From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #41 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, February 15 2005 Volume 05 : Number 041 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Season 5 (was: Re: S1 [was: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies book]) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: S1 [was: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies book] ["Ja] [chakram-refugees] OT The Times UK "Women warriors from Amazon fought for Britain's Roman army" ["S. W] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel ["Xena Torres" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Season 5 (was: Re: S1 [was: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies book]) On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/12/2005 1:34:36 AM Pacific Stan (snip) > > But - maybe it's my imagination, but I > > thought the 'look' of the eps (aka 'production values') was better in S5. > > >> > > Oh, I agree. I especially liked the visuals of the Chin eps. Yes. One of my mental collection of striking images of the series, is Xena and Pao Ssu walking side by side out of the flames of the exploding ammo dump at the end of Purity, wearing those gorgeous Chinese coats. And mention of Pao Ssu reminds me.... > I liked the guest actors too. Yes again. Marie Matiko is one of my favourite guest actors, not least because she played the two sisters so well that I never realised till I read the credits, it was the same actress. Ditto Miriama Smith as Shiana in Anthony & Cleopatra - always in the background, watching, she managed to generate exactly the right air of intrigue and suspicion. Part of that is also probably down to Michael Hurst's direction. Coming back to visual effects, Motherhood always struck me as memorable - I think the contrast between the darkness and firefight in the inn, and the lightness of Olympia, is what makes it stick in my memory. Umm, I feel another thread coming on... :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:45:31 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:53, Xena Torres wrote: > I can buy that her grief made god pick Callisto, but I must also state that > there wasn't anyone else available! ;) Also, if god didn't get Xena the > hell out of there, he would have LOST! I think that motivated him more than > Callisto's tears. :D > BATTLE ON XENA! Oh, I'm quite ready to credit God with the most base and uncharitable motives, and on that score I'd go along with you. ;) However, I still think Callisto was able to make that decision on her own, with no need of God. In fact, I think it makes the story even better *if* it was entirely Callisto's doing, using the power that Xena passed on to her, because it then means that Xena's decision to save Callisto was, whether Xena intended it or not, the entire cause of X and G coming back to life. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:25:39 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snips to avoid listmistresses' wrath :) > Actually, I assumed Cally > communicated the idea and received permission, rather than the other way > around, though I don't remember any explicit suggestion of that. I guess I > just preferred that she initiated the act -- kind of a fitting payback for > Xena's sacrifice for her. Me too :) There's a sort of symmetry about it. Further, it means that both Xena and Callisto played a very large part in each others' lives... it just seems more 'fitting', to me, that Callisto, who helped engineer X & G's deaths, then brought them back to life again. As for Callisto asking permission, I'd need to watch again - she definitely asked Michael's permission later to make Xena pregnant, but I don't recall seeing her act as if she was asking permission to revive them - maybe it was there on screen and and I missed it, or maybe it's one of those things where we can 'fill in the blanks' to suit our preferences. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:56:28 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:52, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snip) > But you're right, the practical issues may have > necessitated the urgency to -- as you put it -- "get Xena the hell out of" > hell. Makes sense. I'm cracking up at the thought that Xena got > re-birthed more because of her devil side in hell, than because of the good > she could do on earth. That girl did have a way of using her dark side to > its best advantage. > > -- Ife Hmmm, that's an interesting extra factor.... very tempting to me (I *love* Xena's dark side...) Still, I think I'll stick with my interpretation, that Xena saved Callisto who then saved X&G, no other intervention necessary... