From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #21 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, January 25 2005 Volume 05 : Number 021 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Morris/Najara [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Morris/Najara [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:01:57 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:27:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Yes, but would you rate S1 *higher* than S2 (as the reviewer stated?) > That > was my point, that I doubt if you'd find *any* group of fans who would rate > S1 as the best season (though you could find a group who rate S2 as best, > I > think). > Oh, sorry, I wasn't even getting into the ratings aspect. I think the whole concept of such a thing is ridiculous. To me, each season had different goals, opportunities and challenges, so I have some different standards for each. For those nostalgic for the fresh "bloom" of the series, I can see where they might rate S1 higher than *any* season. Who knows what reviewers take into consideration or where they go to get fan reactions. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:01:59 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:27:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >Thing is, > >she would never have gotten the upper hand, if not for Xena's conflicted > >state at the time. She was worried about the vision, about getting Gabs > >killed. She put her initial doubts about Najara aside and saw who she > >wanted to see -- someone with ideals Gab needed and the physical ability to > >protect her. > > Yes I know that, and I still can't credit it and I wouldn't like it if I > did. > This is Xena, Warrior Princess, Destroyer of Nations, not some amateur. >> Ah. I liked my WP's humanity -- her flaws, mistakes, ignorance, etc. Made her triumphs more meaningful to me than if she'd been a robot. Plus, I'm not sure she'd come across anyone quite like Najara before. Like Gabs, Xena didn't seem to know quite what to make of Najara. I didn't get the impression this was because Xena was distracted by the vision, even though that later made her drop her defenses when normally she might have kept them up. > > >Xena turns her back on Najara and decides she's won in a fair fight and > >that no one needs to die. > Hang on - Najara had already shown what a freako she was by attacking Xena > in > the first place. That seems above-board enough to me. Why would Xena > suddenly decide Najara could be trusted enough to turn her back on her? > Don't like it at all. > I attributed to a combination of things -- Xena's disgust with herself for letting down her guard in the first place, then letting her guard again by giving Najara more credit than she deserved in the honor department, and underestimating the ferocity of Najara's zealotry. Plus, I think that was Xena's way of saying the fight was over and didn't have to be to the death (perhaps partly in deference to Gabs). I didn't see anything particularly freakish in Najara's first attack. She felt she was a better person/fighter (especially for Gabrielle). She had a different opinion about how to deal with bad guys than Xena. She told her men to stay out of the fray. Basically, she seemed intent on a fair fight -- winner getting Gabs. I didn't see anything in her previous behavior that equaled the "bat out of hell" she became after Xena'd knocked her into the wall. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:02:01 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:27:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >To your second point about the special effects, that's what I also like > >most about the Xena/Najara fights. They were so *personal* in terms of > >Xena's being played for a fool and Najara believing she was better than > >Xena, particularly as Gabrielle's guardian. Xena's semi-crazy behavior at > >the end wasn't just an act. She wanted to knock Najara into that pit with > >a personal satisfaction (and vengeance) she didn't exhibit when she let > >Cally die or killed Alti. > > Well, yes, I liked that bit >> Exactly. This was one of the few times I can remember Xena's pride being such a factor, rather than her honor, sense of justice, or anger over someone else being hurt. That's precisely because she let Najara play her like the "amateur" you mention above. Xena didn't like it anymore than you do, but we wouldn't have gotten those great exchanges with Najara otherwise. I cracked up when Xena admitted part of her desire to take on Najara again was because she'd gotten beaten the first time. And how many times did she show such glee in hurting someone, like when she tossed that stone in the pit and said, "Oooo, that's gotta hurt," picturing Najara taking that tumble? Or the sarcasm, taunting and "I'm a little nuts" behavior? You're right -- not