From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #27 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, February 1 2005 Volume 05 : Number 027 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The end of Season Four... [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:22:54 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/2005 11:20:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Yes, and admittedly seasons are more variable than episodes, but it's > > still > > relatively easy for most of us to decide if, on the whole, we really like > > a particular season or aren't so bothered about it. >> > > Okay, I'll have to take your word for you and most other fans. We could take a vote but I think it's the normal human condition to have favourites in any field. > > >Even with the eps, though, I have problems rating > > > > > >"favorites." While I love the DEBT, SIN TRADE and many S3&4 dark eps, I > > >find myself watching some of the comedies over and over -- from all the > > >seasons. So, there's eps that are favorites in every respect, but I > > > don't watch that much, and eps that are favorites in terms of how often > > > I view them, but which I don't necessarily think are that great in > > > overall quality. I don't feel like hurting my brain ("normal" or not) > > > trying to split hairs on which eps are "more" or "most" favorite. > > > > That seems odd. I have no trouble in deciding which are my favourite > > eps and they're the ones I'll wear out the tapes on. Other than a fear > > of over-familiarity, I just can't understand why you would choose to > > watch a not-too-great ep more than a favourite ep. >> > > That's my point about "playing favorites." I've watched FINS, FEMMES far > more times than IDES, even though I'd rate the latter higher on all sorts > of dimensions. One is a favorite in terms of viewing, while the other is > one I'd have to include on some list of "Top 10 Favorite Eps." Could be > the mood I'm in when I tend to pop an ep in the DVD player. Could be... I just find that very unusual. I know I like to be in the right mood to watch Sin Trade or Ides or FIN - I wouldn't want to 'waste' the ep just to fill in time - but then, if I'm just going to fill in time, I'm as likely to do something else other than watching Xena anyway. So on the whole, my favourite eps do get viewed most. (snip) > > > You know what? Looking over the list of S1, I can't see one ep that > > rates higher than 'fairly good' on my personal scale. >> > > Okay, so that probably explains why you don't watch S1. > > -- Ife Or, don't watch S1 very frequently. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:10:55 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/2005 11:20:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > >Um, so she didn't change her mind about leaving Gabs and thinking Najara > > >would be an okay stand-in? > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > Your post made it sound like a whim, without much justification. > > Whereas Xena changed her mind for compelling reasons based on new > > information. > > To me, "change mind" simply means "decided to do something different," with > many possible perspectives about how "reasonable" or "right" that was under > the circumstances. I didn't feel a need to justify her decision. People > usually think they have "compelling" reasons for doing something different. > Xena's reasons were, to me, no more or less significant than anybody > else's -- certainly not from Najara's perspective. Najara didn't care why > Xena changed her mind. My point was that both women reacted as many people > would who had agreed about something important to them and felt the other > was renigging on an agreement because of different interpretations of the > terms. > > -- Ife Well, maybe your message read with a different emphasis from what you intended when you wrote it - this is very common in messages. To me, reading it, there was a definite implication that Xena's change of mind was frivolous or arbitrary, which presumably you didn't intend. Xena's reasons were, IMO, very cogent - she had just found out Najara's little habit of killing people who disagreed with her (or who failed to within three days).... now Gabs, when she found this out, would be sure to react strongly, and the odds were, Najara would see this as a betrayal and react accordingly with possibly fatal consequences for Gabs. That's what I think, anyway. (I wrote the above just before I happened to re-watch the ep. I respectfully suggest you re-watch that sequence too - and the expression on Gabs' face. Xena didn't arbitrarily decide to pull Gabs out of there. Xena walked in and challenged Najara with executing people and Najara implicitly admitted it - *and* Gabby was obviously turned off by this. When Xena said 'Come on, Gabrielle' Gabby was moving to go with her before Najara stopped her. It was Najara who was the first to draw her sword and turn it into a fight. It wasn't, as I think you suggested in a previous post, Xena who started the fight. Another thing - Najara attacking Xena from behind only gave her a temporary advantage, Xena recovered enough to throw a chair at Najara and get her momentarily on the defensive - I submit that's all the opportunity the *real* Xena would need to take charge and finish Najara off. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:38:12 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The end of Season Four... On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/28/2005 10:59:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Anyway, the occurrences I've got were: > > Sin Trade 2 - Alti fight - vision in two stages > > Crusader - in the stables > > Past Imperfect - Starts with the Vision - Gabs V.O. 