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:06:49 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel (This is still in my Out box so I'll send it - apologies if it's posted already and my system screwed up) On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:42, Xena Torres wrote: > >I hadn't realised before that bringing Xena and Gabs back was entirely > >Callisto's idea, and almost >entirely Callisto's doing. > > Um....wasn't it god's idea? Callisto is watching the fight and crying, and > then a light washes over her. She wasn't an angel until god made her so. > Callisto was the obvious choice as she was the only one not engaged in > battle. Not to mention, what a cool choice for Xena's guardian angel. ;) I > think god knew then that he had to get Xena the hell out of hell if heaven > was to survive, so he sent Callisto, because he also saw the radiance of > her spirit and decided then that she would be the spirit of his messenger, > and that she might be able to earn her place in heaven this time (oops, but > then he got Livia, who was worse than Callisto. Oh dear...) Absolutely not. God aka Michael may have made Callisto an angel - no, come to think of it, he didn't even do that. XENA made Callisto an angel!! And (IMO!!!) Callisto decided for herself what to do when she saw the fight going on. You see, I just don't like God More to the point, I think the episode shows remarkably little of God's influence. Michael is in charge of defending Heaven against the demons, and he seems to be barely in control of the situation. He has certain powers, such as making Xena and Gabs angels, but he certainly can't control them thereafter. I don't see God's direct influence anywhere in the ep. Incidentally, in the DVD commentary, Eric Greundemann and R J half-frivolously discuss the question of whether, when Xena saved Callisto, she knew Callisto would revive her and Gabs - to which Eric said "of course she did!" Now admittedly they were being light-hearted about Xena's foreknowledge - but it was an unquestioned assumption that saving Callisto was entirely Xena's decision. > I never got the impression it was Callisto's idea. If it was anyone but you, I'd say 'watch it again' - but I wouldn't question your observation of any ep. I just disagree with your interpretation, there. Anyway, whoever's idea it was, it certainly wasn't Eli's > >Eli got to do the actual reviving, but he was getting his power directly > >from Callisto. I like that. (Of course I'm a Callisto fan and just > > sooo _not_ an Eli fan... :) > > Well, we know Eli had his own power (we've seen it in "The Way" and in "The > Ides of March" - side note: I wonder why they went to the effort of showing > that Eli could fix broken legs, and yet, after breaking Xena's spine, > didn't make a show of healing her legs - bringing them back to life just > heals everything? That's handy, isn't it?) Remind me, but wasn't a lot of that stuff in The Way and Ides the sort of faith-healing thing that *could* just be non-supernatural? When did Eli fix broken legs, btw? But I agree, fixing Xena's spine and assorted nail-holes in the process of bringing them back to life was uncommonly convenient. Talking of such anomalies, what about Krishna? - who managed to transform an arm-less Xena into a four-armed Kali, and then (in some unspecified way) back into the regular two-armed Xena again after she offed Indrajit. That was a bit disconcerting. > I think it was a combined effort. Neither Callisto nor Eli could have done > it on their own. Maybe so, but it seems to me that Eli usually seems to get given the credit, quite unjustly. Me, I'm biassed, I love Callisto. Incidentally, Zeus could also bring dead people back to life (e.g. Lyla in 'Outcast'), probably some of the other Olympian gods also could. And presumably so could Krishna. (happy rave about Callisto regretfully snipped :) > Callisto and her entire storyline > were certainly one of the greatest creations of Xena, second, IMHO, only to > Xena's quest to right the sins of her past. Yes, I entirely agree. I can't remember if I just said this in another thread, but IMO the arrival of Callisto moved the whole XWP series up a notch. > >The most moving moment in the whole ep, though, was when angel Xena gave > > up her 'light' to save demon Callisto. > > Oh gods! That scene just KILLS me! I LOVE that SO much. It's SO POWERFUL! That's roughly what Hudson said, too. It's also, I think, the most visually memorable image in the episode. But that's another thread I think. