From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #178 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, July 7 2004 Volume 04 : Number 178 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Season 4 DVD [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy on Entertainers with Byron Allen [IfeRae@aol.] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Family Affair and Sickness and In Hell, etc. [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Akemi and Anokin [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Akemi and Anokin [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Lucy in San Fran Aug 2 ["Creation (Sharon Delaney)" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:07:44 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Season 4 DVD On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:20, KTL wrote: > > On the other hand, Xena's rampage is at least understandable, given > > Caesar's betrayal of her, his attempt to crucify her, the murder of > > Xena's friend M'Lila by Caesar's thugs.... Xena's reaction may be > > disproportionate but it just demonstrates that she is, after all, human. > > Xena lists are full of people who react in disproportionate fashion > > (though on a more modest scale) to a TV show, and I suspect most of them > > are human (though I sometimes have sneaking doubts about KT..... :) > > > > cr > > Well, do you at least consider me mammalian? > > GROWL > > KT > above amoeba Umm, KT, after just reading your delightfully uninhibited rant about Solan, Hope and the Gabdrag, I think we have to class you much higher than amoebae. Somewhere up with the higher carnivores, possibly. Umm, how about tigers? ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 02:40:13 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy on Entertainers with Byron Allen In a message dated 7/5/2004 1:34:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hjjh@mail.utexas.edu writes: > A search for 'Lucy Lawless' on tvguide.com came up with-- > Saturday, July 10 at 9:00 p.m. and Sunday, the 11th at 5:00 p.m. (Central) > on Kickin' It on the UPN channel. > Thank you. Means I've go another shot at it. What I don't understand is why we get such different things when we do searches on zap2it, TVGuide or YahooTV. I thought maybe it was because of my zip code, but I couldn't get anything on this show no matter what I tried. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 02:40:09 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD In a message dated 7/5/2004 6:30:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Cyan had beat Alti in the brainiac > olympics. (I think it was Vicki who once said at a con that they looked > like they were in a passing gas contest in that scene.) Why would Xena not > immediately switch to following the winner? Sure, Alti may promise her > power, but Cyan has more than Alti. And power and skills she didn't have > drew Evil Xena like nothing else did. >> At this point, Xena doesn't believe life with the Amazons is for her. As she tells Cyane, she already considers herself a murderer, beyond turning back. Power or no power, Cyane would've required some behavior adjustment. Plus, for all we know, Xena did play along with Cyane long enough to pick Cyane's brain. She didn't need Cyane after that. Alti, on the other hand, not only offered powers, but liked Xena just the way she was. Sure, there were strings attached, but Xena didn't see them costing her anything besides a little bloodletting. > > AND Cyan had beat the snot out of Xena. Yet suddenly Xena can just kill > her, fighting in the same environment? Even with the tricks, how come Xena > is now the stronger one? So strong that she takes out the whole freaken > tribe? Phhhhfffft. > I think this was to indicate Xena's thirst for knowledge and super ability to master new skills. Xena didn't particularly care for Cyane beating her that first time, being dismissive and acting superior. I think she was highly motivated to prove she didn't need the Amazons and could beat them at their own game. She had the element of surprise on her side. She put away her knife and said she'd fight Cyane fair and square, then proceeded to use one of those spikey traps (possibly put there by the Amazons) to impale Cyane. I don't see how what she did to them was any more improbable than her other victories. It reminded me of how she defeated Najara -- someone else who'd beaten her. She used Najara's weakness (her fondness for Gabrielle) to distract the zealot. Similarly, I think she used Cyane's trust to catch Cyne off guard and utterly unprepared for Xena to betray the Amazons with their own tactics. Xena was no fool when it came to acknowledging who was "a pretty tough girl." She didn't leave anything to chance or delude herself about her abilities when it came to fighting an equal or possibly superior opponent. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:06:16 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:13, KTL wrote: > > > maybe something ended up on the cutting room floor. To me, Xena's mass > > Amazoncide looked more like gratuitous 'because I can' - 'Alti offered me > > a better deal'. > > And you realize how bogus that was? Cyan had beat Alti in the brainiac > olympics. (I think it was Vicki who once said at a con that they looked > like they were in a passing gas contest in that scene.) Why would Xena not > immediately switch to following the winner? Sure, Alti may promise her > power, but Cyan has more than Alti. And power and skills she didn't have > drew Evil Xena like nothing else did. > > AND Cyan had beat the snot out of Xena. Yet suddenly Xena can just kill > her, fighting in the same environment? Even with the tricks, how come Xena > is now the stronger one? So strong that she takes out the whole freaken > tribe? Phhhhfffft. True. My guess (well, a rationalisation really) is that, first, Alti had been doing some persuasive talking to Xena behind the scenes. And, second, the rest of the tribe were obviously not in Cyane's class. But as to how Xena took out Cyane - lots of practice, maybe? (I hesitate to suggest that Xena may have been getting a bit of supernatural assistance from Alti, but I suppose it's possible). > > (XT, KT - either of you got any theories about this? :) > > Uh...no. I never give my opinion. Yeah, we'd noticed. > > > That is, IMO, quite unlike Xena's reaction to Caesar's betrayal in > > Destiny, which was quite sufficient and needed no other external > > influence to send her off the rails. > > > > cr > > Well now, it was M'Lila's death that drove her off the rails. There's one > parallel. BUT again, M'Lila was strong, powerful and had things to teach > Xena. Unlike the whimpering little Anokin. > > KT Oh, agreed. Anokin was a nothing. M'Lila was a great fighter in her own right, at least up in Iolaus's class. That's one missed opportunity I'm really sad about - I would have loved to see much much more of M'Lila. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:12:31 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Family Affair and Sickness and In Hell, etc. On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:51, KTL wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > > Snip snip snip > > > In Family Affair when Hope is pretending that Xena beat her so Gabby's > > family would turn Xena out did you notice the injuries on Hope are the > > same Gabby had after the gabdrag. It gives that little smirk Hope has a > > little more oomph. After all she not only manages to turn the family > > against Xena but is able to remind Xena that she hasn't always treated > > her friend very well. > > Oh that darn Xena. Just because Gabrielle in her thick-headedness led > Xena's only child to slaughter, she has to go all warlordy and try to get > vengeance for his death. TCH! (snip of incredible rant from KT) Oooh KT, I'm lost in admiration. "Dammit, I like it!" (There's a certain irony in that quote, btw...:) I've carefully stashed your magnificent peroration away for use next time I'm cornered by rampant Gabfans. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:59:29 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Akemi and Anokin On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:50, KTL wrote: > > cr wrote: > > > I don't agree with you about Akemi's death. Xena was all cut up about > > > Akemi's death. She was mourning the kid. Why would she want revenge? > > > (Of course, at that time she didn't know about the 40,000 barbecued > > > Higuchians, but even if she had, why would she want revenge?) She > > > didn't at > > > the time it happened, she didn't 35 years later in the 'now' of Friend > > > in Need. > > Cheryl answered: > > Because she was all cut up about it. Now I'm thinking she has time to > > brood about Akemi's death. Akemi made her feel things she probably > > hasn't felt for a long time - if not love at least a very deep affection > > for some one. Akemi then goes and dies on her. Not only dies but makes > > Xena play a big role in her death. Xena perhaps by the time Sin Trade > > happens has thought about this and begins perhaps to even hate Akemi for > > using her and then abandoning her. > > Oh boy--I just don't see that at all. I don't think Xena was very involved > in caring about Akemi at all until she killed herself. Xena was after the > money. And then suddenly this physically inept poet, this silly little > child, this pawn whom Xena is with just to use to get money, pulls off a > very complex, very physically and mentally courageous act and then accepts > the full consequences of it, just like any warrior might. I think it's at > that point that she gains Xena's respect. Hmmm. I'm inclined to think that Akemi's self-possession and nerve (for example at her grandfather's grave when she coolly called Xena's bluff with the sword) had given Xena a grudging degree of respect for Akemi. > I wonder at this moment, when Xena said, "She broke my heart", I don't > think that was meant in a romantic way. I think it wasn't until Akemi > killed herself that her courage, integrity, intelligence and sheer > gutsiness became apparent to Xena. And her death (not one for the Greater > Good, but a useless, totally societally ordered death, like Naima's > intended death in Between The Lines), was what "broke Xena's heart". It > wasn't a failed or short-changed love between them that made Xena say > that. But that losing such a person in that way was such a shame. Now that idea, I really like. Because, if there was ever any romance between Xena and Akemi, it was very definitely off-screen and unstated. But I can think of a number of factors that could add up to Akemi's death 'breaking Xena's heart'. First, Akemi did deceive Xena - no more than she had to, but she kept this awful secret to herself - that she had to kill her father and then she was going to kill herself. That's tragic. What a load for a kid to have to bear. Xena probably wished Akemi had confided in her. Maybe Xena could have persuaded Akemi that there was another way to punish her father, without having to die. Still, keeping quiet about it was exactly what Xena would have done. And, I'm sure Xena wished (with hindsight) that she had been a little less abrupt with Akemi on so many occasions. If someone we've spent weeks with suddenly dies, aren't there dozens of things we'd wish we'd done and said differently? And maybe many things we never said, that we wish we had done? And, of course, as you say KT, Xena suddenly realised just what a powerful will Akemi had, to carry out her plan. Something Xena would particularly appreciate as being not so different in strength of character from Xena's own. I can see Xena experiencing an unsettling mixture of anger (for having deceived her), respect (for Akemi's self-possession in not showing anything), sorrow at Akemi's death, and melancholy at the missed opportunity to get to know such a brave character better. So, yes, I do like your idea. > > When Anakin comes along Xena may try to recreat the same > > relationship she had with Akemi but Anakin rejects her thus destroying > > another part of Xena's humanity. Alti of course knows all about Akemi > > and used Anakin to deepen the wounds Akemi caused and turn Xena even more > > to the dark. > > Again, I don't see this at all. It's very hard to say anything with any > surety (or at least as sure as we ever get) about Anokin, because there's > so little there. Actually, I watched Sin Trades today (on my newly arrived > DVD set, YAY!) and noticed for the first time the smirky look on Alti's > face when Xena is rebuffed by Anokin. It struck me that it was purely a > set up. I wonder if Alti didn't kill Anokin, again to display her power > to Xena. To lure Xena into wanting to go to the other world so that she > could see Alti's power at work even there. Yeah, it's like, 'What's with this Anokin thing?' Maybe some stuff got cut. Anokin was Xena-bait, dangled by Alti, but any more than that we don't know. And I just don't see how the rather petulant Anokin could ever have 'got to' Xena the way that Akemi did. > > Of course once Xena has more or less reformed she realizes that Akemi > > had to what she did to avenge her family. Xena no longer is burden by > > unreasonable hate and self-pity so 35 years later she is more than > > willing to help Akemi. > > I don't see Xena wallowing in hate for Akemi ever. Nor having self-pity > either. Not Xena in any phase of her life. > > KT I never saw any hint of hate, at any time, from Xena towards Akemi. Anger a couple of times, but never dislike. And you're right, I don't ever recall seeing Xena indulging in self-pity either. Not then, not ever. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:33:11 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Akemi and Anokin On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:50, KTL wrote: > Actually, I watched Sin Trades today (on my newly arrived > DVD set, YAY!) So the huskies didn't get to chew 'em after all. Congratulations!! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:42:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:40, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > AND Cyan had beat the snot out of Xena. Yet suddenly Xena can just kill > > her, fighting in the same environment? Even with the tricks, how come > > Xena is now the stronger one? So strong that she takes out the whole > > freaken tribe? Phhhhfffft. > > I think this was to indicate Xena's thirst for knowledge and super ability > to master new skills. Xena didn't particularly care for Cyane beating her > that first time, being dismissive and acting superior. I think she was > highly motivated to prove she didn't need the Amazons and could beat them > at their own game. I'll go along with that. Besides, I'm all in favour of rationalising plot points if readily possible (read: "making YAXIs go away") > She had the element of surprise on her side. She put > away her knife and said she'd fight Cyane fair and square, then proceeded > to use one of those spikey traps (possibly put there by the Amazons) to > impale Cyane. Well, strictly speaking, Cyane didn't hit the spike until after Xena had thrown her - 'fair and square'. > I don't see how what she did to them was any more improbable > than her other victories. I tend to agree, there. > It reminded me of how she defeated Najara -- someone else who'd beaten her. Now that - (Najara beating Xena) I always found hard to credit. > She used Najara's weakness (her fondness for Gabrielle) to distract the > zealot. Similarly, I think she used Cyane's trust to catch Cyne off guard > and utterly unprepared for Xena to betray the Amazons with their own > tactics. Yes but, by the time Cyane came to grips with Xena, she was no longer off-guard. Xena had just demonstrated unmistakeably what she was capable of. > Xena was no fool when it came to acknowledging who was "a pretty > tough girl." She didn't leave anything to chance or delude herself about > her abilities when it came to fighting an equal or possibly superior > opponent. > > -- Ife Yet, she did take Cyane on, head-on, and beat her. Is there any reason to doubt that, if Cyane had won the throw, Xena could have ended up on a spike? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:22:06 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy in San Fran Aug 2 Lucy has confirmed that she will be performing at the Palace of Fine Arts Theatre in San Francisco on Monday, August 2 at the: Help Is On The Way X Broadway and All That Jazz 10th Anniversary Gala She'll be doing a special combined version of two songs from Irving Berlin's Annie Get Your Gun -- "Falling In Love Is Wonderful" and "I Got Lost In His Arms" Click here http://www.richmondermet.org/reaf10.1/help10.html for more info. Sharon outback@creationent.com Official Xena Fan Club ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:02:42 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Arthur review I was reading a review of the new King Arthur movie where Guinevere is described as a "buff warrior princess". I guess now the term warrior princess now has become a kind of cultural shorthand. We merely have to say warrior princess and we all have the same understanding of what that means and what to expect from the character so described. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:29:43 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: Season 4 DVD In a message dated 7/6/2004 1:41:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Yet, she did take Cyane on, head-on, and beat her. Is there any reason to > > doubt that, if Cyane had won the throw, Xena could have ended up on a spike? > Xena essentially "chose the conditions" -- where and how she'd fight -- even though she used the Amazons' own methods. Whereas Cyane was enraged and unprepared for what happened, Xena had time to scope things out and be quite clear-headed. I saw her as leading Cyane into a trap. If Cyane had believed she'd needed to fight Xena, I think she would've challenged Xena, allowed Xena to prepare, and fought with more conventional weapons. Sure, once they were in the trees, Cyane might've wanted to impale Xena, but I think Xena counted on Cyane being off-balance by events just enough to give Xena a slight edge. Whatever, I saw little honorable in the way Xena chose to defeat Cyane. Nor did her victory prove to me that she was physically superior -- just more wiley. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #178 **************************************