From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #221 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, September 10 2004 Volume 04 : Number 221 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Forgiven (was Re: Testing because it is so quiet on th... [IfeRa] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena Costume [cr ] [chakram-refugees] When in Rome [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Forgiven (was Re: Testing because it is so quiet on th... [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy the cat and more vermin tales [nzjester@ihug.] Re: [chakram-refugees] Paradise Found ["abqbeach" ] [chakram-refugees] Panzar-Davis collectible. ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:54:14 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Forgiven (was Re: Testing because it is so quiet on th... In a message dated 9/8/2004 2:58:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >I watched it again tonight, thanks to you. I got the impression she and > >Micah were going to use it for themselves, double-crossing the gang. It > >seemed like Micah's comment about making Xena look like a fool is what > >changed her mind. Up until that point, she seemed more interested in > >impressing Micah, proving how "really bad" she was, than doing the right > >thing. > > No, I didn't see that Micah's comment about Xena had any effect on Tara. > > I think Micah and Tara had agreed to pinch it for themselves (as you said) - > > and Micah always intended to ditch Tara and keep it for himself - while by > the end of the ep, I think Tara was hoping to convince Micah to join with > her > in returning the urn and then they could (as she said) go to Athens and make > > a fresh start.>> Yes, all that may be true. I just think his dissing of Xena gave Tara the motivation to risk challenging him right then and there -- which is what forced him to show his true colors right then an there. > >>But if that theory is correct (that she was 'planting' herself as a > spy), > >>her behaviour is highly unlikely and high-risk - one doesn't normally > >>ingratiate oneself with someone by beating up their friend. >> > > > >Not necessarily. Either way, it showed a tremendous dismissal of Gabs. > >Gabs was sitting there talking mush, writing, not responding to insults, > >seemingly afraid to fight -- nothing like Tara was used to. It didn't seem > >to occur to her that the "sidekick" could be Xena's friend, not just some > >useless tagalong Xena would ditch for a good "street" fighter. > > Hmm, good point about what Tara was 'used to'. Doubtless she assumed that > the sidekick of the Warrior Princess would be a street fighter too and she > could displace her by showing that she was better. >> Yeah, Gabs had a bit of a superior air -- "I'm not going to stoop to your level." But what Tara lacked in gentility, she certainly made up for in brashness. She did indeed force Gabs to "play" on her level, where Tara thought she could win. Must've been quite a come down when Gabs later beat her butt. > >As I said above, I'm liking the second theory. I always wondered how she > >knew Micah would appear near their camp when he did. I didn't see any > >opportunity for her to contact him once she'd joined up with X&G. It did > >seem pre-arranged. Frankly, I hadn't been all that interested in Tara's > >motivations, so didn't worry about that detail. I was more focused on the > >dynamic it created between X&G. In retrospect, it fits with her, at > >minimum, keeping her options open. It also fits with her insistence on > >being seen as "bad" and being upset with X&G's genuine interest in her. It > >meant that, instead of betraying these "marks" as originally planned, she > >would have to betray her boy friend. > > > >Admittedly, my first reaction was that you were being much too paranoid, > >but now I'm thinking theory two is more complex and interesting, as well as > >"works" with the details we got. It gives Tara more depth than I gave her > >credit for. Despite negative experiences in her childhood, messages that > >she was "born bad" and falling in with the wrong crowd, something in her > >may still have yearned to be better than that. She fought to cling to her > >past and really did take a risk in letting it go -- for a future only X&G > >believed she could have. Quite a paradigm shift for her. No wonder Xena > >identified with her. Yes, I like! > > > >-- Ife > > The snag with Theory Two is I don't really believe it. I can believe Tara > was in the tavern by chance and overheard (well, you can see her listening > in > the background), and improvised from there. But I can't believe she was > planted, simply because - how would the gang know the priest would appeal to > > Xena? How would they know Xena was going to get on their case? (She > nearly didn't). Trying to plant Tara would (IMO) be a really dumb thing to > > do, simply because if it went wrong it would guarantee to attract Xena's > attention. >> No, I don't mean a "plant" in that sense. For all we know, she could've been shadowing Xena, not the priest. But since The Whole World Knows that people go to Xena for help, Tara could've figured he'd come to Xena. She could've convinced Micah before then that she could worm her way into Xena's confidence. It's a bit of a stretch, but I suppose she could've talked to Micah before she caught up to X&G. Those explanations aren't much more improbable than the chances that she seemed to somehow know Micah would be waiting for her near Xena's camp. > > My preferred theory (that Tara just took a chance) does have one apparent > problem in her finding Micah near their camp - and apparently he was > expecting her. > > So, either theory has this problem of how Tara and/or the gang might have > pre-arranged their movements. << Except that you're involving the gang, whereas I'm suggesting that Micah was acting