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:52:25 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: S1 [was: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies book] On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 02:19:50 EST, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >You know, I don't think I'll ever tire of SINS. Okay, I admit, I still >want to breeze through the Gabby parts, but as the season progresses, I >realize how much I learned about Xena from her little bits of advice, or >her looks of "what now?" or watching her watch Gabs with that wry >expression. - --Yup. ;=) LL's voice was much lower then, her expression stoic (as befits a WP), and she wasn't so touchy-feely. ;P And, we had all the gimmicks, the innovations that were dropped by the wayside later on: "I have many skills", "No, we do it _my_ way!", "Kill 'em all!", the fire-breathing, the neck pinch, the wry philosophical one-liners. These were all dropped for the "more complicated" plotlines of the later seasons that Thel likes so much. Phooey. It all boils down to, is X going to "do the right thing" or not? No matter how you dress it up in future lives and Gab's pusuit of "The Way", and "the relationship", it's still just about "what is the right thing for X to do?" (Shameless plug: see my paper up at .) >I guess I still feel the freshness, the anticipation of what was to come. >Maybe it's mostly nostalgia. I wouldn't say I prefer S1 over others, but >I can't imagine having to eliminate it. Goodness! I just realized that >if A DAY IN THE LIFE was in S1, and I could only have one season, I might >actually pick S1! Must be nostaltia. - --You go, girl!! ;=) Welcome to the "club" Thel claims doesn't exist! ;P S1 had dark: my fave ep is Reckoning. S1 had light: my fave ep is W...P. S1 had in-between: my fave ep is Beware Greeks. S1 had Autolycus: my fave ep is Royal Couple. AND nothing was old or over-done--it was all new and novel and delivered in a fresh way (I hated how X would say in later seasons when she did the neck pinch, "...and you know how the rest goes", or something to that effect--it made it sound tired and worn out). Lots more fight scenes in S1--there was more "explanation" and exposition and "setting up" in the later seasons--and there was more advancing of the character in S1, because the show was new. In later seasons, it became a tired thread that X was on the road to redemption--there was no dynamic to her struggle--she was already committed to it. Is it more interesting to watch X struggle with NOT running someone through, or to watch X struggle with hesitating before striking (i.e., in The Way)? IMO, the first is more exciting. Once you're "good", it becomes boring (like watching Matt Dillion in "Gunsmoke"). AND S1 set up all the future relationships (i.e., father-daughter, Gabs-parents, X-Cally) that we would see in later seasons. So, pour moi, it's S1 all the way. :=) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:26:49 -0600 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT The Times UK "Women warriors from Amazon fought for Britain's Roman army" Ok, the article title is pretty misleading - they weren't from the Amazon rain forest. :P The article also right away makes a leap by declaring the women warriors were Amazons. Lots of remains of women warriors in fabled Amazon territories have been found - so yeah, you could say they could've been Amazons, but unfortunately short of finding some previously unknown historical data that gives all the missing information we need to say absolutely that the Amazons existed and these are them, it's all speculation. But it's exciting nonetheless to find these women and learn the little bit that we can about their lives and their ancestry. I hope one day we do find that missing information. S.teph >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:28:34 +0000 >Subject: [Anahita-l] Women in Britain's Roman Army >To: Anahita-l@yahoogroups.com >--------------------------------------------- >Women Warriors From Amazon >Fought For Britain's Roman Army >By Lewis Smith >The Times - UK >22.12.2004 > >The remains of two Amazon warriors serving with the Roman army in >Britain have been discovered in a cemetery that has astonished >archaeologists. Women soldiers were previously unknown in the Roman >army in Britain and the find at Brougham in Cumbria will force a >reappraisal of their role in 3rd-century society. > >The women are thought to have come from the Danube region of Eastern >Europe, which was where the Ancient Greeks said the fearsome Amazon >warriors could be found. > >The women, believed to have died some time between AD220 and 300, >were burnt on pyres upon which were placed their horses and military >equipment. The remains were uncovered in the 1960s but full-scale >analysis and identification has been possible only since 2000 with >technological advances. > >The soldiers are believed to have been part of the numerii, a Roman >irregular unit, which would have been attached to a legion serving in >Britain. Other finds show that their unit originated from the >Danubian provinces of Noricum, Pannonia