From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #26 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, January 30 2005 Volume 05 : Number 026 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] The end of Season Four... [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] The end of Season Four... [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... [IfeRa] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:03:16 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] The end of Season Four... Well, I've just watched my way through the Season 4 DVD's and got up to Endgame and Ides of March, and what a relief it is to be watching top-notch enjoyable episodes again!! Like the end of a drought. (In case anyone missed it, I'm no fan of Gabrielle's 'Way' or Xena's dithering, or in fact anything much after the end of Sin Trades.... :) Viewing them back-to-back (and in fact I've always regarded Endgame/Ides as a sort of two-part ep), I'm not sure which I like best. These are IMO (!!): Things in Endgame's favour: It has more of Amarice and her refreshing scepticism in it Eli isn't in it There's much less subtext in it (than Ides) ;) Things in Ides's favour: Callisto! That amazing crucifixion scene Callisto! (she's worth repeating) On the whole, I think Callisto carries the day - Ides gets my vote (but only by a narrow margin) I know why I took an instant liking to Amarice - she said the same things about Gabrielle's Way of Peace that I'd been saying in exasperation for most of the season. And the irony of a pacifist in charge of a warrior tribe was just crying out for someone to comment. Back in Season One, Xena would've said them, but in Season Four her guilt complex over the Vision seemed to have turned her sceptical streak to mush. The first few times I viewed Endgame, I failed to appreciate the tactics of Xena returning Brutus to his army, or why (other than returning a favour) he would divert them from attacking the Amazons. But it eventually became clear to me - Pompey was approaching the Amazons from one side, Caesar's troops from the other, presumably with the intention of wading into the battle after the Amazons and Pompey had worn each other down. But it made all sorts of sense (including self-interest) for Brutus to attack Pompey from the side as soon as Pompey engaged the Amazons, it made Pompey's army fight on two fronts and avoided possible skirmishing between Brutus' men and the Amazons. And as soon as Xena had killed Pompey, it made further efforts o Brutus' part unnecessary. Ides - Callisto is sooo good! That crucifixion, incidentally, is missing the one shot from the Vision that really makes me sit up and take notice - it's in one of the instances that appeared in various eps in Season 4 (and each version was slightly different, refelecting the circumstances of the occasion - very subtle that) - any way I can't remember which ep, but IIRC Xena is saying "Gabrielle, you're the best thing in my life" and just as she finishes saying it, someone slaps down a piece of wood on her hand in the foreground and places a huge great nail on it. Score that one 10/10 for shock value. Actually, it's in Sin Trade. X (on cross): Gabrielle, you're the best thing in my life. G (on cross): I love you, Xena (cut back to Xena, then the wood and nail in the foreground - top marks to the focus puller, they're perfectly in focus.) I used to have a tape compilation of all the instances of The vision, but I can't find it (actually I think I missed on, the brief occurrence in the cave at the start of Paradise Found). So I just compiled another tape of them. If anyone's remotely interested I'll describe how they differed to suit the episodes they were in. ;) One thing I noticed - the initial scene of the Roman soldiers moving around, passing the hammer etc, were filmed in slow motion. Helped to give it a placid, dreamlike quality (as did the music). Anyway, the occurrences I've got were: Sin Trade 2 - Alti fight - vision in two stages Crusader - in the stables Past Imperfect - Starts with the Vision - Gabs V.O. 'Are you sure I was dying?' Past Imperfect - at the dam, Xena sees 'claw mountain' - very brief Paradise Found - in the cave Paradise Found - Xena giving Gabs a massage - four brief scenes, overhead shots not seen before, I think Between The Lines - Alti tormenting Gabs - four brief scenes - this is different in that Gabs is the one seeing it, not Xena Ides of March - Xena talking to Brutus (And of course there's the 'real thing' later in the ep) That's eight occurrences. Can anyone point to any I've missed? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:43:22 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators In a message dated 1/27/2005 11:20:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >Um, so she didn't change her mind about leaving Gabs and thinking Najara > >would be an okay stand-in? > > > >-- Ife > > Your post made it sound like a whim, without much justification. Whereas > Xena changed her mind for compelling reasons based on new information. > To me, "change mind" simply means "decided to do something different," with many possible perspectives about how "reasonable" or "right" that was under the circumstances. I didn't feel a need to justify her decision. People usually think they have "compelling" reasons for doing something different. Xena's reasons were, to me, no more or less significant than anybody else's -- certainly not from Najara's perspective. Najara didn't care why Xena changed her mind. My point was that both women reacted as many people would who had agreed about something important to them and felt the other was renigging on an agreement because of different interpretations of the terms. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:43:20 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The end of Season Four... In a message dated 1/28/2005 10:59:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Anyway, the occurrences I've got were: > Sin Trade 2 - Alti fight - vision in two stages > Crusader - in the stables > Past Imperfect - Starts with the Vision - Gabs V.O. 