typical Xena, because she didn't take things personally or let them get to her personally. Sure, some of it was part of an act to defeat Najara, but Xena was perfectly willing to "let it all hang out" in this situation. It was "raw" Reformed Xena like we seldom got to see, and it was because she let a puny, sweet-talking wacko make a fool of her and beat the stuffing out of her for good measure. I could hear her thinking, "*Nobody* does that to the WP and gets away with it." Heh. > > >Except for the "blood" and bruises Xena and > >Najara had on them, the physical and emotional toll was projected in their > >absolute disdain for each other, communicated in every expression and move. > > I give the actors a lot more credit for those kinds of fights, than when a > >lot of special effects are involved. > > > >-- Ife > > Umm, special effects - what about the gravity-defying rolling up the vines > in > the last fight in The Convert?>> No, I mainly meant CRUSADER. Although they had some pretty good exchanges in CONVERT before the fight. > Ultimately, getting right down to it, I guess I just don't think a flako > like > Najara was any more worthy of Xena's attention than Milo was, and therefore > I > take no pleasure in seeing her defeated in such a manner, whether by > trickery > or not. >> No doubt many considered Hitler a "flako" too -- even well after they should've taken him more seriously -- and done something about him. In fact, quite a few folks who do great damage look like they couldn't hurt a flea. They get past everybody's radar for too long precisely because nobody thinks they're worth attention. Many of the warlords, corrupt officials, etc. Xena fought weren't "worthy" opponents phsycially or in mentally. They were worth her attention because of the harm they did or could do. Mylo was about to cause a war between two groups of people. Najara went around killing people who didn't see her "light." I loved Xena's practicality, that she didn't waste time worrying about her image or be dismissive of "minor" people or events that could do harm. Xena saw a "mess" -- big or small -- and cleaned it up, while everybody else walked by because it was beneath them, or "not my responsibility," or not worth getting their hands dirty. She was more of a hero -- above average -- to me because of that, rather than if she only fought opponents "worthy" of her reputation. That's what made her "the people's" hero, in terms of their trusting that she would help them without using some chart that outlined which causes had enough stature to deserve her attention. In fact I don't believe Xena, however distracted, would have let > Najara > get the drop on her like that. (Maybe one reason why I don't like > most of Season 4 that much - Xena Warrior Doofus. > Well, we've beat that horse before. I think our comments here are a pretty good indication of why we differ about that. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:22:38 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:35, Xena Torres wrote: > >Well, Farscape has the titles on the screen > > Then I am blind. ;) Check it out, the titles are (as I said) really cool. > >Yes to Herc. Did Bellerophon beat Xena or did she deliberately let him - > >IIRC it wasn't much of a fight, anyway. > > He did. Act one when she came to rescue Varia. He won, she ran (er, jumped > out a window). The fourth act, she LET him win, yes, but he did beat her > once. OK, I stand corrected. Not one of the more memorable eps, for me. > >And you don't think it makes her look fatter? Or you don't think it > >matters? > > You know what? The original kinda did, but once she got the seperate piece > one in season five that didn't bunch, then no. > BATTLE ON XENA! Ah, I hadn't realised they'd changed it. I must watch more carefully. Another reason to like Season 5, no? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:27:36 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Morris/Najara On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:33, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > To those I would *have* to add, Nebula. I know she was on Herc, but > > I haven't seen her in such a delicious role in anything else. > > Heck, I loved the few minutes Torres played Cleo in XWP. I didn't watch > Herc regularly, but I was generally impressed with the solid roles women > got in that show as well -- like Morrigan (?). Yes. I was going to mention Morrigan, but I haven't seen Tamara Gorski in anything else so (unlike Gina) I didn't have anything to compare her character with. Certainly, once one got over the phony-Irish accent (which I found distracting), she was a very satisfying character. And I loved watching her and Nebula as uneasy allies in 'Let There be Light' and 'Redemption'. > Tapert & Co. really knew > how to let actors shine in terms of what they brought to a character, as > opposed to expecting them to stay in boxes. I loved that the women got to > exude sexuality as well as strength. Take Torres in XWP. Her byplay with > Autolycus was as equals, not the "I must pretend I'm an idiot and > manipulate you so that I get what I want but still make you look good/in > charge" kind of stuff "the suits" seem obsessed with. > > Women guest stars in Herc/Xena got to be well rounded, play nuances, give > little quirks to the character that I think helped make them memorable. I agree. One of the things that makes many eps of 'Herc' watchable for me, is the strength of the secondary characters, more often women than men, I think. They usually weren't up to defeating the villains on their own (that was Herc and Iolaus's job, after all) but they were frequently resourceful and almost never helpless victims. Probably my favourite one-off character in Herc was Lydia in 'Pride Comes Before a Brawl' (played by Lisa Chappell) who set off through satyr-infested woods to seek Hercules' help, by herself because nobody else would go along, and 'somebody had to do it'. And as always she had some nice lines - Iolaus: "Trust me" Lydia: "That's what all the boys say!" > Amarice didn't do that much for me, but I do think Skye did a great job > with what she was given. She had a great start, I thought, but then was under-used. Still, she had some great lines too - "Move and you die, Roman!" Joxer: "I'm not a Roman" A: "Yeah, I guess you're not". Just the way she said that summed up poor ol' Joxer perfectly. > The list could go on, with Alison Bruce and Wall, > Joelson, Paris Jefferson, Alex Tydings. I'd take any on of those > performances over the usual one-dimensional stuff. Yep, XWP spoiled me > forever. > > -- Ife OK, me too. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:52:57 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >Thing is, > > >she would never have gotten the upper hand, if not for Xena's conflicted > > >state at the time. She was worried about the vision, about getting Gabs > > >killed. She put her initial doubts about Najara aside and saw who she > > >wanted to see -- someone with ideals Gab needed and the physical ability > > > to protect her. > > > > Yes I know that, and I still can't credit it and I wouldn't like it if I > > did. > > This is Xena, Warrior Princess, Destroyer of Nations, not some amateur. > > >> > > Ah. I liked my WP's humanity -- her flaws, mistakes, ignorance, etc. Made > her triumphs more meaningful to me than if she'd been a robot. Now that's absurd. NOT a robot, an experienced warrior who's been around the block... turning her back on an opponent in a fight is the sort of mistake she would not make. > Plus, I'm > not sure she'd come across anyone quite like Najara before. Like Gabs, > Xena didn't seem to know quite what to make of Najara. I didn't get the > impression this was because Xena was distracted by the vision, even though > that later made her drop her defenses when normally she might have kept > them up. > > > >Xena turns her back on Najara and decides she's won in a fair fight and > > >that no one needs to die. > > > > Hang on - Najara had already shown what a freako she was by attacking > > Xena in > > the first place. That seems above-board enough to me. Why would Xena > > suddenly decide Najara could be trusted enough to turn her back on her? > > Don't like it at all. > > I attributed to a combination of things -- Xena's disgust with herself for > letting down her guard in the first place, then letting her guard again by > giving Najara more credit than she deserved in the honor department, and > underestimating the ferocity of Najara's zealotry. Plus, I think that was > Xena's way of saying the fight was over and didn't have to be to the death > (perhaps partly in deference to Gabs). Rather a high-risk way of saying it.... I hesitate to suggest that it was just so that Gabs could save Xena (umm, who wrote the script? Steve Sears? No, R J Stewart - okay, I won't suggest it ) > I didn't see anything particularly freakish in Najara's first attack. She > felt she was a better person/fighter (especially for Gabrielle). She had a > different opinion about how to deal with bad guys than Xena. She told her > men to stay out of the fray. Basically, she seemed intent on a fair fight > -- winner getting Gabs. I didn't see anything in her previous behavior > that equaled the "bat out of hell" she became after Xena'd knocked her into > the wall. > > -- Ife I didn't say 'freakish', I said 'freako' - in my opinion there's something definitely fanatical about someone who would start a fight over who was going to 'get' Gabrielle. (Or anybody, for that matter, I'm not running down Gabs' worth here ) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:28:14 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:02, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snip) > > You're