From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #191 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, July 26 2004 Volume 04 : Number 191 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Random thoughts on Ides [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. ["Xena Torres" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:50:35 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:52, Sarah Anne Packard wrote: > > Hmmm. Well, Varia was only present for two (or was it three?) eps, > > besides > > She was in at least 4 that I can think of off the top of my head...Coming > Home, Path of Vengeance, Dangerous Prey, To Helicon and Back...are you > thinking of Marga maybe? I most certainly am _not_ thinking of Marga, I liked Marga and she had the bearing of an Amazon Queen IMO. Varia didn't. > > she was an Amazon Queen.... too senior to really show the youthful > > naivete that early Gabs or Amarice did. > > She wasn't an Amazon Queen to start with (Marga was), she became one > later...and I recall her "youthful naivete" getting her in quite a lot of > trouble. > > -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- If not a queen, in Coming Home she was certainly Marga's deputy leader. The difference was that Amarice had no authority and no official responsibility so she could afford to be young and impetuous without any major hassles arising. Varia, OTOH, had a position of responsibility so she couldn't just go and do what the heck she liked - such as taking off to hang out with Xena and Gabs like Amarice for instance. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:26:09 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snip) > > Remember Xena tells Brutus not to let Caesar know she had a hand in the > > defeat of Pompey: > > XENA If you wanna stay alive don't mention my name to Caesar. The plan > > was yours. > > > > Well, she must have known the treaty signed by Gabs would be a dead > > giveaway. > > (So must Brutus if he thought about it). Caesar knows very well who > > Gabs is. > > Did Xena just forget? But she doesn't forget things like that! > > > > Or did Gabby just sign with her title, not her name? That would be a > > very odd way to sign a document though, normally such things would be > > signed with > > > > both name and title. > > > > Suggestions, anybody? ;) > > As to Caesar, there's no reason he'd connect Gabs with "the Amazon Queen," > unless Brutus had confirmed that Xena was in the area. After all, she > seldom funtioned as the Queen or stayed with the Amazons. It's also > possible Caesar didn't know Ephiny had been killed, so assumed she or > someone else was the leader. I didn't get the impression he cared about > Amazon politics anyway - only whether or not these nameless, inconvenient > women stood between him and what he wanted. My point was, that *if* Caesar had read the treaty, (and if Gabrielle had signed it with her name, which is almost invariable I think), he would have known instantly who the Amazon Queen was and suspected - well, with his Xenaparanoia, been instantly certain - that Xena had a hand in things. Which is precisely what Xena warned Brutus _not_ to tell Caesar. > I think Xena/Gabs left it up to Brutus as to what or how much he would > reveal. The fact that he didn't name Gabs suggested that he was heeding > Xena's cautions about that, possibly harboring his own suspicions. Possibly that, but more likely just being ceremonious - because he must have realised that Caesar would know Gabrielle was involved as soon as Caesar read the treaty (which is what he was expecting Caesar to do). > If Gabs > did sign her name, maybe Brutus wanted to see how Caesar would react, once > he'd read the treaty. But Caesar was slick in burning it first. At that > point, he may have been less concerned about Xena -- a known enemy -- than > about whether Brutus had become a snake in Caesar's lair. Yes, I thought his question to Brutus reeked of suspicion. But he seemed to accept Brutus's answer about Xena not being in the area. That answer, by the way, was decided on by Brutus _after_ he saw Caesar burning the treaty. > Quite possibly all that was left purposely vague to set us up for future > events. It left us guessing about Brutus' motivations, as well as about > whether Caesar was "playing him" -- suspicious of him and/or of Xena and > Gabrielle's involvement. I liked that Xena gave Brutus a "heads up," let > Gabs have a chance for a peaceful resolution, Here's the problem. Surely Xena would have realised that, if Caesar read 'Gabrielle, Amazon Queen' on the treaty, Caesar would immediately see red (or rather, see 'Xena'), and that would not only drop Brutus in it, but kybosh the treaty. And Caesar would certainly read the treaty before signing it. So maybe Xena told Gabs to sign a different name. > yet basically figured none of > that would really matter, if Caesar was determined to eliminate anyone on > his path to domination. Xena's goal was pretty simple -- begin working on > what she saw as Ceasar's weakest link -- Brutus. His hesitancy in telling > Ceasar the truth indicates that Xena accomplished this. > > -- Ife A further point - if Xena knew that reading 'Gabrielle' on the treaty would tip Caesar off, then telling Brutus not to mention her would just drop Brutus even further in it. Now I wouldn't put it past Xena to do that to someone, but I don't think that was her intention with Brutus - he seemed to be an honourable opponent, and while Xena was capable of using him, I don't think she wished him gratuitous harm. Which would certainly have befallen him if Caesar had asked him about Xena first, then read 'Gabrielle' on the treaty... