From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #51 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, February 23 2005 Volume 05 : Number 051 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) [meredith Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) Hi, Ife wondered: >Um, just out of curiosity, where do we find "the entire Xenaverse"? When I used the term in that context, I was thinking of: - -- the folks at Xena Night - -- the people who wrote articles condemning FIN at Whoosh! - -- the people who left this list over FIN - -- the people who go to cons (specifically, those who give a Bronx cheer whenever the ending of FIN is mentioned and those who verbally abused TPTB over the ending of FIN) - -- the whackjobs who threatened TPTB after FIN aired >IOW, do >we only count those who publicly declared their opinions in some way? I have to -- that's the only way I know what their opinions are. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the fact that the opinions expressed over FIN have been way more negative than positive. >Seriously, I've always wondered whom we're speaking of when we talk about >"the Xenaverse" or "fans." I consider "the Xenaverse" to be anyone who's been involved in Xena fandom, since that's the experience I've had. >Specifically, who are the "six" people you're referring to? Am I one of them? The folks on this list -- which remains the *only* place online where I have seen a positive response to FIN voiced at all. (And just to be clear: I know that not everyone on chakram-refugees has a positive view of FIN, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. What I'm saying is, the only people I know of who do have a positive view of it happen to be here on the list.) =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:03:26 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena locations part 2.... (Woodhill) Last week I went back to Muriwai to try and find the Siberian Amazon camp. Walked about 6 miles through the pine forests (not in a straight line! - in fact my route plotted on the map looks more like spaghetti) - but didn't find the place I was looking for. I have to say that walking through Woodhill is very pleasant; the area I was in is an area of ancient sandhills, so there are small gullies and ridges, maybe 50 or 100 feet high, which make the terrain interesting. From the top of a ridge you can look out past the tree trunks over a few hundred yards of forest below, which gives a nice 'open' feeling to the forest, and the ridges are not so high as to make climbing them hard work. The ground between the trees is mostly free of undergrowth and there are little trails all over the forest, and the carpet of pine needles is very pleasant underfoot (specially for me since I won't wear shoes except to the office!), and the sand underneath keeps the ground dry and non-swampy. The few trails used by trailbikes and horses have been churned up into soft sand which makes the going much harder, but of course one can always walk alongside them on the pine needles. Cleared forest, on the other hand, where the tree-mass-murderers with chainsaws have been, is not so pleasant; bare bleak hillsides, covered with sharp splintered bits of branches and with all sorts of weeds and scrub growing where the tree cover has been removed. I can understand why the Amazons were so upset when Ares started wrecking their forest in 'Coming Home'. Parts of the forest last week were full of people, walking dogs, swimming in the stream, or just walking, so it appears as if pedestrian access is 'free' and doesn't need a permit. One slight disaster - when I got there I found I'd left at home, my copy of the map _and_ all my scans from Xena eps. Still, the Amazon camp from Sin Trade / Them Bones is etched on my memory, from having captured and printed them a few days ago, so I was fairly sure of being able to identify the magic spot if I found it. (Oddly, I can't find my scans _anywhere_, they've totally disappeared). So, what did I discover? Well, one delightful surprise was that, from the edge of the forest just north of Lake Okaihau ('Swan Lake'), there was a waterfall staring me in the face. Actually, it's a mile away, but it's remarkable how something moving in the landscape - such as a waterfall - screams out to be noticed. Toroanui Falls is marked on the map, but it's in the middle of private farmland but I never expected to be able to see it from that distance. There was no sign of Okiritoto Falls just above it, which is hidden by the curving valley sides in the usual way of waterfalls. Anyway, it's another waterfall to add to my collection and see if it 'fits' any of the unknown waterfalls from Xena. The 'fishing' scene from Endgame, which I could never place on Waiti Stream or the Waitakere River, I'm fairly sure is Okiritoto Stream. This would fit if the woodland scenes in that ep were filmed nearby. The site of the ambush of Pompey's troops is possibly in 'Cable Road' (which, like all the forest 'roads', is just a track), just west of where it crosses the Okiritoto Stream on a wooden bridge. (And no, I couldn't 'fit' the bridge to anything). I guess I need to go back when I've re-printed the scans and check these scenes to make sure. The one big scene I couldn't locate - and I *should* be able to do so if it's there, since it must be within a few yards of a motorable track, for logistics reasons - is the Sin Trade Amazon camp. There's the depressing possibility that since a couple of square miles of the forest nearest to Muriwai have been logged recently, that it's gone. Possibly Ares' destruction of the Amazons' forest in Coming Home was inspired by an actual event. I do hope not, since in that case locating the site would involve painful tramping over desolate wrecked hillsides, and instead of the pleasurable excitement of finding a scene that matches the scans, it would be more like a forensic investigation. Anyway, the hunt will continue.