From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #193 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, July 27 2004 Volume 04 : Number 193 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Random thoughts on Ides [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Way ["S. Wilson" ] [chakram-refugees] Spider-Man reviews [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] Catwoman MOSTLY OT [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] Eurotrip [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Catwoman MOSTLY OT [Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/25/2004 4:03:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:24, A. Reddecliffe wrote:rt she played in their > > history both > > > > >How about : > > >Power? Inspiration? Role model? > > > > > >Of these, I think I would choose role model. She had amazon qualities, > > >recognised even from her first meeting with the Cyane and the Amazons in > > >Sin Trade. Once she got through the evil phase she was the embodiment > > > of what many Amazons would like to be. > > > > Hmmm, I would have to (respectfully) disagree on two counts. > > > > The first, role model - well, the Amazons actually didn't seem to take > > much notice of her, much of the time, so while Xena may (on her good days > > :) have > > > > been a worthy role model, the Amazons don't seem to have recognised her > > as such. Possibly the Northern Amazons did a little more than the > > Greek.>> > > Um, in Hooves, Melosa says right off the bat that she knows of Xena. She > speaks admiringly of Xena's battle at Corinth with the Centaurs, as tho any > leader worth her salt would've studied that battle. What I got was the > feeling that the Amazons admired her abilities (warlording > notwithstanding), but felt some distance or tension because Xena did her > own thing. Sort of, "She's the greatest woman warrior we know of and > should be one of us but doesn't want to play with us." > > - Ife Hmm, yes, the Amazons certainly recognised who Xena was in H&H, but it seemed to go downhill from there. I agree, Xena doing her own thing might not have encouraged the Amazons to be overly friendly towards her. They may have wondered what would happen if Xena's interests didn't coincide with theirs. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:09:23 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/25/2004 4:03:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > That was probably part of it too, that you weren't the sort of fumbling > > idiot > > so to speak. > > (ROC contributed part of that last sentence). > > ROC: It all worked out because Gabrielle had to evolve. How could she > > not learn things from Xena? > > > > I think the 'that' makes a subtle difference in emphasis. IMO that was > > all > > (including the 'fumbling idiot') referring to Gabrielle, or her past > > characterisation, not to Amarice. One could doubt Amarice's judgement > > but no way could one call her 'fumbling' - just watch her fight in > > Endgame and in > > the Roman fort in Ides - she's darn near as good as Xena. She knows how > > to look after herself. > > I agree that Lucy was speaking of Gabrielle, but I also believe she was > referring to Amarice in the "fumbling" aspect. She certainly was > "fumbling" in terms of her identity as an Amazon, her ability to be part of > a community, and her judgment about when to talk/run/fight. Yes, she was > good at > self-preservation on her own, but could be a danger to herself and others > when in a group setting. She was a child in many ways -- potentially more > dangerous precisely because of her lethal combat skills. > > -- Ife What do you mean 'fumbling'? Undecided, maybe, and finding her way, but not I think incompetent like Joxer. And she did all right in a group setting in the ambush in Endgame and in saving Gabby from the spear in Endgame and in fighting off the Romans and getting the prisoners out of the fort in Ides.... Of course, we can't ask Lucy what she meant. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:02:29 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Random thoughts on Ides On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/25/2004 4:03:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Someone remarked that one of Amarice's functions was to disagree with > > Eli, since neither Gabs nor Xena were going to. I guess that's one > > reason I like her, somebody has to point out when the holy man is talking > > twaddle. ;) > > And the twaddle certainly reaches a peak in the condemned cell when Gabs > > and > > Eli are congratulating each other on doing nothing. I rather suspect > > the writers put that in just to make more contrast with the Gabspaz.