on his own. I'm just not sure at what point he and/or Tara hatched their plot. As bad as Xenastaff could be about unexplained events, it's hard to imagine they didn't intend it to appear that Tara and Micah had some previous understanding. Otherwise, Tara could have gone off for some innocent soul-searching and been surprised to see Micah. I suppose maybe she was and just played along with him, but it didn't seem like that was the case. I won't even hurt my brain on how Micah knew where to find Tara or why the other gang members didn't try to find the women, once Xena'd "questioned" one of the gang memers. At any rate, I'm buying your pre-planning scenario, if with a different spin. So what do you do? You reject the idea. Sheesh! What's wrong with agreeing to agree? Rhetorical question, btw. > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:10:30 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena Costume On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:34, Cheryl Ande wrote: > It looks like the costume she was wearing in Eve when Xena fought Livia in > the Roman arena. > > CherylA Yes, quite right. Seems everyone knows it but me. :( But ain't you lot relieved to know there's *some* things about XWP I don't even begin to claim to know? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:42:55 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] When in Rome I was just watching the DVD of When in Rome and listening to Steve Sears' commentary, which was very informative. I always thought the biggest plot hole was that 'Vercinix's (actually Crassus's) execution was supposed to be a vital diversion to allow them to escape from Rome (really a rather weak plot point, I thought. I woulda swapped Crassus for V. and hoiigh-tailed it out of there before anyone had a chance to spot the difference.). But of course it was weakened even more by Gabrielle hanging around spectating, with Xena and Vercinix waiting for her, while Crassus got the chop. Well, apparently Steve Sears wrote it that they were long gone by that time; evidently someone thought it more dramatic if Gabrielle was present. Maybe it was, but it did rather undercut the logic of Gabs' 'mission'. The other logically weak point is why Xena had to go through the fight in the arena at all (other than the obvious, of providing us viewers with a spectacle :) Maybe there was a reason but I can't really see it. Still, I'm splitting hairs, on the whole I like the ep. I've said before, Mendala was the best-looking role that Katrina Browne had - she could have done a pretty good Warrior Princess, I think. (Steve Sears seemed to think the same). I would have liked to see her brought back for an episode - a much better part (IMO) than Thalassa. It just struck me how similar Xena's 'assassination attempt' on Caesar was, to the one in The Debt - dagger clenched between her teeth - and it didn't work *again* because her victim was forewarned *again*. Best acting of the ep, or maybe the best casting, IMO goes to Jeremy Callaghan as Pompey. He does a beautiful job as the unscrupulous, opportunistic and interested observer of Xena and Caesar's manouvreings. He's just a joy to watch. I couldn't help noticing that the sails on the boat at the end were the same purple-and-gold stripes as Xena's boat in 'Destiny' - either it was a popular design in the eastern Mediterranean or Xena's got her old boat back :) (Did sails last ten years in those days? Did boats?) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:56:08 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Forgiven (was Re: Testing because it is so quiet on th... On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:54, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/2004 2:58:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > >I watched it again tonight, thanks to you. I got the impression she and > > >Micah were going to use it for themselves, double-crossing the gang. It > > >seemed like Micah's comment about making Xena look like a fool is what > > >changed her mind. Up until that point, she seemed more interested in > > >impressing Micah, proving how "really bad" she was, than doing the right > > >thing. > > > > No, I didn't see that Micah's comment about Xena had any effect on Tara. > > > > I think Micah and Tara had agreed to pinch it for themselves (as you > > said) - > > > > and Micah always intended to ditch Tara and keep it for himself - while > > by the end of the ep, I think Tara was hoping to convince Micah to join > > with her > > in returning the urn and then they could (as she said) go to Athens and > > make a fresh start.>> > > Yes, all that may be true. I just think his dissing of Xena gave Tara the > motivation to risk challenging him right then and there -- which is what > forced him to show his true colors right then an there. Hmm, okay, maybe it did prompt her to come out with it at that particular time. I don't think it changed her intentions, but maybe just her timing. > > > > Hmm, good point about what Tara was 'used to'. Doubtless she assumed > > that the sidekick of the Warrior Princess would be a street fighter too > > and she could displace her by showing that she was better. >> > > Yeah, Gabs had a bit of a superior air -- "I'm not going to stoop to your > level." But what Tara lacked in gentility, she certainly made up for in > brashness. She did indeed force Gabs to "play" on her level, where Tara > thought she could win. Must've been quite a come down when Gabs later beat > her butt. Well, of course, Tara wasn't to know that ten thousand Gabfans would have lynched the writers if Gabs hadn't been allowed to beat her in the end > > >As I said above, I'm liking the second theory. I always wondered how > > > she knew Micah would appear near their camp when he did. I didn't see > > > any opportunity for her to contact him once she'd joined up with