and Ilyria which now form >parts of Austria, Hungary and the former Yugoslavia. > >Hilary Cool, the director of Barbican Research Associates, which >specialises in post- excavation archaeological analysis, said that >the remains were the most intriguing aspects of a site that is >changing our understanding of Roman burial rites. > >"It seems highly probable that we have a unit raised in the Danubian >lands and transferred to Britain," she says in British Archaeology. > >"Though the numerii are generally referred to as irregular units, >they are not thought of as having women among their ranks. However, >the unit came from the area where the Ancient Greeks placed the >origin of women warriors called Amazons. Could the numerii be even >more irregular than anyone has ever dreamt?" > >The cemetery at Brougham served a fort and the civilian settlement of >Brocavum in the 3rd century and analysis of the remains of more than >180 people showed that everybody's ashes were buried there. >Archaeologists have been able to determine the ages and gender of the >dead and to build up a detailed picture of Roman funerals in >Brougham. > >One of the sets of women warrior's remains were found with the burnt >remnants of animals. Bone veneer, used to decorate boxes, was also >found alongside evidence of a sword scabbard and red pottery. The >possessions suggest that she was of high status and her age has been >estimated at between 20 and 40 years old. The other woman, thought to >be between 21 and 45, was buried with a silver bowl, a sword >scabbard, bone veneer and ivory. > >Copyright 2004 Times Newspapers Ltd. >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1411715,00.html ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:57:17 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fallen Angel >Absolutely not. God aka Michael may have made Callisto an angel - Michael isn't god, cr. He's an archangel. He's just the footman. Eli isn't god. He just ranks a little higher than Michael I think. Though god isn't really ever mentioned, it's him that's doing a lot of actions in the series once he's really introduced in season five. The light that washes over Callisto in the fight scene is NOT her doing. Xena did NOT make Callisto an angel. Xena put Callisto in heaven. You have to EARN the right be to an angel (Xena and Gab weren't angels at first). Callisto earned it by her weeping, her concern, her wish to do something to stop the fighting, and so god made her a guardian angel. She didn't have to face a test, which is why she isn's an arch angel. But also, the arch angels in the series seem to be the fighters, who actually come running in with swords to take action, while the guardian angels are guides - as Callisto becomes to Eli in FA, and then to Xena in SoF. >And (IMO!!!) Callisto decided for herself what to do when she saw the >fight going on. Dude, she didn't have no power! She had no wings = not angel. Xena gave her light to send Callisto to heaven. She wins a free pass in, but the wings still have to be earned. Even Gabrielle had to earn her wings. >You see, I just don't like God LOL! Well...I'm with you there, and I hated the introduction of him into the series. Pissed me off it did. I like mythology - it was one of the main reasons I started watching Xena (besides Lucy herself), and I didn't like the departure away from the Greek gods (as cool as that was). Thankfully they did bring in the Norse gods for a bit in season six, and thus not completely dropping mythology. Still think they should have brought in the Egyptian gods for a few eps... The whole christianity arch irked me. :P I did like how Eve became the messenger of Eli (Jesus, obviously) after she had been the Bitch of Rome, cause it was such an interesting 180, but I think I would have liked Eli more if he wasn't a play on Jesus and was a little more their own creation. Like, how Najara was a play on Joan of Arc in "Crusader" (she lost that in "The Convert" - too bad). I will never buy that she took Xena in a fight, but I liked the interesting angle on Joan of Arc, without making her Joan of Arc (cause, hey, she sure as hell weren't born yet!) Najara was bad: Joan wasn't. Very cool switch. Eli wasn't anywhere near as creative. >More to the point, I think the episode shows remarkably little of God's >influence. Michael is in >charge of defending Heaven against the demons, >and he seems to be barely in control of the >situation. He has certain >powers, such as making Xena and Gabs angels, but he certainly can't > >control them thereafter. I don't see God's direct influence anywhere in >the ep. And? The devil didn't have direct influence either. Isn't that the point? People decide for themselves. Michael didn't lose control over Xena or Gab. He got Xena focused and made her