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:56:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:24, A. Reddecliffe wrote: > > This episode bolsters my belief that Xena was one of the unacknowledged > > forces behind the Amazon nation. (I'm looking for the right word > > though, and 'force' isn't it. 'Influence' is too vague and not strong > > enough. 'Creator' may be too strong and implies a positive result which, > > as we know > > from Sin Trade flashbacks, was not always the case. Anyway, the Amazons > > never fully acknowledged the major part she played in their history both > > for > > good and evil which was, arguably, greater than that of any Amazon, even > > including Alti.) > > How about : > Power? Inspiration? Role model? > > Of these, I think I would choose role model. She had amazon qualities, > recognised even from her first meeting with the Cyane and the Amazons in > Sin Trade. Once she got through the evil phase she was the embodiment of > what many Amazons would like to be. Hmmm, I would have to (respectfully) disagree on two counts. The first, role model - well, the Amazons actually didn't seem to take much notice of her, much of the time, so while Xena may (on her good days :) have been a worthy role model, the Amazons don't seem to have recognised her as such. Possibly the Northern Amazons did a little more than the Greek. But secondly, I really didn't mean 'role model'. I meant, more, a person who had a profound influence on Amazon history. 'Father of the nation' sort of thing. Well, 'mother of the nation'. Or maybe 'destroyer and rebuilder of the nation'. I can best describe it by analogy with Polynesian mythology - they had their 'gods' who created an island or a tribe (frequently by fishing them out of the sea). Very likely such 'gods' may have been real people - leaders - whose exploits got mythologised with time. In that limited sense only (and leaving out all the supernatural powers etc that we ascribe to gods) Xena could be said to be a 'god' of the Amazons. Bearing in mind too, of course, that gods weren't always benevolent ;) Or in Greek terms, I think such persons became mythical 'heroes' (who were of course closely allied to gods). Hmm, I still haven't found quite the right word. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:00:22 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Endgame On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:57, abqbeach wrote: > cr wrote: > > Just got as far as Endgame in my viewing of the Season 4 DVD's. > > [snip] > > > Anyway, I was a bit disappointed that in the interview with Steve Sears > > and > > Eric Gruendemann, they never mentioned Amarice. I would have been > > interested to know why she was introduced. (snip) > Check out Lucy and Renee's dvd commentary on Ides of March: > > Renee: I remember being so frustrated that I couldn't have any fights. > > Lucy: Oh, because you were being peaceful. Imagine how frustrated I was > that you weren't doing any fights? Because you loved them, and I hated > them. > > Lucy: Another advantage, writing wise, to have Amarice come in there is > that we now, again, had a young, stupid person who needed to learn and make > mistakes. The writers, producers and you [Renee] got sick of Gabrielle > being that character, so she helped a lot. That was probably part of it > too. You weren't ... > > Renee: ... the sort of fumbling idiot. It all worked out because Gabrielle > had to evolve. How could she not learn things from Xena? > > angie in NM > http://xenawp.org Yeah, I just listened to that. Still doesn't completely answer my curiosity about what the producers intended for Amarice, though. The way I heard it, it ran: LL: And another advantage writing-wise to have Amarice come in here is that we now again had a young stupid... ROC: who needed to learn LL: ... person who needed to learn and make mistakes so... the writers, producers and you got sick of Gabrielle being that character so she helped a lot.... That was probably part of it too, that you weren't the sort of fumbling idiot so to speak. (ROC contributed part of that last sentence). ROC: It all worked out because Gabrielle had to evolve. How could she not learn things from Xena? I think the 'that' makes a subtle difference in emphasis. IMO that was all (including the 'fumbling idiot') referring to Gabrielle, or her past characterisation, not to Amarice. One could doubt Amarice's judgement but no way could one call her 'fumbling' - just watch her fight in Endgame and in the Roman fort in Ides - she's darn near as good as Xena. She knows how to look after herself. IMO, of course. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:55:27 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Random thoughts on Ides Just watched the DVD of Ides, the interviews and the commentary by LL and ROC. A few things struck me... Hudson is as good as ever (as everyone commented). LL (I think it was) commented that she looked like Puck. Certainly a very different look from the long-haired goddess of fire and rockslides. To me, she looked much more innocent in that white toga. But treacherous also. I know that's contradictory. The director made the most of that contrast, though. Callisto playfully catching snowflakes while Xena and Gabrielle are dragged off to their death. Of course, she looks absolutely gorgeous balancing the chacky on her finger (it's the first still you see when you open the DVD set, and well chosen). I noticed (partly because ROC pointed it out in the commentary) how subtly her face changes when she's trying to talk Xena round, outside the fort. Her expression goes from innocent and persuasive to anger, but so subtly you can hardly see her move a muscle. Brilliant! Back to the start - I loved those early moments when she sliced at Gabs and Xena with her sword in Hell and it just went right through them. Xena's expression of amusement was beautifully done. Neat echo of that later on under Caesar's window when Xena sliced at Callisto and the same happened. There was a nice little reversal early in the ep when the bounty hunters attacked Xena and co - XENA So, it's come to this. Caesar wants me out of the way so bad he's willing to deplete his fortune to do it. Hmm. I think it's time I put an end to this feud between Caesar and me. AMARICE You're not gonna try to make peace with that slime, are you? (The first time I saw the ep I groaned at that, it was just exactly the sort of thing Xena had been doing for two seasons...) XENA No. I'm going to kill him. (Yay! At last! Go the Warrior Princess! ) I love it when TPTB do that to me. :) Braca - oops, I mean Brutus. Obviously David Franklin was a big hit with ROC. I think he makes a very good Brutus and he does look, IMO, typically Roman. He looks as if he has a conscience, but as if he can be ruthless when the occasion calls for it. Perfect for the part. I think he could have played a very good Caesar, too - just tone down the conscience and emphasise the air of determination. (Every time I see Brutus now, I think Lieutenant Braca, from Farscape, in which part he was equally good). Someone remarked that one of Amarice's functions was to disagree with Eli, since neither Gabs nor Xena were going to. I guess that's one reason I like her, somebody has to point out when the holy man is talking twaddle. ;) And the twaddle certainly reaches a peak in the condemned cell when Gabs and Eli are congratulating each other on doing nothing. I rather suspect the writers put that in just to make more contrast with the Gabspaz. Though, Amarice's questioning doesn't stop at Eli and Gabs, she was quite ready to question Xena's decisions on occasion. In the past that was usually done by Gabrielle, but Gabs' questions were usually dictated by morality. Amarice's questions were strictly practical. I'm not a big connoisseur of fights, but the fight in the fort that preceded the Gabspaz was well choreographed (LL and ROC thought so too) and I couldn't help noticing that Amarice was darn near as good as Xena. I don't think we've had such a competent supporting character turn up - at least, not on Xena's side - since M'Lila. Incidentally, Gab's score in the Gabspaz (I counted carefully) was eight down. (I say 'down' rather than 'dead', we tend to loosely assume that anyone knocked down in a fight is dead but of course that's not necessarily the case). Amarice's score in the preceding fight was at least seven (possibly more but her fight was intercut with Xena so we didn't see the whole thing). Xena, as befits the senior partner, accounted for (at least) thirteen. Interesting then that Gabs' eight are given so much prominence, but I guess on account of her Way of Peace and her previous score of one (Meridian), it acquires greater significance. That is, I guess it's just one. I suppose one could add in Hope (twice), but then Hope didn't die, twice. This is one of those anomalies that keep cropping up in the Xenaverse. One could, I suppose, also credit Gabrielle with complicity in the death of Alti. I don't know if there are any more. As has been pointed out, "in reality" the roadsides of Greece are probably littered with corpses who got whacked round