X&G. > > > It did seem pre-arranged. Frankly, I hadn't been all that interested in > > > Tara's motivations, so didn't worry about that detail. I was more > > > focused on the dynamic it created between X&G. In retrospect, it fits > > > with her, at minimum, keeping her options open. It also fits with her > > > insistence on being seen as "bad" and being upset with X&G's genuine > > > interest in her. It meant that, instead of betraying these "marks" as > > > originally planned, she would have to betray her boy friend. > > > > > >Admittedly, my first reaction was that you were being much too paranoid, > > >but now I'm thinking theory two is more complex and interesting, as well > > > as "works" with the details we got. It gives Tara more depth than I > > > gave her credit for. Despite negative experiences in her childhood, > > > messages that she was "born bad" and falling in with the wrong crowd, > > > something in her may still have yearned to be better than that. She > > > fought to cling to her past and really did take a risk in letting it go > > > -- for a future only X&G believed she could have. Quite a paradigm > > > shift for her. No wonder Xena identified with her. Yes, I like! > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > The snag with Theory Two is I don't really believe it. I can believe > > Tara was in the tavern by chance and overheard (well, you can see her > > listening in > > the background), and improvised from there. But I can't believe she was > > planted, simply because - how would the gang know the priest would appeal > > to > > > > Xena? How would they know Xena was going to get on their case? (She > > nearly didn't). Trying to plant Tara would (IMO) be a really dumb thing > > to > > > > do, simply because if it went wrong it would guarantee to attract Xena's > > attention. >> > > No, I don't mean a "plant" in that sense. For all we know, she could've > been shadowing Xena, not the priest. But since The Whole World Knows that > people go to Xena for help, Tara could've figured he'd come to Xena. She > could've convinced Micah before then that she could worm her way into > Xena's confidence. It's a bit of a stretch, but I suppose she could've > talked to Micah before she caught up to X&G. Those explanations aren't > much more improbable than the chances that she seemed to somehow know Micah > would be waiting for her near Xena's camp. Well, either theory has that problem, of how Tara / Micah (or the gang) could have pre-arranged anything. > > My preferred theory (that Tara just took a chance) does have one apparent > > problem in her finding Micah near their camp - and apparently he was > > expecting her. > > > > So, either theory has this problem of how Tara and/or the gang might have > > pre-arranged their movements. << > > Except that you're involving the gang, whereas I'm suggesting that Micah > was acting on his own. I'm just not sure at what point he and/or Tara > hatched their plot. As bad as Xenastaff could be about unexplained events, > it's hard to imagine they didn't intend it to appear that Tara and Micah > had some previous understanding. Otherwise, Tara could have gone off for > some innocent soul-searching and been surprised to see Micah. I suppose > maybe she was and just played along with him, but it didn't seem like that > was the case. I agree. It would have been more credible if she'd sought out Micah and he'd been a little surprised to see her, instead of apparently expecting her. Maybe that's one of those things that got changed from the way it was written. > I won't even hurt my brain on how Micah knew where to find Tara or why the > other gang members didn't try to find the women, once Xena'd "questioned" > one of the gang memers. At any rate, I'm buying your pre-planning > scenario, if with a different spin. So what do you do? You reject the > idea. Sheesh! What's wrong with agreeing to agree? Rhetorical > question, btw. > > > -- Ife With respect, why should I agree if I don't? I'm not just being awkward for the heck of it. I just can't see any variant of the theory that doesn't have a catch in it somewhere. Not a huge inpossibility, just a little niggling catch that prevents it being 100% satisfactory. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:56:55 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Paradise Found On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:15, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I just watched the commentary of Paradise Found. I thought it was > interesting to see the director and writer comment on the episode. It > would appear that Rob and Chris were pretty much of the same mind about the > episode but they obviously had differences. I gather Chris wanted Aiden to > be much more serious or at least more somber - she definitely disliked his > little butterfly clap at one point. I actually thought it was a nice touch > - sort of made you wonder if Aiden really was just a harmless guru and not > a villain. I tend to side with Rob (or at least, disagree with Chris) - I thought Aidna was quite creepy enough as it was. > I also thought Rob was very honest when he admitted rabbit teeth Xena was a > mistake. I never saw any reason for the strange make-up in order to make > Xena appear evil. Lucy is a good enough actress to convey that without > extreme make-up. In the second tub scene where Xena is hallucinating about > hurting Gabby - she certainly looked more scary with just her hair slicked > back and the lighting emphasizing her angular features than when she was > decked out in her big teeth. Agreed completely. Actually, Rob is very honest (and quite critical) of himself in these commentaries. He'll often say "I thought this was going to happen such-and-such a way - but it didn't work". > I also never really accepted the premises that Xena's core personality is > evil. I always thought that