>> > > Hmmm. Do you mean *you* saw it as "twaddle"? I never felt the writers > did, short shrift that it might've gotten compared to the fighting. I > thought it was in character for Eli to act as he did and for Gabs to > emulate him. Remember, when Indrijit captured her and Eli, she almost let > Indrijit win by allowing him into her head. Given that she was weaponless > in Ides, with a group of pacifists, I doubt she thought listening to > hot-headed Amarice would do much. But then, Gabs was weaponless in Ides by her own choice. She didn't need to have been. You can't blame Amarice for that situation. They were up s**t creek and it wasn't Amarice who forgot the paddle ;) And Amarice was _not_ there by her own choice, she was there as ordered by Xena. So if anyone had a right to complain about the situation, I think it was Amarice. Lumbered by Xena's order with 'protecting' a companion who wouldn't lift a finger to help herself. Actually, that's not 100% so - Gabs did help in the fight on the wharf, there were signs that she was starting to become mildly useful again. But that all fell over when she met Eli again. Personally, I tend towards pacifism. I believe in not starting fights. I certainly deplore anyone who beats someone else up 'because they can'. But I also believe in self-defence. If you want to see an illustration of sensible pacifism, watch 'Gandhi'. Eli's brand of it was totally unrealistic and just gets pacifism a bad name. (As does any good idea when pushed to its logical, but absurd, extreme). You notice he never answered Amarice's question "If somebody threatened your mother, would you fight to defend her?" > She had faith in Xena, which Amarice did not. That's ridiculous. Amarice certainly had respect for Xena's abilities, as evidenced by the fact that she wanted to hang out with Xena. One could say, more respect than Gabrielle had, since Gab spent most of Season 4 ragging on Xena about her use of violence. The only way I can interpret that 'faith in Xena' comment is to assume Gabrielle thought "Well, I don't have to lift a finger to help myself, because Xena will always rescue me". (Using, as we have noticed, as much violence as was expedient in the process :) If you call that 'faith', I call it total irresponsibility. But in fact, Gabrielle at that point and for some time past seemed to have more faith in Eli than she did in Xena anyway. Amarice, OTOH, was attempting to do what Xena had ordered her to do - look after Gabrielle. And that most certainly did not include 'having faith in Xena' and doing nothing to defend Gabs - else why would Xena have bothered to send her in the first place? Xena issued that order because she knew Gabs was incapable (had chosen to be incapable) of looking after herself. Or just possibly it was to stop Gabs from following Xena and getting in the way. > Once Xena lay helpless, Gabs didn't see inner peace as a useful > alternative. That's the best euphemism for the Gabspaz I've seen yet But you make it sound like a rational decision. I think it was more instinctive. > As for Eli, in Fallen Angels we learn that his appearing to > nothing included prayers which in fact accomplished more than swords ever > could. Errm, sorry? I didn't notice him doing any praying in Ides. And in fact it wasn't prayer that saved everybody's neck including his, it was Xena and her sword. (And Amarice's sword too, don't forget). None of the twaddle in the condemned cell about 'doing nothing' was going to help anybody. > > Though, Amarice's questioning doesn't stop at Eli and Gabs, she was quite > > ready to question Xena's decisions on occasion. In the past that was > > usually done by Gabrielle, but Gabs' questions were usually dictated by > > morality. Amarice's questions were strictly practical. >. > > And often short-sighted. :-) No, 'practical'. In order to take the long-term view, first you have to survive today. Gabrielle's morality was not exactly a long-term survival-enhancing charactersitc, considering the number of times she dropped Xena in it. > Mind you, I liked that she pointed out the > contradictory (some might say hypocritical) aspects in X&G. However, as > adults, X& G had experienced the "grays" of trying to fight for good > against evil. Amarice still had the black-and-white view of the young -- > unable to appreciate G's courage and wisdom or X's strategic thinking and > choice of violence as a last resort. I should add that "adult" and "young" > are not to me necessarily tied to chronological age. > > -- Ife What 'wisdom' exactly was that? Sitting there like a bump on a log doing _nothing_? Since Gabrielle was about to renounce that sort of thing in no uncertain terms, one can hardly blame Amarice for not instantly appreciating the wisdom of that approach. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:26:56 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:43, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/25/2004 4:03:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Here's the problem. Surely Xena would have realised that, if Caesar > > read 'Gabrielle, Amazon Queen' on the treaty, Caesar would immediately > > see red (or > > rather, see 'Xena'), and that would not only drop Brutus in it, but > > kybosh the treaty. And Caesar would certainly read the treaty before > > signing it. > > > > > > So maybe Xena told Gabs to sign a different name.