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:41:07 -0600 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) Coming out of the woodwork..... While I hated to see the series end, I always thought that TPTB could end it however they wanted to. I did like seeing Gabrielle solo on the ship. Well... actually it kinda tore me up, but I thought it did symbolize her starting out on her own. Since I'm a rather infrequent poster, am I part o a silent majority or just an infrequent poster ? Like you posted, the Xenaverse is groups of people wherever you might run into or speak to them. The *loudest* group [to me] did seem to be the FIN-haters, but that doesn't automatically make them the majority. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: meredith To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 23:19 Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) Hi, Ife wondered: >Um, just out of curiosity, where do we find "the entire Xenaverse"? When I used the term in that context, I was thinking of: -- the folks at Xena Night -- the people who wrote articles condemning FIN at Whoosh! -- the people who left this list over FIN -- the people who go to cons (specifically, those who give a Bronx cheer whenever the ending of FIN is mentioned and those who verbally abused TPTB over the ending of FIN) -- the whackjobs who threatened TPTB after FIN aired >IOW, do >we only count those who publicly declared their opinions in some way? I have to -- that's the only way I know what their opinions are. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the fact that the opinions expressed over FIN have been way more negative than positive. >Seriously, I've always wondered whom we're speaking of when we talk about >"the Xenaverse" or "fans." I consider "the Xenaverse" to be anyone who's been involved in Xena fandom, since that's the experience I've had. >Specifically, who are the "six" people you're referring to? Am I one of them? The folks on this list -- which remains the *only* place online where I have seen a positive response to FIN voiced at all. (And just to be clear: I know that not everyone on chakram-refugees has a positive view of FIN, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. What I'm saying is, the only people I know of who do have a positive view of it happen to be here on the list.) =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:57:18 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Seriously, I've always wondered whom we're speaking of when we talk about > "the Xenaverse" or "fans." Ah. "Fans" (as used on mailing lists) means "people who share my opinions". (As in, "All the fans want to see " :) "Loyal fans" means "People who are pissed off with TPTB and about to make vicious personal attacks on them". cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:52:47 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:19, meredith wrote: > >Um, just out of curiosity, where do we find "the entire Xenaverse"? > > When I used the term in that context, I was thinking of: > > -- the folks at Xena Night > -- the people who wrote articles condemning FIN at Whoosh! > -- the people who left this list over FIN > -- the people who go to cons (specifically, those who give a Bronx cheer > whenever the ending of FIN is mentioned and those who verbally abused TPTB > over the ending of FIN) > -- the whackjobs who threatened TPTB after FIN aired > > >IOW, do > >we only count those who publicly declared their opinions in some way? > > I have to -- that's the only way I know what their opinions are. > > I don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the fact that the > opinions expressed over FIN have been way more negative than positive. In number, or in intensity? Somehow, the nutters who hate something always seem to scream much louder than the fans who love something. (I hasten to add that I'm not lumping everyone who disliked FIN into the category of 'nutters' - just the lunatic fringe). Since you mention Whoosh, it's the most extreme off-the-wall articles that seem to attract attention and stick in memory. Any moderate opinions seem to get swamped in the noise. The same thing happened in Season 5, and over the Rift episodes. And the Nutforum was notorious for the vitriolic nature of the attacks on TPTB. (When will these people learn what the 'Off' switch is for?) But, since you asked for 'public expression of opinion', well, there were the substantial number (maybe a majority) who expressed their favourable opinions by voting on rate-a-Xena. And if you go back to Whoosh Issue 58, their poll in the Letters section which was called 'Group Therapy' (an invitation to negativity if ever there was one IMO!), there were 81 letters classed as 'Group Therapy', 200 'Disappointed', 50 'Cut that cord', but 193 'Surprised and Entertained'. Not all the messages quite coincided with the assigned category, by the way, there was one for example "Disappointed"... " with the brutality of Xena's death. Sorry, I just love the warrior Xena. Otherwise...well written, beautifully produced, and excellent acting performances from Lucy & Renee. Renee really shined." or one "Surprised and entertained..." "And disappointed, and very very sad that it's all over after 6 good years." Many of the letters were mixed in their reactions, not as universally one-sided as we might imagine in retrospect. Or, check out the articles in Issues 59 and 60 (if they're still up) - some of them were just screams of rage, but others are quite balanced and thoughtful in their views. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:46:11 -0800 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] UPDATE New Air Date of Lucy's Two Men Appearance UPDATE New Air Date of Lucy's Two Men Appearance I'm sure this will also delay the Extra appearance. Lucy's appearance on Two Men has been changed. Here's an update from tvguide.com LOW BLOW?: CBS must really want NBC's The Contender to fail. According to Variety, the Eye Net has decided to air original episodes of Two and a Half Men and CSI: Miami on Monday, March 7, opposite the much-hyped boxing drama's 90-minute debut. That's right, they're gonna air fresh episodes outside sweeps. In order to do this, however, CBS will go with an all-repeat lineup on Feb. 28 - the final Monday of the February sweeps. That's right, they're gonna air reruns inside sweeps. What is the world coming to?!?!?! Sharon outback@creationent.com Official Xena Fan Club ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:20:16 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] question about season 6 DVDs >Maybe, but generally DC's are _longer_ than the TV-screened ep. It was longer. 16 minutes longer. >So I think he probably cut those few seconds out after the TV version had >screened to appease some of the fans. COULD be, but a director's cut does not mean it keeps all the same shots as the aired cut. It means it's how the director cut the episode together - that's all. Yes, it is often longer, because they might have had to make cuts for either time (usually the issue with TV) or flow (usually the case with movies). But angles come into play, sometimes scenes are moved...all depends. ;) However, I do think you're all right - that Rob recut that ending. I base that on his comments in the commentary. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:26:24 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] VOTING IS LIVE! Be part of the Best Of XENA DVD Set (fwd) >The only fanfic I could ever bring myself to read were Jade's hilarious >parodies of a few years back - mind you, she was just sooo _not_ a >subtexter LOL. I don't read much myself, but I used to read EVERY Whoosh article, and, frankly, The Bitter Treat is funny as hell. We were leant a copy for the 3rd PNW XenaFest, and, subtexter or not, you'll laugh! >>Now if I only Ashera and I would get our butts in gear on our parody >>"Adventures in the Muppet >>Trade"... >That's not a parody on Farscape by any chance? No. It's a parody with the Muppets. Kermit and the gang. Hee hee. This messed up thought came to our mind when we heard Seasame Street was going to kill off Bert to stray off the "Bert and Ernie are gay" issue (I actually hear they DID kill Bert - can anyone confirm?) So, over dinner one day, shortly after Sin Trade had aired, we started picturing Ernie on a search for dead Bert. Suddenly, all we had cast muppets in the roles of the Xena characters (Cyane would be Miss Piggy, Borias would be played by Animal and the Swedish Chef would be ALTI!) and the harder we laughed, the more we got into it. Ashera and I do have plans to shoot this movie someday, but seeing as we'll have to make all the muppets ourselves, it will be some time. ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:30:39 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) >Um, just out of curiosity, where do we find "the entire Xenaverse"? In my view, the Xenaverse is the world in which those who declare themselves XENITES live. ;) There will always be various levels of fandom. Personally, I am a HARDCORE NUTBALL, elder fan from the beginning. I run a site, I got to cons, I run a mailing list, chat on lists, write fan fiction and spend too much money on Xena related things. But, that does not make me anymore a part of the Xenaverse than one who simply enjoys the show. I think that, at the core, a fan is someone who doesn't just watch a show. I think that a fan would be defined as someone who likes to DISCUSS a show, in whatever manner that may be. It could be on a mailing list, at a con, or merely with your fellow co-workers the next day. But, I do think that to be a fan, you must be involved with other fans in at least this small way. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:46:44 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) >In number, or in intensity? > >Somehow, the nutters who hate something always seem to scream much louder >than the fans >who love something. (I hasten to add that I'm not lumping >everyone who disliked FIN into the >category of 'nutters' - just the >lunatic fringe). Since you mention Whoosh, it's the most extreme > >off-the-wall articles that seem to attract attention and stick in memory. > Any moderate opinions >seem to get swamped in the noise. > >The same thing happened in Season 5, and over the Rift episodes. I have to agree, though, the same CAN be said for people who are 'nutters' (to coin your phrase) over things they like about the show so much that they drown out other fans' views (neg or postive), such as those who loved "When Fates Collide" and those who thought it was the most boring episode ever. Personally, I warn all TPTB to NEVER listen to the fans when deciding where a show should go. YOU created it, it's YOUR vision and YOUR world and YOUR characters. We started watching what YOU created. Why the hell would we want to watch that show be changed into something only the loudest voices (not necessarly the majority) want. Fans don't know what the hell we want. Look at any show with sexual tension characters. Everyone is always screaming, "Get them together, get them together!" but the moment they do, interest wanes, ratings fall, and it can often lead to death of a series. "Xena" pushed the envelope. It refused to be a certain kind of show. "Xena" was simply GREAT TV for whatever reason you watched. At least, that was my view on the first five seasons. For me, season six, despite a few good eps, was the low point of the series, because it saw TPTB lose their vision and instead slap together the wants of the loudest fanatics (yes, I use fanatics here, not fans - there is a thing as TOO far). Season five I thought was daring. Yeah, it DID have low points (die "Fishsticks" DIE!), but Rob pointed out that you have to hope for at least five (I think that was the number he said) great episodes and a few stinkers. Season five gave us "Fallen Angel," "Chakram," "Animal Attraction" (you lie if you didn't laugh), "Seeds of Faith," Lyre, Lyre," "God Fearing Child," "Amphipolis Under Siege," "Looking Death in the Eye," "Livia," "Eve" (my personal favourite episode) and "Motherhood." It brought back Ares and Aphrodite. It gave us Athena and Livia/Eve. Season six was the same thing over and over and over again. But, everyone seems to like the boring and expected, so who am I to complain? Personally, I will never understand the rage season five brought people, the same as I will not understand how people could not like FIN or why people enjoy season six. I get why people are so into "When Fates Collide" but was that SLOW and boring episode really THAT great. No, everyone just loved the over the top subtext which pretty much screamed maintext in that ep. That's not good writing - that's a cheap gimic, and not what made "Xena" great. *tsk* BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:57 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) >What I'm saying is, the only people I know of who do have a positive view >of it happen to be >here on the list.) That's not true. I'm on the PNW list too. :D Seriously though, there are a few over there too, but, as is the case, the haters and much louder. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:40:03 -0500 From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) Not sure who you are counting as the 6 fans who liked the XWP finale..... but count me in. It was a thrill ride from start to finish. In my heart of hearts I thought Gabby was going to save Xena abd though surprised at the last turn, it was a brave and logical way to go out. DOn't get me wrong, I have a ache in the pit of my stomach every time I watch it, but it was an epic beautiful story CJ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:11:49 -0800 From: Jean Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defining "the Xenaverse" (Was question about season 6 DVDs) on 2/22/05 4:40 PM, Cheryl LaScola at cjlnh@webtv.net wrote: > Not sure who you are counting as the 6 fans who liked the XWP > finale..... but count me in. It was a thrill ride from start to finish. > In my heart of hearts I thought Gabby was going to save Xena abd though > surprised at the last turn, it was a brave and logical way to go out. > DOn't get me wrong, I have a ache in the pit of my stomach every time I > watch it, but it was an epic beautiful story > CJ I'll come out of the woodwork and weigh in on this, as well. CJ, you have said much that I feel. I liked it, but it hurts. Call me a softie but I could have lived with a storybook ending of "happy forever aftering". I also know that sort of ending is not necessarily in harmony with all the different themes raised throughout the series but it is also not entirely out of bounds either. For me the story of Xena and Gabrielle exists on several plains of reality (or virtual reality) There is the TV show as presented by TPTB (Gods bless them) There is all the stories of the Xenaverse bards and their multitudes of view and then there is my own personal take on the whole thing. At any given time in any given tale the story9s "reality" can be very fluid. I hold to FIN and TPTB's ending, but I also read post-FIN fan fiction and fan fiction in which the events of FIN never happened at all. I am fine with all of it. As always, there is something for everyone in the Xenaverse. I never understood the screaming rage of the nutters that so passionately attacked Rod Tapert and company. Thankfully, those folks have either calmed down or faded away, considering Mr. T's warm welcome at the Pasadena con. I, too, have seen very positive views of FIN expressed on a variety of Xena posting boards. Yes, there is diversity in our Xenaverse. Yours in Xena- Hawk ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #51 *************************************