From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #303 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, December 18 2004 Volume 04 : Number 303 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Conquest -- and Friend in Need?? [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Conquest -- and Friend in Need?? On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Oh, sorry. I thought you were basing your opinion on your own frame of > reference. Hmmmm. Not really. I expect my opinions are usually compatible with my 'frame of reference', but that's probably a minor factor. My opinion of Gbas, for example, has far more to do with how her (on-screen) personality impacts on my tastes, and both of those things - Gabs' personality and my tastes - are far more complex and subtle mixtures of factors than anything one could make rules about. Why is it, for example, that I love Callisto and don't care for Najara at all? What's Callisto got that Najara hasn't? That was just a rhetorical question, btw, I'm not looking for an answer because I think there isn't one, or at least, not a specific one. I could say 'Callisto's got charisma' or 'she's got personality' but that's just a vague generalisation, it doesn't really identify what 'it' is. There's far more to it than just whether a character fits in with my 'frame of reference' or my prejudices or whatever. > Thing is, much of that was established early on, before the fans got into > it. I got the impression from some of Sears' comments that he'd always had > a special place in his heart for Gabs. Mind you, I'm going by what I got > from TV, not from fan comments. I think you'll find that the fans got into it as early as half way through Season One. Most certainly be Season 3 onwards the fans were known to TPTB. IMO much of the sentimental moments in Seasons 4 onwards were a response to the demands of the Gabfans / subtexters. I agree with you about Steve Sears and Gabs btw, it's obvious from his DVD interviews, but he wasn't there from - - when? - start of Season 5? > I meant she conveyed a lot of what was underneath her motivations -- her > emotions, conflictedness, etc. -- in conversations with Gabs. E.g., at the > end of CHARIOTS, when she asks Gabs if she misses her family, I think Xena > was referring to herself as well. In the conversation they had by the > lake, Xena reveals both her realistic side ("the rock's still under there") > and her hope that, like Gabs, she'll be able to focus on the calm moments. > I just don't think we'd've gotten regretful, philosophical, etc. moments > from Xena in her chats with folks she was about to fight. True, grunting > is "communicating," but I wouldn't want to have watched that for six years. Well, yes, but that's _Xena_ articulating her motivations, not Gabs doing it for her as you suggested. > Helping lover boy in PATH NOT TAKEN or babysitting the kid in CRADLE were > not things Xena might've taken on or even noticed if Gabs hadn't been so > enthusiastic. Simply talking out loud about her plans might've been a way > to process them so Gabs could respond to if she wanted. That was early on. > By season 3, we have the first ep (FURIES) with Xena in a situation where > she has to rely on Gabs as a bell weather for her sanity. She borrows > Gabs' inadvertent idea for pitting her gang against each other in DIRTY > HALF DOZEN. If Gabs had wanted to, she could've talked Xena into taking > her with her to Chin. From then on, I'd say she involved Gabs a lot more > in contributing to decisions, even if Xena still did what she thought best. But none of those, I think, are Xena 'bouncing ideas off Gabs' as such. > Xena could've let Amphipolis stone her, or fought them, in SINS. She > didn't have to follow Gabs' lead. She could've knocked Gabs to kingdom > come in TIES THAT BIND, when Gabs whacked her with the pitchfork. I > believe Gabs's usual forgiveness was partly responsible for Xena not > killing Callisto the first time, even tho Gabs already believed Cally past > saving. Gabs persuaded her to take a less physical approach to events in > SOLSTICE CAROL. She helped Xena decide to come back in DESTINY. And of > course, we have THE PRICE. Those are all examples from the first two > seasons. Later examples are ONE AGAINST AND ARMY, nearly the whole fourth > season, and GURKHAN, where Gabs convinced Xena to do something different, > regardless of what we think of the results. Sins, I'll give you. I don't see where Gabs influenced Xena to save Callisto's life. She registered approval _after_ the event. Solstice Carol doesn't even register on my consciousness . Destiny, yes. The Price - as I recall, Gabs' viewpoint worked in one place, but most of the ep Xena overrode her and was right (in tactical terms) to do so. The fourth season, as