was an extreme position. To me Xena certainly > has a wild streak but I think at her core is a need for action. She is > almost hyperactive - she craves adventure and confrontation. That is what > often in the past led her astray. Gabrielle is her counterpart because she > appreciates quiet and serenity. She is more introspective that Xena and in > that way they balance each other. In Aiden's world the two women went so > far into their cores that they almost imploded. I think the idea was, not that Xena's core personality was evil, but that she suppressed all the good. But I'd have to listen to the commentary again to see what RT and CM (it was Chris Manheim wasn't it?) thought about that. > Now back to the commentary. Rob told a cute story about the scene where a > naked Gabrielle is hiding behind Xena after their return from Aiden's > world. Ren apparently had minimal clothes on and when Lucy absentmindedly > walked away and Ren was left bearing all to the world much to everyone's > amusement. Rob wanted to use it on the gag reel but Lucy put her foot down > - she obviously wasn't going to have Ren embarrassed. ... thus cruelly disappointing zillions of Gabfans > That brings up one > of the most interesting points about this episode. ROC never was more > beautifully shot that in this episode. Rob went out of his way to make > sure she looked great. At the same time Lucy was getting less and less > attractive as she descended into evil. You know I don't think there are > many stars of TV series that would be content to see a second lead look so > good and be given so much screen time. I think this shows how much Lucy > cared about the show and how much respect she had for Ren as a colleague. Hmm, but then, Lucy always was prepared to look bad (i.e. unflattering) in the service of the character. Which is not to say she didn't 'protect' her character. From what I've heard, Lucy was quite conscious of what Xena would or wouldn't do. But she never shrank from Xena looking unflattering so far as appearances were concerned. > Now I have a question. At one point Rob and Chris were talking about Cold > Case and Kathryn Morris. Chris said something to the effect that Morris > was playing character a lot like she played Najar. She then said it works > and Rob agree but then said it gives hope to someone and I can't understand > what he said. Does anyone know what he said? > > CherylA Umm, no. I watched it a few weeks back and, now you mention it, I remember the comments but I couldn't make out quite what he was saying. If you can fill me in on roughly what scene it was in, I'll have another listen and see if I can make it out. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:49:02 +1200 From: nzjester@ihug.co.nz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy the cat and more vermin tales > But right now I am at war with a chipmunk. Did you know > they eat tomatoes? More precisely they take one bite out > of a tomato and leave the rest on the vine. They are also > very brazen. I had a box of tomatoes on my back step for > canning when one of the little sobs climbed into the box > and stole one and ate it right there on the step. > Unfortunately chipmunks are terribly cute and I can't do > much but fume at it. > > Now what has this do with Xena - not a thing that I can > think of. > > CherylA > Well if that chipmonk was to try and steal Xena's tomatos I sure she would skin it and cook it using the tomatoes to make the sauce for it ;-p Chipmonk stew Cipmink on a bed of sliced tomatoes Chipmonk Bolinase Just a few of the recipe's she could try ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:01:22 -0600 From: "abqbeach" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Paradise Found > Now I have a question. At one point Rob and Chris were talking about Cold > Case and Kathryn Morris. Chris said something to the effect that Morris was > playing character a lot like she played Najar. She then said it works and Rob > agree but then said it gives hope to someone and I can't understand what he > said. Does anyone know what he said? Here's what I hear: Rob: So Chris, what other episodes this season did you write? Cause I can't remember. 4th Season. You did Devi, which came after this. Chris: Jeez Rob, they all run together. I'm not kidding .... Convert - that was one of them. Rob: Were you surprised to find that Najara's the star of Cold Case? Chris: Was I ever? My god. And I went back and looked at Convert. She looks exactly the same. And she acts exactly the same. Rob: Yeah, but it worked there. So there's hope for Alex and Bob. At least that's what it sounds like to me. Alex Tydings and Bob Trebor perhaps? angie in NM http://xenawp.org ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:06:43 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Panzar-Davis collectible. I just received the new 5th season chakram from Panzar Davis (it was a very extravagant birthday gift to myself). Anyway it is so nifty - it breaks in half just like the one on the show. It appears to be held together by magnets and just snaps apart and joins together very easily. It is very clever. Now I have more weapons to fight bats with. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:55:36 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Bats > another note of history: some of the fear of bats, i've read, comes > from ancient history in europe, where, because people often didn't > bathe for days or weeks at a time, nor wash their hair, that bats > sometimes dove at people's hair because of all the lovely insects which > got caught in it. > > Of course, we know that's not the reason they love Cheryl so much. Right? Right?! They love me because of my charisma and natural charm and not because have lunch in my hair - humph! CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #221 **************************************