>> > > I think you may be placing too much importance on that. I haven't rewatched > this ep yet, but I remember Gabs and Brutus discussing Xena's unfriendly > relationship with Caesar. I got the impression Gabs was suggesting the > treaty might carry more weight with Caesar precisely because it would mean > Xena supported it. Here's the transcript (thanks XT): GABRIELLE We want to talk about peace between Xena and Caesar. BRUTUS Impossible. Can you blame Caesar for hating Xena? Look at all she's done to him. GABRIELLE What? BRUTUS Xena interfered in Caesar's war with Pompey. He would have been out of the picture long ago if it wasn't for her. GABRIELLE Xena was trying to stop a war. BRUTUS And why do you think there was a war?! Because of Pompey! He opposes everything Caesar wishes for Rome. Peace, prosperity, a return to the republic. GABRIELLE We really know different Caesars. BRUTUS Caesar doesn't care about the Amazons. What happened was an accident. We can make sure it doesn't happen again. GABRIELLE I can. As queen of the Amazons, I propose a treaty of peace to Caesar. We're not afraid to fight or to die. Guards! BRUTUS You surprise me. I accept. Contingent on Caesar's approval, of course. And Xena. (Brutus is led out) GABRIELLE (To Xena): What do you think? XENA Well he's not Caesar, but he may be the chink in Caesar's armour. Interesting that the discussion started with the 'war' between Caesar and Xena. And that Brutus' acceptance of the treaty was contingent on Caesar's approval (naturally) _and Xena's_. The Amazon treaty almost seemed like an afterthought. > What wasn't clear to me was whether she actually > believed that, or said it soley for Brutus' benefit, in terms of giving him > confidence that the treaty would be honored. I also wasn't clear how much > Xena had to do with the treaty idea -- whether she was simply supporting > Gabs. Either way, what harm could it do, even if Gabrielle signed her name? > If it didn't work, the Amazons wouldn't be in any more jeopardy with > Caesar than they were without Xena's involvement. Brutus might be, but > only if he chose to present it and be concerned about Caesar's response. Well that's the YAXI - that (IMO) Xena certainly intended that the treaty be presented, and that (IMO) she didn't particularly wish to drop Brutus in it. The two are incompatible. > > Xena's goal was pretty simple -- begin working on > > > > >what she saw as Ceasar's weakest link -- Brutus. His hesitancy in > > > telling Ceasar the truth indicates that Xena accomplished this. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > A further point - if Xena knew that reading 'Gabrielle' on the treaty > > would tip Caesar off, then telling Brutus not to mention her would just > > drop Brutus > > even further in it. Now I wouldn't put it past Xena to do that to > > someone, > > > > but I don't think that was her intention with Brutus - he seemed to be an > > honourable opponent, and while Xena was capable of using him, I don't > > think she wished him gratuitous harm. Which would certainly have > > befallen him if > > > > Caesar had asked him about Xena first, then read 'Gabrielle' on the > > treaty...>> > > Remember, Brutus' main mission was to defeat Pompey. I think that's what > Xena's mainly referring to when she says to leave her out of it. Yes, though she puts it pretty strong - "If you wanna stay alive don't mention my name to Caesar. The plan was yours." (snip) > But I believe Xena considered Brutus the "weak link" precisely because he > seemed honorable, because he believed in Caesar as a good leader (not a > megalomanic or despot). She may have thought it more likely that Brutus > would offer the treaty because he cared about avoiding unnecessary wars, > spilling Roman or Amazon blood for nothing. She knew Caesar wouldn't care > about that, which would be Brutus' cue that neither he (as Cheryl pointed > out), nor Romans were as important to Caesar as what Caesar wanted. The > treaty was a test which Caesar flunked in Brutus' eyes and Brutus flunked > in Caesar's eyes. Hmmm, could be. I guess that would make the YAXI go away - that it was a setup by Xena to cause friction between Brutus and Caesar. (Or of course it could just be a slip by the writers who missed the implications of it - but we prefer not to resort to that unless all else fails ;) > Xena knew Brutus was prominent and respected enough that Caesar probably > wouldn't kill him outright, even if Brutus did mention Xena. She gave > Brutus enough rope to distance himself from Caesar, which might weaken > Caesar's position, or to hang himself and/or Caesar. Did she use him? > Yes, to the extent that she figured Caesar wouldn't go for the treaty no > matter how reasonable it was or who signed it. No, because Brutus > already knew of the bad blood between Xena and Caesar, and whether Caesar > might make any connections to "Queen Gabrielle." (I'm assuming Brutus > would've reviewed the signed treaty.) I'm sure he would. > No, in that Brutus would only offer > it for his own motivations -- to spare Romans, to enhance his own rep > and/or to prove to himself that Caesar was the "friend" and leader Brutus > believed in. Xena was interested in the Brutus/Caesar dynamic, which I > believe she figured the treaty would weaken if only because Brutus had the > integrity, naivete and/or ambition to offer it. I think Brutus would feel obliged to present the treaty to Caesar, as a matter of honour, whether he liked the idea or not. But the 'chink in Caesar's armour' comment certainly does indicate that Xena expected some friction between them. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:15:14 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Way *fwoosh* If you have a CD burner, you can make VCDs, which is probably what I'd go with when transferring VHS to digital media, since the signal quality on VHS won't come out any better if you burn to a DVD. VCDs can be played in most DVD players these days, and they're region-free, and you can fit an ep on a standard CD-R. I've been transferring old Xena tapes onto VCD for a while now... just kinda when I get a free moment hither and thither (and I'm finding quite a bit of Season 5 seems to be missing... hmm!). Until I have time to get back to working out which versions of the DVD seasons are the ones to buy (or the ones to avoid), VCDs are cool fer me. YMMV. I think I have the original Way. Haven't gotten around to burning it to VCD just yet. If I recall correctly, it was an old tape and there's one point in the ep with staticky crud. :( Ah well. I think I got it off a Nashville station, too, which means there's a logo on the corner. I got the other seasons out of Tulsa, which had no logo and a crystal clear picture (though the brightness was a little off). Ah... rambling now. :) S.teph *fwoosh* At 09:15 PM 7/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Given some very nice presents for my birthday (55), I actually can burn >DVD's. My learning project was "The Way" as originally aired (uncut?) in >the NYC Metro area. The only problem is that the original tape has >developed a slight "pop hiss" Wish digital today's digital technology >was available back then. The DVD image seems to be about 1.5 gig, so >posting it somewhere is a problem. But the old "record and mail" that has >served us so well in the past is still an option. Let me know. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:47:15 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Spider-Man reviews I've been reading some really interesting reviews of Spiderman II lately. Some excerpts from the review by Sean Smith in Newsweek Magazine of June 28, 2004: To the rest of the world, the superhero symbol of the United States is Superman-broad shouldered, unconflicted, virtually indestructible. For decades, we've preferred to see ourselves that way, too. Spider-Man is none of those things. He's burdened by self-doubt. He wants to do the right thing, but isn't always sure what that is. He's constantly forced to choose between helping others and helping himself. He looks tough, but he's easily injured. In America after September 11, Superman was who we wanted to be. Spider-man was who we were. Peter is forced to choose between heroism and his own happiness, his relationship with Mary Jane in jeopardy all the while. "I was interested in the price of being a good person," Raimi says. "It's a story of someone trying to live up to an ideal and finding it impossible. Peter's living a life out of balance. He thinks he's got to make this journey alone, but he doesn't realize that to love someone is not to shield them from the truth, but to share it with them." "In the past, these kinds of movies tended to focus just on who the next villain was going to be," says studio chairman Amy Pascal. "But the heart of 'Spider-Man' is Peter Parker. It's about making sure his story is as complicated and angst-ridden as it was before if not more so." Stan Lee created Peter Parker with artist Steve Ditko around 1961. "I was trying to shatter every comic-book cliche," says Lee. . ."There had never been a hero who, even though he triumphed over the villain, would never achieve a full victory because there was always something that he regretted or felt guilty about." In fact, that guilt, that belief that he has to do penance as Spider-Man for not preventing the death of his uncle Ben, sets Peter apart from every other Lycra-clad crime fighter. "Revenge is typical motivation, like with Batman," says Chabon. "With Superman, there's a general sense of just wanting to do what's right. With the X-Men, there's fighting for one's own kind. But I don't think there's another comic-book superhero that's as completely driven by trying to pay some debt, a debt that can't be paid, as Spider-Man is." Also, from Stacie Sweet, Student Writer in the July 17, 2004 Fairbanks Daily News Miner: This film offers viewers more insight on Spider-Man's character. Raimi shows us that sometimes even heroes have doubts about who they are and what they want to happen in their life. This helps the audience feel closer to Spider-Man since just about everyone has had these feeling. Raimi does a good job of reminding us that Spider-Man is just human, and helps us to relate to him on a personal level, which will help us forgive him just in case he actually fails. End of excerpts. Now who does that sound like? I got the feeling reading this that perhaps Sam got a hold of Xena season three and season four DVDs and was taking some clues from Rob about the glories of presenting a tormented hero. On the same page and date in the News-Miner, there was also a different review of Spider-Man II by Sarah Brown, another Student Writer: However, the emotion of Spider-Man's unrequited love is taxing and tiresome. After all, Mary Jane isn't the only girl in the world and she is not so peerless that we can't imagine Spider-Man never finding anyone else. Kirsten