I recall, was one where Gabs was being particularly irritating with her 'way' and Xena was having to do quite a bit of ignoring just to survive. ;) > I disagree, based on my examples above. Sometimes it was a look from Gabs. > Sometimes I think it was Gabs' influence. That's hardly hard evidence.... one could also put it down to Xena's own knowledge of what was the right thing to do (as she said after she saved Callisto). > We have a different view of "dominate" and "control." To me those words > mean forcing someone to do what someone else wants. As in, all the times in Season 3 (for example) when Gabs told Xena not to go after Caesar, not to go to Chin, not to do what Xena was good at? I'd call that attempts to 'control' her. > Ares tried that, and > we see how Xena dealt with him. Gabrielle supported Xena in what Xena > professed to want. What do you mean? > If Gabs had a different view, she went her own way. We know she did that, persistently. ;) > I > always find it ironic that Xena could be seen as someone so strong-willed, > yet would lug around a companion whom she could either dismiss as useless > or was constantly trying to make her do what she didn't want. Yep, I found it not only ironic but incomprehensible > Yes, that's what I meant by "frame of reference" above. As long as you > don't see/hear it, it didn't happen as far as you're concerned. Umm, nope. I fully acknowledge - in fact, I *insist* - that 'it' happened, whatever it was - just that I didn't notice / remember it. The world is full of things that are happening that I don't know about, but I'd never maintain they didn't happen. > However, let's see - here's a few: > > The Debt (that one's glaringly obvious) >> > > Not to me. As I said above, Gabs could've talked Xena into taking her. In > the end, Xena wasn't going to kill Baby Ming (her original intent) until he > forced her hand. No. Gabs did her darndest to persuade Xena not to go. Xena went anyway. Xena probably would have let Gabs go along - that wasn't the critical point. The reason she didn't kill Ming straight off and things all went pear-shaped was, of course, Gabs bed-hopping. > > When in Rome - Gabs didn't like the plan at all and Xena overrode her > > (and for once, Gabs did more or less as she was told) >> > > It was Gabs' choice to save Whosits or not. If it was left up to Xena, his > being able to live wouldn't necessarily have been part of the plan. Gabs repeatedly said she wanted no part of taking Crassus to Rome and Xena virtually ordered her to do it. > > The Deliverer > > Gabrielle's Hope >> > > The point of "the rift" was that they weren't talking to or listening to > each other anymore, with disastrous consequences. That's why it was a > "rift." Still instances where Xena didn't listen to Gabs' objections. > > Gurkhan >> > > Xena went in the first place because Gabs wanted to. She had no more > business secretly taking things into her own hands than Gabs did in DEBT. Even though Gabs was going to incompetently get herself killed.... but anyway, the point is, Xena (and Eve) decided Gabs' would be incapable of killing Gurkhan and went in to do the job herself. I'd call that fairly 'dismissive' of Gabs' capabilities. > > Legacy >> > > Gabs did what she thought best. Xena once again took matters into her own > hands. They both did that to protect the other. Nobody made Xena "rescue" > Gabs. It was her own double standard that said she should go to prison or > let herself get beat up or killed, with no interference from Gabs, while it > was perfectly fine for Xena to interfere whenever she wanted. Doesn't > matter that she was supposed to "know better." It was Gabs' life, just > like Xena could do what she wanted with her life. Well, we all know just how much *I* think Xena should have bothered to keep getting Gabs out of the messes she got herself into - but still, all these are instances where Xena did what she thought was right regardless of Gabs' objections. I think they could be regarded as 'dismissive'. > I acknowledge the exact same incredulity, which lasted a long time. It > wasn't until I started looking at her from Xena's perspective -- not my own > -- that I began to see what someone like Gabrielle could mean to her, > especially in the early stages of Xena's reformation. Xena didn't need > someone like herself. I used to dismiss Gabs because she was inexperienced, > "untested." Yet the flip side of that was absolute faith in Xena's ability > to overcome what Gabs had no clue about. It was the inability to fear what > she'd never encountered. She could tell Xena, "You can do it," with utter > confidence. That was, maybe, tolerable - until she started telling Xena what she _couldn't_ do. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #303 **************************************