the head with the Gabstaff and crawled off to die from brain damage in the nearest ditch, but for the purposes of the ongoing story I guess we're supposed to ignore them And then we have the culmination of The Vision. You know, until Callisto chackied Xena in the fort, I really thought Xena was going to pull off the rescue and falsify the vision. Or at least, I figured it was 50-50 odds. I've rabbited on before about how competent and unhurried and impersonal the execution squad was. No one to threaten, no one to gloat (except Callisto), just get the job done right and knock off for tea. Chilling. Very cool. I've also ranted on about that incongruous 'touched by an angel' bit that was added (obviously as an afterthought) to 'lighten' the ending. It really was an afterthought because LL or ROC commented it was filmed during Fallen Angel. That's twice RT has 'lightened' an ending, once in Ides and once in FIN - Director's Cut, and both times I wish he hadn't. Though the end of FIN-DC only appears deficient by comparison with the original - that is, if I hadn't seen the original I wouldn't be (slightly) disappointed by the change in DC. Ides, OTOH, struck me as 'wrong' as soon as I saw it. It also set up Fallen Angel which I honestly don't care for - X & G dying and going to heaven is much too Christian for my liking. It's also a big break with the previous cosmology of the show. I'm much happier with Olympus. And while Demon Callisto was fun, she ended up being destroyed and turning into wimpy Angel Callisto. Since people on crosses could take days to die, it would have been much less contrived if Ides had closed with Xena and Gabs just hanging there, then in the first ep of Season 5, Joxer, Amarice and Eli could have rescued them - *exactly* as they did, but still alive - Eli could have done his healing trick with the nail holes, and carry on from there. IMO. But anyway, Ides was a great ep. As far as I was concerned, after all Xena's dithering and uncertainty in Season 4, in Endgame and Ides she was back on track and knew what she was doing. She might have ended up dead, but at least she wasn't dithering about it. And of course we had Callisto back, and a promising new arrival in Amarice. Only one missing was Ares. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:52:20 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. I'd have to vote that Gabs just signed it "The Queen of the Amazons" BECAUSE she handed the position over at Ephiny's funeral, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before they would have gotten a reply from Caesar (if he had bothered to send one). It seems silly to sign her name, when she knew she wouldn't be there to see it through, because she KNEW she wouldn't be staying. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: cr >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. >Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:26:09 +1200 > >On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > >(snip) > > > > Remember Xena tells Brutus not to let Caesar know she had a hand in >the > > > defeat of Pompey: > > > XENA If you wanna stay alive don't mention my name to Caesar. The >plan > > > was yours. > > > > > > Well, she must have known the treaty signed by Gabs would be a dead > > > giveaway. > > > (So must Brutus if he thought about it). Caesar knows very well who > > > Gabs is. > > > Did Xena just forget? But she doesn't forget things like that! > > > > > > Or did Gabby just sign with her title, not her name? That would be a > > > very odd way to sign a document though, normally such things would be > > > signed with > > > > > > both name and title. > > > > > > Suggestions, anybody? ;) > > > > As to Caesar, there's no reason he'd connect Gabs with "the Amazon >Queen," > > unless Brutus had confirmed that Xena was in the area. After all, she > > seldom funtioned as the Queen or stayed with the Amazons. It's also > > possible Caesar didn't know Ephiny had been killed, so assumed she or > > someone else was the leader. I didn't get the impression he cared about > > Amazon politics anyway - only whether or not these nameless, >inconvenient > > women stood between him and what he wanted. > >My point was, that *if* Caesar had read the treaty, (and if Gabrielle had >signed it with her name, which is almost invariable I think), he would have >known instantly who the Amazon Queen was and suspected - well, with his >Xenaparanoia, been instantly certain - that Xena had a hand in things. > >Which is precisely what Xena warned Brutus _not_ to tell Caesar. > > > I think Xena/Gabs left it up to Brutus as to what or how much he would > > reveal. The fact that he didn't name Gabs suggested that he was heeding > > Xena's cautions about that, possibly harboring his own suspicions. > >Possibly that, but more likely just being ceremonious - because he must >have >realised that Caesar would know Gabrielle was involved as soon as Caesar >read >the treaty (which is what he was expecting Caesar to do). > > > If Gabs > > did sign her name, maybe Brutus wanted to see how Caesar would react, >once > > he'd read the treaty. But Caesar was slick in burning it first. At >that > > point, he may have been less concerned about Xena -- a known enemy -- >than > > about whether Brutus had become a snake in Caesar's lair. > >Yes, I thought his question to Brutus reeked of suspicion. But he seemed >to >accept Brutus's answer about Xena not being in the area. That answer, by >the way, was decided on by Brutus _after_ he saw Caesar burning the treaty. > > > Quite possibly all that was left purposely vague to set us up for future > > events. It left us guessing about Brutus' motivations, as well as about > > whether Caesar was "playing him" -- suspicious of him and/or of Xena and > > Gabrielle's involvement. I liked that Xena gave Brutus a "heads up," >let > > Gabs have a chance for a peaceful resolution, > >Here's the problem. Surely Xena would have realised that, if Caesar read >'Gabrielle, Amazon Queen' on the treaty, Caesar would immediately see red >(or >rather, see 'Xena'), and that would not only drop Brutus in it, but kybosh >the treaty. And Caesar would certainly read the treaty before signing it. > >So maybe Xena told Gabs to sign a different name. > > > yet basically figured none of > > that would really matter, if Caesar was determined to eliminate anyone >on > > his path to domination. Xena's goal was pretty simple -- begin working >on > > what she saw as Ceasar's weakest link -- Brutus. His hesitancy in >telling > > Ceasar the truth indicates that Xena accomplished this. > > > > -- Ife > >A further point - if Xena knew that reading 'Gabrielle' on the treaty would >tip Caesar off, then telling Brutus not to mention her would just drop >Brutus >even further in it. Now I wouldn't put it past Xena to do that to >someone, >but I don't think that was her intention with Brutus - he seemed to be an >honourable opponent, and while Xena was capable of using him, I don't think >she wished him gratuitous harm. Which would certainly have befallen him >if >Caesar had asked him about Xena first, then read 'Gabrielle' on the >treaty... > >cr >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= _________________________________________________________________ Designer Mail isn't just fun to send, it's fun to receive. Use special stationery, fonts and colors. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN. Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:01:45 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: End Game > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:23:18 +1200 > From: cr > Subject: [chakram-refugees] Minor YAXI in Endgame. > > Discussing Endgame on another list, there's a little YAXI that's surfaced in > it. Yep, we've found a new YAXI!! 8-) > > I was pondering whether Gabrielle's offer of a peace treaty was genuine, or a > move by Xena to show Brutus how megalomaniacal Caesar was. Did she know > he'd burn the treaty? Or was she having a bob each way, if he accepted it, > it helped the Amazons, if he burnt it, it unsettled Brutus. (No YAXIs so > far :). > I think the treaty was a ploy. Brutus was certain through out the episode that Caesar was honorable and only wanted peace in the empire. With the treaty Xena is showing Brutus what Caesar's real motivations are - power - not Rome's power but his own. Brutus is really proud of that treaty - it guarantees peace between Rome and the Amazons which would be good for Rome. When Caesar burns it without even reading it Brutus learns two things about Caesar. The first that Caesar is only concerned about his own power - he wants the Amazons under his rule and he doesn't care a whit about the good of the nation. Secondly he learns what Caesar actually thinks about him personally - Caesar has no regard at all for Brutus's opinions or his accomplishments. He rudely and arrogantly dismisses Brutus efforts - he doesn't even bother to look at the treat Brutus has negotiated. This is the beginning of Brutus's eventual betrayal of Caesar. It is said every murder begins with an insult and here Caesar insults Brutus by dismissing his judgment as unimportant. Now of course if Caesar had accepted the treaty then Xena would have been wrong about Caesar but the Amazons would have been safe. As for Gabrielle's name being on the treaty maybe Caesar never would have connected Queen Gabrielle with that annoying blond who follows Xena around. Maybe Caesar didn't even know her name - I don't think he ever called her by name. Gabrielle would have just the kind of person would have flown under Caesar's radar. She was never a threat to him or so he thinks so he probably never gave her a second thought. He would have never thought of her as a queen and certainly never as a queen of a nation of warriors. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #191 **************************************