Dunst's character improved a lot in this movie. In the first, she tended to scream more than was necessary and was not self-reliant. In the second film she thinks more for herself. Now who does THAT sound like? Yup-cr. ;-> KT - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/J0HolB/TM - --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe: From your email program, send a blank message to: flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flawless/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:47:48 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Catwoman MOSTLY OT I've been watching Halle Berry and Sharon Stone make the talk show circuits, showing clips from Catwoman. And boy, I have to say that I find Halle Berry totally unbelievable as a dangerous fighting woman. It's not just the outfit, it's her presentation of the "warrior". I see her portrayal of Catwoman as far more involved with showing the character as sexy as hell. She's playing her like a sex kitten, for crying out loud. I was thinking, is this fair to say since I haven't seen the movie but only clips from it? Possibly not, but the clips, a battle scene between Catwoman and whoever Sharon Stone's character is were picked to showcase the movie and make the audience want to go see it. And it was just laughably bad to me. The director and the actors just don't "get" it, they just don't understand that to be taken seriously, a warrior persona has to be the main "face" of the character when they fight. You can't crouch on the ground during a fight and radiate sexual submission as a way to attain your goal instead of a "Watch out! I'm dangerous!" intimidation attack. You can't send out those conflicting images and not confuse the audience. Either you're a warrior who will knock the snot out of someone or you're a person who uses the old style "women's wiles" to manipulate your stronger antagonist into letting you win. It was the WORST and most idiotic presentation of a female warrior I've ever seen. Of course, we've all been spoiled by Lucy's absolutely dead on presentation of a warrior at work. Sure there were times when Lucy projected sexual teasing and lust-tinged tension when confronting villians--most notably Callisto and Ares. But there's a world of difference with Lucy's understanding, taking on and projecting the face of a warrior--even when she's sexy as hell, compared to the total lack of any menace or any possibility of engendering a frisson of fear in your opponent that Halle failed to project. And while I of course, being the Xenaho I am, would say Lucy's Xena was the best damn female warrior I've ever seen, there are also a number of other actors who pulled this off believably also. Claudia Black in Farscape, the actor who played B'Lanna (? Was that her name--the Klingon in Voyager), Kira in whichever Star Trek thing she was in and of course the women in Flying Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Didn't anybody show Halle these excellent models to study, analyze and imitate? They sure as heck should have. And today I found out it's not just me--this is the review from the New York Times (Didn't write down the author): The character of Catwoman, definitively embodied by Eartha Kitt in the old "Batman" television series and dutifully updated by Michelle Pfeiffer in Tim Burton's "Batman Returns," has always been a camp dominatrix, a persona not entirely suited to Ms. Berry's soft, eager demeanor. She overacts Patience's flaky timidity and then, to compensate, overdoes catwoman's suave self-confidence, swinging her hips and pushing out her lips as if she were trying to attract the amorous attentions of Pepe le Pew. I burst out laughing at this description, especially at the mention of Pepe le Pew. You know, I bet that's who Ted was chanelling when he acted as Jacques Suer in The Xena Scrolls. Not the Pink Panther as we thought, no, it was definitely Pepe le Pew. Now though, with this movie appearing to be so bad, I am presented with a little dilemma. I remember Katherine Fugate saying at a con that if we want movies about females to be successful, we need to support them. We need to go put our butts in the seats and show the studios that stories about women will capture audiences. But do we have to go if it's crap? I just could not bring myself to go see Eurotrip, despite Lawless being in it. I just couldn't stand to support a piggy boy movie. Someone whose opinion I respect posted that she'd had a good time watching it. So I wrote her privately and she assured me that Lucy's bits were worth seeing. I still hesitated, having a real crisis of conscience over it. THEN, I had a bright idea. I could go to the movie theater, buy a ticket for another film and then go see Eurotrip. Thus seeing Lucy but not supporting piggy boy movies. Of course, the day I had my brilliant idea, was the day AFTER Eurotrip had left the movie theater. (And yes, we only have one movie multiplex here.) However, I can use this idea for Catwoman. I could go buy a ticket for that movie and then go watch another. BUT I don't think I want to do that. If someone's going to make a movie about a strong, dangerous woman, then dammit, get it right. If you make crap, I just don't want to support it. We must maintain our