From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #304 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, December 19 2004 Volume 04 : Number 304 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Conquest -- and Friend in Need?? [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Why did Xena keep Gbrielle around? ["Cheryl Ande" I expect my opinions are usually compatible with my > 'frame of reference', but that's probably a minor factor. My opinion of > Gbas, for example, has far more to do with how her (on-screen) personality > impacts on my tastes, and both of those things - Gabs' personality and my > tastes - are far more complex and subtle mixtures of factors than anything > one could make rules about.<< Well, really that's all I meant -- the collection of experiences, values, biases, traits -- tastes -- that influences our opinions -- how we "see" things. Not necessarily some set of "rules," but opinions don't spring up "out of the blue," either. As you recall, I'm the one who believes *personal* "reality" is extremely subjective, precisely because it has to do with the "complex and subtle mixtures of factors" that would apply in anyone's case. Who Gabs is to you is completely different from who Gabs is to me, not because she's different, but because you and I are. My flip comment came because what you think may be be going on in Xena's head about Gabs is so far from what I would've thought. I chalked it up to different frames of reference. > > Why is it, for example, that I love Callisto and don't care for Najara at > all? What's Callisto got that Najara hasn't? That was just a rhetorical > question, btw, I'm not looking for an answer because I think there isn't > one, > or at least, not a specific one. I could say 'Callisto's got charisma' or > 'she's got personality' but that's just a vague generalisation, it doesn't > really identify what 'it' is. >> I happen to think there is an answer, but that it lies in you, not the character. I think it's possible for you to describe what "it" is to you in terms of "charisma" or "personality." In fact, if I asked you why you like Callisto vs. Gabs, you could probably give me a bunch of reasons. I accept that there's a character onscreen who has nothing to do with you or me. I just happen to believe the one we're talking about is the one we see through our unique lense -- frame of reference. > I think you'll find that the fans got into it as early as half way through > Season One. Most certainly be Season 3 onwards the fans were known to > TPTB. > IMO much of the sentimental moments in Seasons 4 onwards were a response to > the demands of the Gabfans / subtexters. >> So you believe TPTB did that solely to placate that one segment of fandom? If so, why? What was the benefit to Tappy & Co. to possibly alienate other fans? > >I meant she conveyed a lot of what was underneath her motivations -- her > >emotions, conflictedness, etc. -- in conversations with Gabs. > > Well, yes, but that's _Xena_ articulating her motivations, not Gabs doing it > for her as you suggested. >. My point is that we learned more about Xena's inner workings because of Gabs, regardless of which one was doing the talking. Gabs was important in that regard, if only as a vehicle or plot device on a storytelling level. Nothing new in that. That's what sidekicks are usually for. I'm just not understanding why that's seen as somehow taking away from Xena's independence or "strong" image. > > >Helping lover boy in PATH NOT TAKEN or babysitting the kid in CRADLE were > >not things Xena might've taken on or even noticed if Gabs hadn't been so > >enthusiastic. Simply talking out loud about her plans might've been a way > >to process them so Gabs could respond to if she wanted. That was early on. > > By season 3, we have the first ep (FURIES) with Xena in a situation where > >she has to rely on Gabs as a bell weather for her sanity. She borrows > >Gabs' inadvertent idea for pitting her gang against each other in DIRTY > >HALF DOZEN. If Gabs had wanted to, she could've talked Xena into taking > >her with her to Chin. From then on, I'd say she involved Gabs a lot more > >in contributing to decisions, even if Xena still did what she thought best. > > But none of those, I think, are Xena 'bouncing ideas off Gabs' as such. >> To me "bouncing ideas" off someone can mean everything frome talking outloud without expecting an answer, to actually testing the validity of some course of action -- the one she started with or one that reflects input from Gabs, even if Xena didn't want or expect any input. What does it mean to you? > I don't see where Gabs influenced Xena to save Callisto's life. She > registered approval _after_ the event. >> I think it was Gabs' influence -- giving someone the benefit of the doubt -- not her opinion at the time. Xena was conscious that she herself had been given that -- by Herc, then by Gabs. Gabs' continuing to travel with her made "but I changed" more concret and personal. > > Solstice Carol doesn't even register on my consciousness . > > Destiny, yes. The