From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V5 #20 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, January 24 2005 Volume 05 : Number 020 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators ["Xena Torres" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators Oh, I understood all that, I just didn't buy it. And Xena didn't lose because she was worried about Gabrielle like when Xena got Najara with it later - Gab was in no danger. Xena simply lost, and it just wasn't believable. Course, that's the problem when you make a character that can battle 1000 warriors by herself. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: IfeRae@aol.com >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators >Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:03:00 EST > >In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:03:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, >xenatorres@hotmail.com writes: > > > Yes. See, I liked Kathryn's performance, but I hated Najara. I didn't >buy > > it. There's only FOUR characters i buy BEATING Xena: > > > > 1) Callisto (She's Xena - who never 'beat' Xena as a mortal, only >suckered > > her by targeting kids) > > 2) Ares (um, he's a god, duh) > > 3) Livia (Daughter of Xena and Callisto - hell yes) > > 4) Alti (mystic powers and all - though more her powers then her >fighting > > skills except in BTL) > > > >But you see, Najara's power lay in her ability to get Xena to beat herself. >Yes, Najara's fighting skills were portrayed as equal to Xena's. Thing is, >she would never have gotten the upper hand, if not for Xena's conflicted >state >at the time. She was worried about the vision, about getting Gabs killed. >She >put her initial doubts about Najara aside and saw who she wanted to see -- >someone with ideals Gab needed and the physical ability to protect her. > >Xena turns her back on Najara and decides she's won in a fair fight and >that >no one needs to die. Again, Xena underestimates Najara's willingness to >attack from behind, to win at any cost and to "eradicate" evil at her own >discretion. Xena knew what to expect from Cally, Ares, Alti, and Livia. >They were >quite aboveboard in their intentions. Under other circumstances, Xena >would've >smelled out Najara's danger as well. But that's why her ambiguity made her >the >perfect enemy for Xena, as someone who could use Xena's concerns about Gabs >as Xena's "weakness." I happened to think Morris did well as a zealot with >many skills, but I ultimately credit Xena herself for letting her guard >down >enough for Najara to get through. > > >-- Ife >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:15:55 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Favorite Seasons ( was Re: Xena, Herc in Kids' Movies book) On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:03, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/22/2005 1:34:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > I personally agree, S3 (or possibly S5 though I know I'm in a minority > > there) > > were the best seasons. But, even in the case of those fans who were > > turned > > > > off by the Rift in S3, I don't think any of them would rate S1 higher > > than S2. (I suppose now someone will prove me wrong....) > > I think my favorite is S4, with S3 a close second. I have to admit, I'm a > lot fonder of S1&2 in retrospect. They make me nostalgic in a way the > other seasons don't. I never tire watching SINS, reliving that feeling of > seeing something special, anticipating what I'd learn about this enigmatic > warrior. I love the dogged determination of cryptic, "don't get too close" > early Xena. I like the simpler storylines the characters have to deal with > -- Xena's pursed-lipped tolerance of Gabs' naivete, Gabs' unquenchable (if > annoying) enthusiasm. Yes, but would you rate S1 *higher* than S2 (as the reviewer stated?) That was my point, that I doubt if you'd find *any* group of fans who would rate S1 as the best season (though you could find a group who rate S2 as best, I think). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:22:16 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:22, Xena Torres wrote: > >However, I can't be nearly so specific with Farscape, and with Alias I can > >hardly relate incidents ot >the episodes at all. Why is this? > > I think it helps that Xena has the titles ON THE SCREEN. I can never > remember titles of eps when I gotta go look them up. They are just not > there. ;) Well, Farscape has the titles on the screen (and I have to say, IMO, Seasons 3 & 4 of Farscape have the most elegant, cool and stylish titles of any series I have ever seen). And in the case of Alias, I'm using the DVD's, so selecting the title each time.... > >who else did beat Xena anyway? Najara, we've already dismissed . > > Milo - I just can't see it. >Whatever took Xena so long to swat him? > > Prince Morloch in Dangerous Prey, gave her a good >battle. And The > > Berserker in Sin Trade. But they didn't beat her. > > *TSK!* Missed TWO! Bellerophon - To Helicon and Back. and Hercules, but > ONLY after she had gone through the gauntlet AND because he was helped! HA! Yes to Herc. Did Bellerophon beat Xena or did she deliberately let him - IIRC it wasn't much of a fight, anyway. > >Xena's armour, IMO, makes her look dumpy - big boobs, big butt, skinny > >waist. > >About as sexy as the Michelin Man. :( > > ACK! I LOVE Xena's leather outfit! ACK! > BATTLE ON XENA! And you don't think it makes her look fatter? Or you don't think it matters? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:29:11 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:03, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:03:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > xenatorres@hotmail.com writes: > > Yes. See, I liked Kathryn's performance, but I hated Najara. I didn't buy > > it. There's only FOUR characters i buy BEATING Xena: > > > > 1) Callisto (She's Xena - who never 'beat' Xena as a mortal, only > > suckered her by targeting kids) > > 2) Ares (um, he's a god, duh) > > 3) Livia (Daughter of Xena and Callisto - hell yes) > > 4) Alti (mystic powers and all - though more her powers then her fighting > > skills except in BTL) > > But you see, Najara's power lay in her ability to get Xena to beat herself. > Yes, Najara's fighting skills were portrayed as equal to Xena's. And that I can't credit, she has neither the physique nor the intensity. > Thing is, > she would never have gotten the upper hand, if not for Xena's conflicted > state at the time. She was worried about the vision, about getting Gabs > killed. She put her initial doubts about Najara aside and saw who she > wanted to see -- someone with ideals Gab needed and the physical ability to > protect her. Yes I know that, and I still can't credit it and I wouldn't like it if I did. This is Xena, Warrior Princess, Destroyer of Nations, not some amateur. > Xena turns her back on Najara and decides she's won in a fair fight and > that no one needs to die. Again, Xena underestimates Najara's willingness > to attack from behind, to win at any cost and to "eradicate" evil at her > own discretion. Xena knew what to expect from Cally, Ares, Alti, and > Livia. They were quite aboveboard in their intentions. Under other > circumstances, Xena would've smelled out Najara's danger as well. But > that's why her ambiguity made her the perfect enemy for Xena, as someone > who could use Xena's concerns about Gabs as Xena's "weakness." I happened > to think Morris did well as a zealot with many skills, but I ultimately > credit Xena herself for letting her guard down enough for Najara to get > through. > > -- Ife Hang on - Najara had already shown what a freako she was by attacking Xena in the first place. That seems above-board enough to me. Why would Xena suddenly decide Najara could be trusted enough to turn her back on her? Don't like it at all. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:35:58 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena And Gab return as Elektra On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:03, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/22/2005 1:34:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > For example, my favourite fight, between Xena and Alti in Between > > The Lines, is one in which Xena gets most thoroughly beaten up - but > > analysing it, most of that was done by makeup and special effects, with > > little physical wear and tear on the actors. > > You know, I think that's precisely why the fights between Xena and Najara > might be my favorite. I felt tension in the fights Xena had with Ares, > immortal Cally and Alti because there was always the possibility they could > use "otherworldly" powers to beat Xena, if only temporarily. Najara was > the first time I felt, "Oh, no, this puny mortal may actually beat Xena!" > As I say in another post, it's not because I thought she was so formidable > in herself, but because Xena was *letting* her get to her. I wanted to > shout, "Xena, snap to it! Stop turning your back on that fool!" That's precisely why I don't like it. For me, Najara is a flake with no credibility. And therefore unworthy of giving Xena a hard time in a fight. She just doesn't look the part. > To your second point about the special effects, that's what I also like > most about the Xena/Najara fights. They were so *personal* in terms of > Xena's being played for a fool and Najara believing she was better than > Xena, particularly as Gabrielle's guardian. Xena's semi-crazy behavior at > the end wasn't just an act. She wanted to knock Najara into that pit with > a personal satisfaction (and vengeance) she didn't exhibit when she let > Cally die or killed Alti. Well, yes, I liked that bit > Except for the "blood" and bruises Xena and > Najara had on them, the physical and emotional toll was projected in their > absolute disdain for each other, communicated in every expression and move. > I give the actors a lot more credit for those kinds of fights, than when a > lot of special effects are involved. > > -- Ife Umm, special effects - what about the gravity-defying rolling up the vines in the last fight in The Convert? To me, that was just incredibly phony - much harder to believe than the ladder fight in 'Callisto' for example. It just is physically absurd. I finfd it far easier to believe in those supernatural chackies that Xena threw in 'Between the Lines', than in a supposedly non-supernatural stunt like in The Convert. But in any case, to come back to the real point, the acting, I don't think any fight with Najara gets near Lucy's performance in Between The Lines when Alti was beating her up. That scream when she 'felt' her legs being broken, for example. Ultimately, getting right down to it, I guess I just don't think a flako like Najara was any more worthy of Xena's attention than Milo was, and therefore I take no pleasure in seeing her defeated in such a manner, whether by trickery or not. In fact I don't believe Xena, however distracted, would have let Najara get the drop on her like that. (Maybe one reason why I don't like most of Season 4 that much - Xena Warrior Doofus. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:35:33 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena above all the imitators >Well, Farscape has the titles on the screen Then I am blind. ;) >Yes to Herc. Did Bellerophon beat Xena or did she deliberately let him - >IIRC it wasn't much of a fight, anyway. He did. Act one when she came to rescue Varia. He won, she ran (er, jumped out a window). The fourth act, she LET him win, yes, but he did beat her once. >And you don't think it makes her look fatter? Or you don't think it >matters? You know what? The original kinda did, but once she got the seperate piece one in season five that didn't bunch, then no. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:33:45 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Morris/Najara In a message dated 1/22/2005 5:47:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:17, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > >When I look at "Alias" or "Cold Case" or almost any other show with a > >female lead, I keep waiting for the actor to break free of the plot or the > >action, to somehow project something visceral, memorable -- not necessarily > >on the same level as Xena or Gabrielle, but at least like Callisto, Alti, > >Lao Ma, Ephiny, M'Lila, Cyane, Najara. > > Don't forget Amarice! - I liked Jennifer Sky in Cleo 2525, but the role > wasn't nearly as good (IMO) as Amarice. > > To those I would *have* to add, Nebula. I know she was on Herc, but > I haven't seen her in such a delicious role in anything else. > Heck, I loved the few minutes Torres played Cleo in XWP. I didn't watch Herc regularly, but I was generally impressed with the solid roles women got in that show as well -- like Morrigan (?). Tapert & Co. really knew how to let actors shine in terms of what they brought to a character, as opposed to expecting them to stay in boxes. I loved that the women got to exude sexuality as well as strength. Take Torres in XWP. Her byplay with Autolycus was as equals, not the "I must pretend I'm an idiot and manipulate you so that I get what I want but still make you look good/in charge" kind of stuff "the suits" seem obsessed with. Women guest stars in Herc/Xena got to be well rounded, play nuances, give little quirks to the character that I think helped make them memorable. Amarice didn't do that much for me, but I do think Skye did a great job with what she was given. The list could go on, with Alison Bruce and Wall, Joelson, Paris Jefferson, Alex Tydings. I'd take any on of those performances over the usual one-dimensional stuff. Yep, XWP spoiled me forever. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V5 #20 *************************************