standards, no? KT - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/J0HolB/TM - --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe: From your email program, send a blank message to: flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flawless/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:48:23 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Eurotrip Speaking of Eurotrip, I was thrilled to find clips of Lucy's part on Mary D's site which I actually managed to download. Yay for me! I was very pleasantly surprised to see how good Lucy was in it. She totally cracked me up. She actually ACTED as a person who happens to work as a dominatrix. She didn't just posture herself with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge looka me pretending to be a madam" outlook that many people would have used. She presented a real person, not just a cardboard stereotype. It was a multi-layered presentation. There were times when she was "acting" as a double layer within the role in terms of presenting the dominatrix persona that the customer expected to see. She played with the boy in the stereotypic manner, as when she murmured "I know", so sympathetically when the boy said in agreement with her about growing up in sexually straight laced America, "It was horrible". She was also playing a woman playing the customer's fantasy when she talked about the safe word and how he needed it so she wouldn't stop when he didn't really want her to stop. Expectively and surficially seducing him into an anticipatory arousal rather than actually feeling the sexual frisson inside herself of her own arousal. I loved the way she read the line, "Until I hear the safe word. . .I will not stop." The hesitation and the sudden focus on the warning part of the message was purely from the same well that some of Xena's menace came from. But then we had some bits where Lucy was acting just as a person. I saw this in how she looked confused during the sex scene when the boy was racked up and trying to say the safe word, "Did you say, 'Fluggacamkremer?' When the boy (who looked somewhat like a young Rob Tapert to me-ACK!) said he had, I liked how she played saying the friendly, concerned warning, "Are you suure?" Very maternal, very aware of how foolish some of these young boys can be. Again, this was acting as a real person would, not as many people might play the madam in an shallow, fake over the top, cardboard presentation. This double layers of playing roles within playing roles reminded me of the times she played Meg playing Leah or Leah playing Xena-just one character appearing inside another one all at the same time. But I'm much happier having gotten it free from Mary D's site without having had to support dumb obnoxious movies like these with my entrance fee at a theater. KT And wasn't it nice to hear those guys say, "We all agreed, everyone of us all agreed, that Lucy Lawless was the coolest human being we'd all ever met." - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/J0HolB/TM - --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe: From your email program, send a blank message to: flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flawless/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:26:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Catwoman MOSTLY OT Hi, KT posted: > Farscape, the actor who played B'Lanna (? Was that > her name--the Klingon > in Voyager), Kira in whichever Star Trek thing she > was in Deep Space Nine. :) I would also add Terry Farrell (Dax) to this list ... she could be downright scary at times. > We > need to go put our butts in the seats and show the > studios that stories > about women will capture audiences. But do we have > to go if it's crap? No. We have no obligation to support crap just because it has a woman in it. If we do this, then we will give the studios the impression that we will accept anything they want to shove down our throats, just because it has a grrl in it. Casting our vote for quality at the box office is the only way to show the studios that we won't stand for crap. Precisely as you said, we must maintain our standards. > I just could not bring myself to go see Eurotrip, > despite Lawless being in > it. I just couldn't stand to support a piggy boy > movie. This is precisely why I didn't go see it, either. (Thanks for the tip about the clips on MaryD's site, though -- I will have to check those out.) Meredith __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:11:40 -0400 From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Catwoman MOSTLY OT At 12:26 PM 7/27/2004 -0700, Meredith wrote: >No. We have no obligation to support crap just >because it has a woman in it. If we do this, then we >will give the studios the impression that we will >accept anything they want to shove down our throats, >just because it has a grrl in it. Right on! LeeD ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:55:27 -0400 From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Catwoman MOSTLY OT A few comments, and a lot of snippage At 10:47 AM 7/27/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I've been watching Halle Berry and Sharon Stone make the talk show >circuits, showing clips from Catwoman. > >And boy, I have to say