Price - as I recall, Gabs' viewpoint worked in one > place, but most of the ep Xena overrode her and was right (in tactical > terms) > to do so. >> Again, you're focusing on your opinion of whether Gabs' viewpoint "worked." I'm focusing on whether there was exchange of viewpoints at all. And regardless Xena's initial reaction, she later saw value in Gabs' view. My take was that Xena regarded her change of mind as a broadening of her perspective -- "growth." I resist the notion that Xena was pigheaded or "sure" to the point of doing what she thought ineffective, that she didn't change or grow one iota, particularly from Gabs' influence. You may see Gabs' actions as tactically unsound. I don't. You may see Xena's later response as "placating" Gabs or poor writing. I don't. > > The fourth season, as I recall, was one where Gabs was being particularly > irritating with her 'way' and Xena was having to do quite a bit of ignoring > just to survive. ;) > > >I disagree, based on my examples above. Sometimes it was a look from Gabs. > >Sometimes I think it was Gabs' influence. > > That's hardly hard evidence.... one could also put it down to Xena's own > knowledge of what was the right thing to do (as she said after she saved > Callisto). >> I dont' think either of us is talking "hard evidence," so much as discussing as what we chose to take into account when forming our opinions. In my mind, Xena's "it's the right thing" was said like someone repeating a rule they haven't quite bought into yet, but do anyway for some reason. I wasn't sure if she was saying it for Gabs' benefit, her own, or both. > > >We have a different view of "dominate" and "control." To me those words > >mean forcing someone to do what someone else wants. > > As in, all the times in Season 3 (for example) when Gabs told Xena not to go > after Caesar, not to go to Chin, not to do what Xena was good at? I'd call > that attempts to 'control' her. >> Okay. > > >Ares tried that, and > >we see how Xena dealt with him. Gabrielle supported Xena in what Xena > >professed to want. > > What do you mean? >> Ares tried to get her to embrace the life she wanted to rise above. She told him to go to Hades. Gabs tried to get Xena to stay on course for "rising above." Xena might argue or do what she had to anyway, but she believed Gabs had here better interests at heart. > >I > >always find it ironic that Xena could be seen as someone so strong-willed, > >yet would lug around a companion whom she could either dismiss as useless > >or was constantly trying to make her do what she didn't want. > > Yep, I found it not only ironic but incomprehensible >> You wouldn't if you decided Xena must have a good reason, regardless of whether we understood. > > >Yes, that's what I meant by "frame of reference" above. As long as you > >don't see/hear it, it didn't happen as far as you're concerned. > > Umm, nope. I fully acknowledge - in fact, I *insist* - that 'it' happened, > whatever it was - just that I didn't notice / remember it. The world is > full of things that are happening that I don't know about, but I'd never > maintain they didn't happen. >> So you agree with me that Gabs influenced Xena and helped Xena articulate her motivations? You believe this could have happened, even though you don't see it? If so, I misinterpreted your view. > > > However, let's see - here's a few: > >>The Debt (that one's glaringly obvious) >> > > > >Not to me. As I said above, Gabs could've talked Xena into taking her. In > >the end, Xena wasn't going to kill Baby Ming (her original intent) until he > >forced her hand. > > No. Gabs did her darndest to persuade Xena not to go. Xena went anyway. > Xena probably would have let Gabs go along - that wasn't the critical point.> > > The issue we were discussing was whether Gabs put her two cents in and whether Xena paid any attention. Whether Gabs accompanied Xena or not was ultimately Gabs' decision. I suggest the outcome might've been significantly different if Gabs had taken the direct route. And I do agree that Gabs meant to control Xena in this instance by going behind her back instead. > The reason she didn't kill Ming straight off and things all went > pear-shaped > was, of course, Gabs bed-hopping. >> I was talking about at the end. Mind you, it could've been because of Lao Ma - -- making her son "small" in a nonlethal way once that option was presented. My point is that she wouldn't have had that nonlethal option -- which she was perfectly willing to take -- with Gabs bed-hopping. Again, I'm not judging the wisdom of that option, but it's availability and Xena's decision that it was worth trying. > > >>When in Rome - Gabs didn't like the plan at all and Xena overrode her > >>(and for once, Gabs did more or less as she was told) >> > > > >It was Gabs' choice to save Whosits or not. If it was left up to Xena, his > >being able to live wouldn't necessarily have been part of the plan. > > Gabs repeatedly said she wanted no part of taking Crassus to Rome and Xena > virtually ordered her to do it. >> The issue was