'Are you sure I was > > dying?' > > Past Imperfect - at the dam, Xena sees 'claw mountain' - very brief > > Paradise Found - in the cave > > Paradise Found - Xena giving Gabs a massage - four brief scenes, overhead > > shots not seen before, I think > > Between The Lines - Alti tormenting Gabs - four brief scenes - this is > > different in that Gabs is the one seeing it, not Xena > > Ides of March - Xena talking to Brutus > > (And of course there's the 'real thing' later in the ep) > > > > That's eight occurrences. Can anyone point to any I've missed? > > I'm not sure what I'm thinking would qualify, as I think you're referring > to times we knew Xena saw the vision or was describing it to Gabs. Well, by 'The Vision', I'm referring specifically to the crucifixion sequence, not to any other flashbacks or foreshadowings that Alti showed Xena. Maybe I'm being arbitrary about that, but it's convenient. (It's also very easy to pick out of a DVD on fast forward, the blue tint makes it stand out :) > But > there were a couple of times the audience saw parts of the vision and it > wasn't clear whether Xena was similarly aware. Two times stand out to me > -- in CRUSADER, when Xena's being beaten by Najara, Umm, do you mean that part of what Alti showed Xena in Sin Trade was, Xena getting beaten by Najara? That's something different from what I meant. No part of the crucifixion vision happened during the fight in Crusader, and in fact I don't think Xena saw any visions during that fight. > and in GOOD DAY, when > she's standing in front of the burning homes she's told folks they must set > on fire. Both of those were scenes Alti had shown her. There might also > be a scene later in GOOD DAY, when Xena's standing in the middle of battle, > looking for Gabs. I couldn't help wondering if Xena was thinking, "If > these moments are happening, what's to stop to the one I fear most from > coming true?" Umm, I think you're referring to actual 'real' events here, which Alti had shown to Xena in the Sin Trade fight. That's not really what I was referring to. (In Between The Lines, Alti 'hit' Xena with a number of painful flashbacks, including IIRC part of that same Crusader fight which was by then a flashback rather than a prediction - it's the same weapon she used on Xena in the Sin Trade 1 Berserker fight and the Sin Trade 2 flying fight where she led up to the Vision - but, in BTL, Xena didn't actually see the Vision, Gabrielle did.) > For me, much of the brilliance of S4 was the way the vision was used. > Without referring to it visually more than the times you mention above, we > were still, like Xena, aware of it hanging like a sword over everything. > But whereas the vision was in Xena's mind, we got to see parts of it > playing out in a way Xena didn't -- observing her, while she could only > observe what was happening. Was she conscious of the scenes that duplicated > the vision? Did she dismiss them from her mind, except for the > crucifixion? Well, as I said, I use 'The Vision' as shorthand to refer to the crucifixion scenes exclusively, excluding the flashbacks and the other foreshadowings - for the simple reason that they were given only cursory treatment, they didn't (apparently) dwell on Xena's mind, nor were they repeated numerous times. I jst don't think they rated with Xena, compared with the crucifixion. So far as the various instances of The Vision go, and while compiling them, it's become obvious to me that each instance was very carefully tilored to suit the surrounding episode. > Of course, an unanswered aspect of the vision is that we don't know what > role the secondary aspects of the vision were supposed to play, in terms of > Xena's awareness. E.g., she gets a quick view of Najara's outfit in the > vision and of that mystery woman defeating her. Yes, Xena studies Najara > with particular interest, when Najara comes riding up and knocks Xena down. > But that could be because Xena was surprised by this strange and unusually > skillful woman warrior. Alti also uses the vision to suggest that the > burning village may somehow lead to problems for Xena. Xena stands amidst > the burning village with a strangely contemplative expression, but that > could be explained by her sorrow that such destruction was necessary to > keeping resources out of the hands of the enemies. Yes, that 'A Good Day' scene was not actually one that was bad for Xena - painful, but she was doing the right thing - it was not something that she should have on her conscience. I find its inclusion by Alti rather odd. > Now, it could simply be that TPTB believed it too cumbersome to make > references to every aspect of the vision or to show Xena as obviously > conscious when a prediction came true. ("Let's put it out there and let the > fans worry about it, like usual.") It could be they wanted to suggest that > Xena didn't pay much attention to foretold threats that didn't involve > Gabs, certainly not enough to make her worried about Najara or joining in > the fight against the Romans. We never hear her talk about other scenes in > the vision. Whatever, it puts the viewer in the unique position of seeing > the vision unfold and not being sure the extent to which Xena viewed them > as "proof" of the crucifixion's inevitability. > > -- Ife I think the other scenes were just 'padding', actually, and any number of random fight scenes could have been substituted. I suspect TPTB just used what they happened to already have available from shooting other episodes. After all, if Alti had *really* wanted to shock Xena, what about her armless condition in 'The Way'? What about Xena, tied up and with rats all over her in Locked Up and Tied Down? Come to that, what about Xena lying there helpless with her throat cut in Between The Lines? I guess those eps just weren't 'in the can' at the time. (Mention of BTL brings up an interesting point, of course, in that the damage there was done to Xena by Alti herself, so a foreshadowing to that fight would have been ironical. But then, Alti obviously couldn't see her own future or she would have known the outcome of that fight. Come to that, she would have known the outcome of the Sin Trade flying fight - or as Xena said after it, "Now you know your future" (love the quietly satisfied way Lucy delivered that line!). Alti's vision was evidently rather 'patchy'. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #27 *************************************