listen. He warned Xena she might be moved in hell, because he likely has experienced the same thing. But he warned in her regard to Gabrielle, and made sure Gab got out so Xena couldn't rescue her by giving her her light. He had no idea that Xena would give it up for Callisto. Hell, did any of us? lol >Incidentally, in the DVD commentary, Eric Greundemann and R J >half-frivolously discuss the >question of whether, when Xena saved >Callisto, she knew Callisto would revive her and Gabs - to >which Eric said >"of course she did!" Now admittedly they were being light-hearted about >Xena's >foreknowledge - but it was an unquestioned assumption that saving >Callisto was entirely Xena's >decision. Frankly: From interviews I've seen with RJ he gives Xena WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO MUCH credit. I'm sorry, she's human. She can know human nature and know those in her life perfectly, but that doesn't mean she can predict the outcome always. And if Xena saved Callisto to save herself that ruins the power of the gesture. The point was Xena took Callisto's place - took on her suffering in hell, because she knew she was the cause. She has always sought redemption, and seems to only know how to find it by sacrificing herself (see "Sins of the Past," "The Reckoning," "Locked Up and Tied Down" and "FIN"). This scene loses all power if she did it for her own gain. No, she had NO IDEA. How the hell could she guess that? I mean, JEEZ! >If it was anyone but you, I'd say 'watch it again' - but I wouldn't >question your observation of any >ep. ROTFLMAO! Yeah, you can't challenge me. Bwhahahahaha! Plus, FA is my second fav ep of all time, so I've watched it an INSANE amount of times. Although, oddly, my third fav ep "The Bitter Suite" is the only ep I can quote pretty much entirely by heart. Course, with all those songs, there's less to remember - and the soundtrack helps. ;) >I just disagree with your interpretation, there. It would be boring if we agreed. In fact, we rarely do! Makes for good discussion. I miss it. ;) >Anyway, whoever's idea it was, it certainly wasn't >Eli's I agree competely. >Remind me, but wasn't a lot of that stuff in The Way and Ides the sort of >faith-healing thing that *could* just be non-supernatural? When did Eli >fix >broken legs, btw? LOL! Check out "The Ides of March" when Gab and Amarice first team up with him. Act one. Granted, his legs might not have been broken, but the guy couldn't walk. He was brought to Eli on a stretcher and walked away after Eli healed him. >But I agree, fixing Xena's spine and assorted nail-holes in the process of >bringing them back to life >was uncommonly convenient. Yeah. :P >Talking of such anomalies, what about Krishna? - who managed to transform >an arm-less Xena into >a four-armed Kali, and then (in some unspecified >way) back into the regular two-armed Xena again >after she offed Indrajit. > That was a bit disconcerting. LOL. Yeah, but that was the head god taking that action. You don't think Zeus could do that? Sure he could. But the reviving was Eli and an angel. ;) >Maybe so, but it seems to me that Eli usually seems to get given the >credit, >quite unjustly. Me, I'm biassed, I love Callisto. LOL! I say they BOTH did it. Neither on their own. >Incidentally, Zeus could also bring dead people back to life (e.g. Lyla in >'Outcast'), probably some of the other Olympian gods also could. And >presumably so could Krishna. Exactly. >(happy rave about Callisto regretfully snipped :) LOL >Yes, I entirely agree. I can't remember if I just said this in another >thread, but IMO the arrival of Callisto moved the whole XWP series up a >notch. VERY! >That's roughly what Hudson said, too. LOL! >It's also, I think, the most visually memorable image in the episode. Oh yeah! BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:53:29 -0500 From: "bookdaft" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Telly alert-- Lucy on PBS Varies is right. I found the station which produced it and the station airing it, but it doesn't appear to be nation-wide at this time. One of the local PBS stations to me did not turn the show up in a search of its TV schedule. I guess it is something to keep an eye out for. bd - -----Original Message----- From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of HJJH Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:23 PM To: X Chakram Subject: [chakram-refugees] Telly alert-- Lucy on PBS Watch your local PBS for 3Heartbeat to Heartbeat: Women and Heart Disease2-- Lucy is interviewed! It9s showing here in Austin less than 24 hrs. from now, but PBS scheduling varies from one station to another, so it could be any day, any time, elsewhere... if at all. TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #41 *************************************