whether her taking him there meant he'd die. Xena didn't care one way or the other, but she gave Gabs the ring that might prevent the death. Xena did not seem to expect that Gabs wouldn't use it as planned. > >>Gurkhan >> > > > >Xena went in the first place because Gabs wanted to. She had no more > >business secretly taking things into her own hands than Gabs did in DEBT. > > Even though Gabs was going to incompetently get herself killed.... but > anyway, the point is, Xena (and Eve) decided Gabs' would be incapable of > killing Gurkhan and went in to do the job herself. I'd call that fairly > 'dismissive' of Gabs' capabilities. >> I'd called it controlling and patronizing. Like Gabs in Debt, she called herself operating out of concern, but that doesn't change that she went behind Gabs' back just like Gabs did. No doubt you see that differently, certainly worth a double standard, eh? > > >>Legacy >> > > > >Gabs did what she thought best. Xena once again took matters into her own > >hands. They both did that to protect the other. Nobody made Xena "rescue" > >Gabs. It was her own double standard that said she should go to prison or > >let herself get beat up or killed, with no interference from Gabs, while it > >was perfectly fine for Xena to interfere whenever she wanted. Doesn't > >matter that she was supposed to "know better." It was Gabs' life, just > >like Xena could do what she wanted with her life. > > Well, we all know just how much *I* think Xena should have bothered to keep > getting Gabs out of the messes she got herself into - but still, all > these are instances where Xena did what she thought was right regardless of > Gabs' objections. I think they could be regarded as 'dismissive'. >> But it wasn't okay for Gabs to do what she thought right, regardless of Xena's objections? Rhetorical question. :-) > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:59:01 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Why did Xena keep Gbrielle around? It's funny that so many of us wonder why Xena keep Gabrielle with her in the first season. Gabby was after all annoying, prone to trouble, and overly naive. As cr keeps pointing out Milia would have been a better fighter and Akemi had a strong will and a cunning nature so they would have been better sidekicks than a naive chatty teenager. Well Xena didn't need a fighting sidekick or a cunning one - she was after all more cunning and a better warrior than any one around. What she needed was someone who had faith in her - who wasn't intimidated by her and who liked her as a person, not as a warrior or even a beautiful woman. Maybe what drew Xena to Gabrielle was that the girl never afraid of her - yes she got into trouble and talked insistently and always assumed Xena would put up with her. To Xena that must have been refreshing - here was some one trusted her to be tolerant and understanding and most of all kind. I'm sure it was very much like her relationship with her adored little brother - I bet he was annoying too but he was her one true friend. On top of this here was a person who always assumed Xena was a good person; something Xena was never sure of. Yet Gabrielle over the years always believed Xena's true nature was heroic and noble and Xena tried her best to always live up to that image. That was what Gabrielle gave Xena - the vision of herself not as a merely a reformed villain but a genuine hero. I also don't quit know where we get the impression Xena was some kind of loner who suddenly and explicably decides she needs a companion. Xena never was a loner. She was consistently picking up lovers and companions - Caesar, Millia, Borias, Lao Mao, Cyane, Alti, Akemi, Marcus, Draco, Thalia (Animal Attraction), etc. Apparently Xena craved companionship even when evil. Of course she usually sabotaged the best of these relationships or chose to trust the wrong people. This was not a woman who wanted to be alone in the world. The trouble of course was that Xena was plagued by guilt over Lyceus's death and anger over her mother's rejection and was self destructive. Although she seemed be on the fast track to ruler of the world she always did manage to screw things up. She could have ruled Chin but betrayed Lao Mao, she could have had a place of honor with the Amazons but betrayed them, she and Borias might have conquered Greece but she turned against him at the moment victory was at hand. In the Norse country when might have had great power as Odin's lover and the leader of the Valkary yet she ruined it by going after the ring making sure she would fail in that endeavor by sparing the one person who had the will and skill to stop her. Xena spent most of "evil" days failing because she could not trust people who really cared for her. When Xena reformed she finally did something right she trusted a chatty girl who cared for her. Gabrielle's faith in Xena's goodness and honor made Xena become the person Gabrielle believed her to be - a noble hero. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #304 **************************************