right -- not typical Xena, because she didn't take things personally > or let them get to her personally. Sure, some of it was part of an act to > defeat Najara, but Xena was perfectly willing to "let it all hang out" in > this situation. It was "raw" Reformed Xena like we seldom got to see, and > it was because she let a puny, sweet-talking wacko make a fool of her and > beat the stuffing out of her for good measure. I could hear her thinking, > "*Nobody* does that to the WP and gets away with it." Heh. Well, yes, that I liked. What I couldn't 'see' was Najara actually being able to do it to Xena in the first place. As a 'Callisto replacement' she just couldn't cut it. > > >Except for the "blood" and bruises Xena and > > >Najara had on them, the physical and emotional toll was projected in > > > their absolute disdain for each other, communicated in every expression > > > and move. I give the actors a lot more credit for those kinds of > > > fights, than when a lot of special effects are involved. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > Umm, special effects - what about the gravity-defying rolling up the > > vines in the last fight in The Convert?>> > > No, I mainly meant CRUSADER. Although they had some pretty good exchanges > in CONVERT before the fight. Okay, I just watched the Xena-Alti-Gabs-Naiyima fight in Between The Lines again last night. And regardless of the special effects and the makeup, I certainly saw as good acting from Lucy in that fight, as I've seen her in anything. She got comprehensively beaten up, and when Naiyima neutralised Alti and gave Xena a chance to produce her 'energy' chakrams (where did she learn that, btw? - don't care, they looked really cool) the look on Xena's face was determined, bloody and grim - great stuff! I give Lucy more credit for that fight, I think, than any other - that's why it's my favourite fight. > > Ultimately, getting right down to it, I guess I just don't think a flako > > like > > Najara was any more worthy of Xena's attention than Milo was, and > > therefore I > > take no pleasure in seeing her defeated in such a manner, whether by > > trickery > > or not. >> > > No doubt many considered Hitler a "flako" too -- even well after they > should've taken him more seriously -- and done something about him. Bad analogy - on the simplest level, I'm not aware that Hitler was ever noted for his physical abilities, or that he got into fights. You could rate him more like Caesar who (in XWP at least) rarely did his own fighting (IIRC A Good Day was the only exception). (And the circumstances surrounding the rise of Hitler were sufficiently complex, I don't think bringing him into it is useful). > In > fact, quite a few folks who do great damage look like they couldn't hurt a > flea. They get past everybody's radar for too long precisely because > nobody thinks they're worth attention. Many of the warlords, corrupt > officials, etc. Xena fought weren't "worthy" opponents phsycially or in > mentally. They were worth her attention because of the harm they did or > could do. Mylo was about to cause a war between two groups of people. > Najara went around killing people who didn't see her "light." Yes but - I could credit Najara with running a cult, or getting others to do the fighting for her. What I couldn't credit her with was either the intensity (such as Callisto had) or the physical build (like say Alti) to actually be any good at all in a fight, or to take on Xena. No way. > I loved Xena's practicality, that she didn't waste time worrying about her > image or be dismissive of "minor" people or events that could do harm. > Xena saw a "mess" -- big or small -- and cleaned it up, while everybody > else walked by because it was beneath them, or "not my responsibility," or > not worth getting their hands dirty. She was more of a hero -- above > average -- to me because of that, rather than if she only fought opponents > "worthy" of her reputation. That's what made her "the people's" hero, in > terms of their trusting that she would help them without using some chart > that outlined which causes had enough stature to deserve her attention. I think you're setting up windmills to tilt at, there. I don't recall any fictional hero ever saying "I'm not taking on X because he isn't in my league". Come to that, Herc for example was always on the side of the 'little guy' - more explicitly so than Xena, in fact. But anyway, I'm not suggesting that Xena wouldn't bother to squash Najara when necessary - just that I don't see Najara being able to cause Xena so much trouble in doing so. > > In fact I don't believe Xena, however distracted, would have let > > Najara > > get the drop on her like that. (Maybe one reason why I don't like > > most of Season 4 that much - Xena Warrior Doofus. > > Well, we've beat that horse before. I think our comments here are a pretty > good indication of why we differ about that. > > -- Ife Yep. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:39:27 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:27:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Yes, but would you rate S1 *higher* than S2 (as the reviewer stated?) > > That > > was my point, that I doubt if you'd find *any* group of fans who would > > rate S1 as the best season (though you could find a group who rate S2 > > as best, I > > think). > > Oh, sorry, I wasn't even getting into the ratings aspect. I think the > whole concept of such a thing is ridiculous. To me, each season had > different goals, opportunities and challenges, so I have some different > standards for each. Umm, maybe you on your 'everything is relative' kick might take that view , but most fans appear to have no trouble deciding which season they think is 'best', and arguing it vehemently ;) > For those nostalgic for the fresh "bloom" of the > series, I can see where they might rate S1 higher than *any* season. Who > knows what reviewers take into consideration or where they go to get fan > reactions. > > -- Ife Well, of course, what some reviewer claims to be a 'consensus' (I forget the actual words the guy used) is usually just nonsense anyway. But I have just never seen any survey anywhere that would suggest S1 out-rated S2, nor (come to that) do I recall ever seeing any posted opinions that S1 was better than S2. I _have_ seen posted opinions that the Rift in S3 'ruined' the series, so I do understand (even though I don't agree) how for some group of fans, no season from S3 on would be any good. And I've seen posted opinions that S2 was the best season - but never S1, that I can recall. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:42:06 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators >OK, I stand corrected. Not one of the more memorable eps, for me. Oh, same, but when you do the transcripts, the episodes are BURNED into memory. ;) >Ah, I hadn't realised they'd changed it. I must watch more carefully. >Another reason to like Season 5, no? The most observant cr didn't notice!? ACK! You got check out "Amphipolis Under Seige" boy! Oh yes, Jane Holland made a WONDERFUL and brilliant edition to Ngila Dickson's amazing design (admire the arm bands that make tiny Lucy look like she's got massive muscles). Xena's leather was changed in two way: The outside 'gurter' and it became black leather, rather than the brown we were so used to. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:38:12 -0500 From: Cousin Liz Subject: [chakram-refugees] FF - IseQween's SHOW ME In IseQween's story "SHOW ME," a young runaway bears witness to events that turn Xena toward becoming the Destroyer of Nations, as revealed in the episode DESTINY. Please enjoy. http://cousinliz.com/fanfic/iseqween_sm.html - -- Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net Soulmates Xena Dinosaur Bards http://cousinliz.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:14:48 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra In a message dated 1/24/2005 2:19:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I'm not suggesting that Xena wouldn't bother to squash Najara > when necessary - just that I don't see Najara being able to cause Xena so > much trouble in doing so. > Okay, you don't see her as physically imposing enough to cause Xena trouble. Cool. I'm suggesting Najara's physical aspects weren't that important, that it was Xena who gave Najara the power to fool her and let her guard down sufficiently to get beaten. But if you don't accept that Xena could ever be in such a mental frame, then I can see why the Najara thing isn't credible to you. From what you've said, you don't accept that the vision could make Xena do most of the "uncharacteristic" things she did quite a bit of in S4. I think that's the crux of our different views. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:14:52 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Morris/Najara In a message dated 1/24/2005 12:33:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > One of the things that makes many eps of 'Herc' watchable for me, > is the strength of the secondary characters, more often women than men, I > think. Crap. I may have to watch more of Herc if the series comes back on a channel I get. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:14:49 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies ... In a message dated 1/24/2005 2:19:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I wasn't even getting into the ratings aspect. I think the > >whole concept of such a thing is ridiculous. To me, each season had > >different goals, opportunities and challenges, so I have some different > >standards for each. > > Umm, maybe you on your 'everything is relative' kick might take that view > , but most fans appear to have no trouble deciding which season they > think is 'best', and arguing it vehemently ;) >. Perhaps. Can't say what "most fans" do. I was only speaking about *this* fan. :-) As to the "relative kick," I just can't see the series as "static" or one-dimensional. I think the first season did an excellent job of laying the groundwork, of establishing basic themes we'd see throughout the series. I think Lucy did an excellent job of portraying Xena at that point in Xena's life and Lucy's early sense of the character. I think ROC portrayed the naive, exhuberant Gabrielle who was needed at that early stage. While I found later seasons more dramatically interesting and the actors' performances more demanding, that doesn't make the accomplishments of S1 "less than." I still enjoy it for itself, just as I enjoy later seasons for themselves. I simply don't see the need to rank order them, when that does nothing to make me appreciate them any more. - -- Ife - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:14:51 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators In a message dated 1/24/2005 2:18:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >I liked my WP's humanity -- her flaws, mistakes, ignorance, etc. Made > >her triumphs more meaningful to me than if she'd been a robot. > > Now that's absurd. NOT a robot, an experienced warrior who's been around > the block... turning her back on an opponent in a fight is the sort of > mistake she would not make.>> To me, a robot is programmed to perform in the same way in all or specific situations. (I'm speaking of an old-fashioned notion of robots, not the newer generation that looks and acts "human.") The idea is not to worry about emotions, doubts, distractions, fatigue, perceptions, etc. getting in the way. A human being -- no matter how experienced -- is subject to any of those factors occurring, sometimes when least expected or when the person is confident for whatever reason that she can "relax" her guard. Other people are almost always surprised, as is the "expert." "Why on earth did I do that?" "How on earth could a 'veteran' let that happen?" IOW, we can't always predict what someone will do, because -- fortunately or unfortunately -- we are not robots. If I could've been so sure at every moment what Xena would do, I wouldn't have found the character so fascinating. > >I didn't see anything particularly freakish in Najara's first attack. She > >felt she was a better person/fighter (especially for Gabrielle). She had a > >different opinion about how to deal with bad guys than Xena. She told her > >men to stay out of the fray. Basically, she seemed intent on a fair fight > >-- winner getting Gabs. I didn't see anything in her previous behavior > >that equaled the "bat out of hell" she became after Xena'd knocked her into > >the wall. > > > >-- Ife > > I didn't say 'freakish', I said 'freako' - in my opinion there's something > definitely fanatical about someone who would start a fight over who was > going > to 'get' Gabrielle. (Or anybody, for that matter, I'm not running down > Gabs' worth here ) >> Actually, Xena's the one who precipitated the fight by coming back for Gabs, whom she didn't "own" anymore than Najara did. Nevertheless, Xena had left Gabs with Najara as one might a pet who would be better off with someone who had a bigger yard to play in. She did it behind Gabs' back, with no discussion whatsoever about what Gabs wanted. Sure, Xena did so with the understanding that Najara would take good -- maybe better -- care of Gabs. Najara was of the same opinion, which wasn't all that ridiculous given what both Gabs and Xena ("I seem to hurt her") had said. But, no, Xena changes her mind and comes bristling in, full warrior mode, ready to take Gabs back. Najara basically says, "Nope, you gave her to me, she likes my yard, she's mine now." Najara knows Gabs may die hanging with Xena -- literarally. Xena knows Najara isn't the Goody Two Shoes Gabs thinks. Both thought they knew what was best for Gabs. Each believes she's right and has the moral claim to Gabs (who gets to stand there like a puppy wondering which one will remember to take her outside for a potty break). Najara won't back down from keeping what Xena supposedly gave her. Xena won't back down from trying to take it back. They fight. You could say Xena tended to be a bit possessive (fanatical even) herself about some things -- like Argo or Gabrielle. My point is that, up until Najara's explosion from the baskets, her behavior wasn't all that unreasonable. Heck, it wasn't much different from Xena's. (Najara heard voices. Xena could talk to spirits, among other beings). If who started the fight is any indication of being fanatical, I'd say Xena is as good a candidate as Najara. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. 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