. > > Anyway, it's another waterfall to add to my collection and see if it > > 'fits' any of the unknown waterfalls from Xena. >> > > You already found the one in "Many Happy Returns," right? No, not at all. I'm thinking Toroanui Falls may be 'it'. However I'm waiting to see if my film comes out (I used a 200mm lens with a 2x tele-extender, and frankly focussing that wearing glasses is a bit uncertain) - - and when I get the filmback tomorrow I'll check against the episode. > > The site of the ambush of Pompey's troops is possibly in 'Cable Road' > > (which, > > like all the forest 'roads', is just a track), just west of where it > > crosses > > the Okiritoto Stream on a wooden bridge. (And no, I couldn't 'fit' the > > bridge to anything). I guess I need to go back when I've re-printed the > > scans and check these scenes to make sure. >. > > Okay, sorry, you lost me on troop movement. I have to admit, the only > thing I cared about was Lucy's riding double racing through the flames. I think you're referring to the final battle, when Pompey lost his head? That was actually at Lion Park. There were three previous skirmishes in Endgame - the beginning where Ephiny got killed, the ambush when Xena captured Brutus, and the ambush of Pompey's troops and their Amazon slaves. It's the third of those that I'm referring to. > > The one big scene I couldn't locate - and I *should* be able to do so if > > it's > > there, since it must be within a few yards of a motorable track, for > > logistics reasons - is the Sin Trade Amazon camp. There's the > > depressing possibility that since a couple of square miles of the forest > > nearest to Muriwai have been logged recently, that it's gone. >> > > Oh, no! I loved the Amazon scenes in ST. Heck, I still imagine the place > where those skeletons were staked out on trees -- kind of a permament > memorial site in my mind. A little morbid, I know. I'm rather hoping, that since none of the logged areas is a very obvious candidate for the valley that the camp was in, it will turn up still intact after all. I still have a couple of square miles near the forest entrance to try. > > Possibly Ares' > > destruction of the Amazons' forest in Coming Home was inspired by an > > actual event. I do hope not, since in that case locating the site would > > involve painful tramping over desolate wrecked hillsides, and instead of > > the pleasurable excitement of finding a scene that matches the scans, it > > would be more like a forensic investigation. >> > > I always wondered about that scene, hoping they'd somehow CGI's footage > from another decimated forest. Wouldn't need to CGI. There's plenty of area of cleared forest to use. But the way these forests work, they clear a bit at a time - so in any forest, there's always a lot of mature woodland and a certain percentage of cleared land re-growing. > > Anyway, the hunt will continue.... > > Barefoot? Like Gabby? Bwahahahahaha! Yeah, yeah, I know -- she wasn't > exactly "hunting" during that phase. I just couldn't resist. > > -- Ife IIRC Gabby was down a hole for all of Sin Trade and if she was barefoot her tootsies woulda been getting nicely toasted. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:35:03 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] VOTING IS LIVE! Be part of the Best Of XENA DVD Set (fwd) >>No. It's a parody with the Muppets. >Ah. I believe on Farscape it was considered very impolite to call Rygel a >'Muppet' LOL! Yeah, I wouldn't call Rygel or Pilot muppets. Jim Henson's workshop does all sorts of critters, but only the muppets are muppets. I mean, you wouldn't call the Ninja Turtles muppets. Or the critters of "Labrinyth," "Dark Crystal" or "Witches" muppets. The puppets of "Farscape" are most certainly NOT muppets. ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:19:16 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) >I can't say I've heard quite the same intensity from those who loved an ep >(any ep) that I have from some fans who hated certain eps. True, true. Well, except me. I can find something to like with EVERY ep. I can watch ANY ep of Xena and enjoy myself. It's Xena. I prefer not to raise arms over the matter. But eps I love, they move me as much the 30th time as they did the 1st time. I still jump up and yell at the tv! "Look out, damnit! She's behind you!" or whatever. ;) >Specifically, The Deliverer, The Bitter Suite (Gabdrag), the middle of >Season 5 (for no >very good reason, the eps were surely not that controversial), and of >course >Friend in Need. The Deliverer? Huh? I don't recall complaining...unless you mean Gabby and the fire scene. >And you know what? The reason - or one of the reasons - (IMO) that people >fell in love with Xena was that it kept doing bold new things. And, >changing. (The two are almost synonymous - it's hard to keep doing bold >things without changing, or they cease to be bold and new). >And of course you got some fans who said "I like this - don't change it!" >But of course, if TPTB had stopped changing it, then (IMO) those same fans >would have lost interest. Hear hear. Exactly. TV and movies are far to predictable now. I can watch a show and KNOW everything that happens. For crying out loud, I've actually figured out NAMES of characters before they are revealed (and I didn't read any spoilers). For ex: Alias - though I loved it, at the end of season two, as Vaughn's getting ready to tell Syd she's been missing, before he said it, I joked, "You've been gone for two years." And low and behold - she had been! 8\ >Do you recall, in Season 5, the flak TPTB got for trying to reprise Sin >Trade >and The Debt with Them Bones, Purity and Back in the Bottle? It seems >either way, they can't win. You know, I like "Them Bones, Them Bones." I love Claire! Gotta love Claire! She was WICKLY lovely in that ep. "Purity" and "Back in the Bottle" weren't great, but I enjoyed moments. But, I have to agree that they were attempts to recreate the success of Debt and Sin Trade. Always go forward, not backward. >I disagree there... I rate S6 well above S4, myself, even though I dislike >the wants of the loudest fanatics (are they by any chance spelt >s-u-b-t..... >:) as much as I think you do. But eps like Coming Home, the Ring >trilogy, >You Are There, Clones and Friend in Need, were IMO excellent (and not >swamped with fan-demanded motifs). I didn't care for "Coming Home" cause I thought it made no sense. Um, Xena could make Ares bleed even if he was a god. She's the GOD KILLER! Bull crap his men hadn't heard that much by then. Bah! I liked the amazons and Eve - that was interesting, but could have been way better. And from my interview with Adrienne, I know Lucy and Renee completely ad libed the chakram forgiveness scene cause they didn't like what was in the script - but personally, I thought it wasn't needed and the breezing over was just lame. The Varia and Eve comparing scars was cheesy at best. "Well I killed my guy's dog and his mother..." Kevin was great, but he's Kevin. The actors were always great, but I didn't think much of the script. And the Ring trilogy - honestly, I was completely bored with season six by that point. I thought the Ring eps were dull and boring. Again, there WERE things I liked, but they hardly stand out as great eps - "Return of the Valkyrie" being my least liked of the three. We've already done the Xena with a memory, and Gabrielle without a memory - write something new! Bah! "You Are There" on the other just about killed me I laughed so damned hard! THAT was brilliant! "Haunting of Amphipolis" I enjoyed (could have been better, but a lot of cool issues and stuff that I thought rocked). FIN - of COURSE! YEAH! I do love FIN. "Helicon" was a cool idea, but could have been so much better. "The Path of Vengeance" was a tease. It really could have been a wicked episode. There were a lot of cool elements, but I think a lot more could have been done with it. I liked it as it was, but I could have LOVED it. And...and...yeah, that's all I got for my really enjoyed eps of season six. >Hmmm... my choice of 5 great eps would be Chakram, God Fearing Child, >Amphipolis Under Siege, Anthony & Cleopatra, LDITE, and Motherhood. >That's >six. (As you know, stinkers I just ignore when 'scoring' a season.) I didn't care for A&C. Romance bores me. EVERY show does it. Poo on 'Sex sells." BOR-ING! :P Great look though. And Michael's a great director. >S3 - The Debts, Maternal Instincts, Bitter Suite, Sacrifice - that's six >(if you count double eps). That's it? Season three has to be the best season for best all around season, because it had the most number of STRONG, GREAT eps (and very few in the stinker's bucket) Furies and Been There, Done That were great silly Lucy eps. Where's One Against an Army? Don't begrudge it just for it's map issues cr. ;) Forget Me Not - Xena knew how to make CLIP shows FRESH and INTERESTING (or funny, depending). Fins, Femmes & Gems - one of my fav comedies. The Deliverer, Gabrielle's Hope, When in Rome... and of course all the