that I find Halle Berry totally unbelievable as a >dangerous fighting woman. It's not just the outfit, it's her presentation >of the "warrior". I see her portrayal of Catwoman as far more involved >with showing the character as sexy as hell. She's playing her like a sex >kitten, for crying out loud. From what I can remember, Catwoman was a "sex kitten" even in the comic books (and I'm old enough to remember them from the original paper, although also old enough for those memories to be clouded). I'd have to say Ms. Berry is playing "true to the character" >The director and the actors just don't "get" it, They "get it". "Highlander, The Raven" got it. At least in terms of what sells. >they just don't >understand that to be taken seriously, a warrior persona has to be the >main "face" of the character when they fight. >You can't crouch on the >ground during a fight and radiate sexual submission as a way to attain >your goal instead >of a "Watch out! I'm dangerous!" intimidation attack. You can't send out >those conflicting images and not confuse the audience. Either you're a >warrior who will knock the snot out of someone or you're a person who uses >the old style "women's wiles" to manipulate your stronger antagonist into >letting you win. It was the WORST and most idiotic presentation of a >female warrior I've ever seen. > >Of course, we've all been spoiled by Lucy's absolutely dead on >presentation of a warrior at work. Sure there were times when Lucy >projected sexual teasing and lust-tinged tension when confronting >villians--most notably Callisto and Ares. But there's a world of >difference with Lucy's understanding, taking on and projecting the face of >a warrior--even when she's sexy as hell, compared to the total lack of any >menace or any possibility of engendering a frisson of fear in your >opponent that Halle failed to project. > >And while I of course, being the Xenaho I am, would say Lucy's Xena was >the best damn female warrior I've ever seen, there are also a number of >other actors who pulled this off believably also. Claudia Black in >Farscape, the actor who played B'Lanna (? Was that her name--the Klingon >in Voyager), Kira in whichever Star Trek thing she was in and of course >the women in Flying Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Didn't anybody show Halle these >excellent models to study, analyze and imitate? They sure as heck should >have. > > >And today I found out it's not just me--this is the review from the New >York Times (Didn't write down the author): > >The character of Catwoman, definitively embodied by Eartha Kitt in the old >"Batman" television series and dutifully updated by Michelle Pfeiffer in >Tim Burton's "Batman Returns," has always been a camp dominatrix, a >persona not entirely suited to Ms. Berry's soft, eager demeanor. She >overacts Patience's flaky timidity and then, to compensate, overdoes >catwoman's suave self-confidence, swinging her hips and pushing out her >lips as if she were trying to attract the amorous attentions of Pepe le >Pew. > > >I burst out laughing at this description, especially at the mention of >Pepe le Pew. You know, I bet that's who Ted was chanelling when he acted >as Jacques Suer in The Xena Scrolls. Not the Pink Panther as we thought, >no, it was definitely Pepe le Pew. > >Now though, with this movie appearing to be so bad, I am presented with a >little dilemma. I remember Katherine Fugate saying at a con that if we >want movies about females to be successful, we need to support them. We >need to go put our butts in the seats and show the studios that stories >about women will capture audiences. But do we have to go if it's crap? > >I just could not bring myself to go see Eurotrip, despite Lawless being in >it. I just couldn't stand to support a piggy boy movie. Someone whose >opinion I respect posted that she'd had a good time watching it. So I >wrote her privately and she assured me that Lucy's bits were worth seeing. >I still hesitated, having a real crisis of conscience over it. THEN, I had >a bright idea. I could go to the movie theater, buy a ticket for another >film and then go see Eurotrip. Thus seeing Lucy but not supporting piggy >boy movies. Of course, the day I had my brilliant idea, was the day AFTER >Eurotrip had left the movie theater. (And yes, we only have one movie >multiplex here.) > >However, I can use this idea for Catwoman. I could go buy a ticket for >that movie and then go watch another. BUT I don't think I want to do that. >If someone's going to make a movie about a strong, dangerous woman, then >dammit, get it right. If you make crap, I just don't want to support it. >We must maintain our standards, no? > >KT > > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> >Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. >Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! >http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/J0HolB/TM >--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >To unsubscribe: From your email program, send a blank message >to: flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flawless/ > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= LeeD ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #193 **************************************