'Are you sure I was > dying?' > Past Imperfect - at the dam, Xena sees 'claw mountain' - very brief > Paradise Found - in the cave > Paradise Found - Xena giving Gabs a massage - four brief scenes, overhead > shots not seen before, I think > Between The Lines - Alti tormenting Gabs - four brief scenes - this is > different in that Gabs is the one seeing it, not Xena > Ides of March - Xena talking to Brutus > (And of course there's the 'real thing' later in the ep) > > That's eight occurrences. Can anyone point to any I've missed? > I'm not sure what I'm thinking would qualify, as I think you're referring to times we knew Xena saw the vision or was describing it to Gabs. But there were a couple of times the audience saw parts of the vision and it wasn't clear whether Xena was similarly aware. Two times stand out to me -- in CRUSADER, when Xena's being beaten by Najara, and in GOOD DAY, when she's standing in front of the burning homes she's told folks they must set on fire. Both of those were scenes Alti had shown her. There might also be a scene later in GOOD DAY, when Xena's standing in the middle of battle, looking for Gabs. I couldn't help wondering if Xena was thinking, "If these moments are happening, what's to stop to the one I fear most from coming true?" For me, much of the brilliance of S4 was the way the vision was used. Without referring to it visually more than the times you mention above, we were still, like Xena, aware of it hanging like a sword over everything. But whereas the vision was in Xena's mind, we got to see parts of it playing out in a way Xena didn't -- observing her, while she could only observe what was happening. Was she conscious of the scenes that duplicated the vision? Did she dismiss them from her mind, except for the crucifixion? Of course, an unanswered aspect of the vision is that we don't know what role the secondary aspects of the vision were supposed to play, in terms of Xena's awareness. E.g., she gets a quick view of Najara's outfit in the vision and of that mystery woman defeating her. Yes, Xena studies Najara with particular interest, when Najara comes riding up and knocks Xena down. But that could be because Xena was surprised by this strange and unusually skillful woman warrior. Alti also uses the vision to suggest that the burning village may somehow lead to problems for Xena. Xena stands amidst the burning village with a strangely contemplative expression, but that could be explained by her sorrow that such destruction was necessary to keeping resources out of the hands of the enemies. Now, it could simply be that TPTB believed it too cumbersome to make references to every aspect of the vision or to show Xena as obviously conscious when a prediction came true. ("Let's put it out there and let the fans worry about it, like usual.") It could be they wanted to suggest that Xena didn't pay much attention to foretold threats that didn't involve Gabs, certainly not enough to make her worried about Najara or joining in the fight against the Romans. We never hear her talk about other scenes in the vision. Whatever, it puts the viewer in the unique position of seeing the vision unfold and not being sure the extent to which Xena viewed them as "proof" of the crucifixion's inevitability. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:43:23 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... In a message dated 1/27/2005 11:20:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Yes, and admittedly seasons are more variable than episodes, but it's still > > relatively easy for most of us to decide if, on the whole, we really like a > particular season or aren't so bothered about it. >> Okay, I'll have to take your word for you and most other fans. > >Even with the eps, though, I have problems rating > >"favorites." While I love the DEBT, SIN TRADE and many S3&4 dark eps, I > >find myself watching some of the comedies over and over -- from all the > >seasons. So, there's eps that are favorites in every respect, but I don't > >watch that much, and eps that are favorites in terms of how often I view > >them, but which I don't necessarily think are that great in overall > >quality. I don't feel like hurting my brain ("normal" or not) trying to > >split hairs on which eps are "more" or "most" favorite. > > That seems odd. I have no trouble in deciding which are my favourite eps > and they're the ones I'll wear out the tapes on. Other than a fear of > over-familiarity, I just can't understand why you would choose to watch a > not-too-great ep more than a favourite ep. >> That's my point about "playing favorites." I've watched FINS, FEMMES far more times than IDES, even though I'd rate the latter higher on all sorts of dimensions. One is a favorite in terms of viewing, while the other is one I'd have to include on some list of "Top 10 Favorite Eps." Could be the mood I'm in when I tend to pop an ep in the DVD player. > > Now I wonder if it's > >because they're so "simple" compared to later seasons. As you know, I love > >noodling the philosophical questions. When the show was airing, I'd sit > >down in anticipation of something provocative that we might hash out for > >weeks. > > Ah, but then I don't particularly care for 'simple' in itself. I like dark > > ;) >> Again, me too. My "Top 10" list would be dominated by dark eps. But I've thought about and discussed those eps countless times to satisfy myself about what I love in them. In hindsight, I'm enjoying aspect I hadn't appreciated before in the lighter eps (as long as Xena's in them). > > You know what? Looking over the list of S1, I can't see one ep that rates > higher than 'fairly good' on my personal scale. >> Okay, so that probably explains why you don't watch S1. -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #26 *************************************