eps you mentioned above. :) >S1 - there's not one ep that makes it into my personal 'best ever' list. >Possibly (in comedy) Royal Couple of Thieves. >This is not to say there aren't eps I like - 'Fistful of Dinars' and >'Callisto' - but they don't quite match the other eps I've named (for me). ACK! "Callisto" ranks among my top 20 if not my top 10. Brilliant ep. And the introduction (not counting "The Greater Good" - another amazing ep) of CALLISTO! Come on! Hudson RULES! Sins of the Past, The Reckonin, Dreamworker, Is There a Doctor in the House?, Warrior...Princess, Mortal Beloved - I think season one had a hell of a lot to offer. Beats season six for me anyway. ;) >Having said all that, there are many other eps in all seasons that I like, >and maybe on a different day in a different mood some of those others would >make it into my 'best' list, or some of those I've named would drop out. Indeed. >I can understand why people didn't like Friend in Need. I really can't >understand, though, why people got so het up about Season 5 episodes which, >even according to their detractors, weren't appallingly bad, just not as >good >as they might have been. (Excepting, as always, Fishpaste :) Agreed. But, no, I don't get disliking FIN. I can understand to a point, because I was certainly PISSED when I first watched it. I was mad at hell that they killed Xena (it was never a concern for me that she wasn't with Gab - cause I GOT the 'they will be together forever bits that must have been expressed some 20 times throughout the series), but I was pissed that Xena was dead. But then, I realized that I also hated the end of "Hercules." It wasn't an end - it's just the end of what we get to see of the journey. I wouldn't want "Xena" to have the same sort of ending. Frankly, I think pretty much every series has gotten the finale WRONG. I salute only "Xena" and "Roswell" for good, strong endings (and, also "Profiler" if you consider the leaving of Ally Walker the last ep). But, for the only series to ever COMPLETELY NAIL the finale (cause FIN also had a lot that could have been better or made more sense), though fans had to wait a YEAR for it, "Farscape" wins. What an ending! >It had some good bits in it - anyone who's carefully watched the series (as >I >think Saint Katherine of the Subtext had) can always score some points by >clever back-references to previous episodes, and it's a perfectly >legitimate >technique. Well, of course. There were some cool moments there. And Lucy getting crossed yet AGAIN, was surprisingly IMHO Lucy's best performance of it (where you would have expected that or for her to just say, "Screw it" at this point). >And I did like the way Joxer was written - very mature. Yep. But he wasn't Joxer. Ted played Barnabus. Obviously they had had him signed up for a certain numbers of eps or something - or maybe he was supposed to be Joxer and then they changed it. >And of course, Claire as always did a fine job with Alti (is it *ever* >possible to be 'over the top' >with Alti? I doubt it :) Um...yeah. Actually, yeah. Claire should NEVER yell as Alti. She loses that wicked cool creepy ALTI voice when she yells and it just DOESN'T work. "Her fallen angel." - oh, that was bad. Alti is WAY scarier without yelling. But that wasn't a script issue - that was a director issue to have her yell. Fawcett should have caught that Claire couldn't make it ALTI when she was yelling and rethought that shot. >But the subtext swamped all (for full details consult any post by KT ) *sigh* Yeah. Don't get me wrong - even though I was NOT a Xena/Gab subtexter, I still enjoyed the subtext. "Altared States," "A Day in the Life" and "Fins, Femmes & Gems" had such fun, but also, sometimes hard to spot references. Young as I was when "Fins" first aired, I must admit, I did not get the fist a fish joke until a lesbian friend of mine, KINDA explained it to me. :/ But then it was funny as hell - ALL the fish jokes. ;) Hey, I was only 17! Give me a break. So my mind wasn't warped yet. LOL! >As a contrast, for an ep where there was mucho subtext but it wasn't poured >all over everything like warm maple syrup, consider the 'Ring' trilogy. >For >example where Beowulf and Brunnhilde were so solicitous of Gabs' welfare >and >Xena was visibly discomfited. That was nicely done and amusing even to >this >non-subtexter. Agreed. And "You Are There." "Are you two...LOVERS." Michael was damned hilarious! BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #52 *************************************