From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #172 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, July 1 2004 Volume 04 : Number 172 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: FIN (was: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sin Trade 2) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Dinsdale [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Tale of Two Muses [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: FIN (was: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sin Trade 2) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: FIN (was: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sin Trade 2) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Dinsdale [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Gorse [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Pompey [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Family Affair ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:57:42 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: FIN (was: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sin Trade 2) In a message dated 6/29/2004 5:56:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leedaley@optonline.net writes: > agree with the comment that it was a good thing that the battles were > fought on a spiritual plane, where will is power. It is really the only > device where the classic mano a mano (or more properly femme a mano for FIN > or femme y femme for ST). Unfortunately in the chaos of real world > battles, who lives and who dies is purely a matter of chance. This worked > reality worked well in Pvt. Ryan and Band of Brothers, but just wouldn't > have made it in Xena, although it was hinted at in ITADITH. > Hmmm, while it's true you can be hit by car no matter how careful you are, some people do make decisions that *may* increase their chances of living or dying. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But the *intent* is important to the person and may even be seen as meaningful or "self-determined" to others. I've read accounts of people who survived "impossible" situations (while those with them died), because of their will to live. Interestingly, I understand children are often better at that, precisely because they don't worry about "odds" or "fate" or rely as much on more sophisticated technology (even the XWP kind). Xena *acted* as if what mattered was determining how best to put one foot in front of the other, regardless of whether the path was marked "Doomed" or "Na na na na na." While "Doctor" did explore the random nature of death in war, we see Ephiny managing to hide herself, a man choosing amputation over possible death from gangrene, and Gabrielle fighting to stay alive. To me, the message is that people can exercise some control, that they can do some amazing things if they want it badly enough. They can try for a life of "good days' fighting" or accept that nothing will change no matter what they do. I was glad Xena's last battle was a spiritual one because she'd already proven her abilities on the "earthly" realm. It was her soul/spirit she worried about in terms of believing it could have any worth after all the destruction and death she'd caused. I liked that, in the end, she put her soul/spirit to good use -- found value in it. Other than that, I didn't see much difference from the other times she chose to put herself in a situation where the odds for ("permanent") death were quite high. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:57:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Dinsdale In a message dated 6/29/2004 1:12:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > But wait a minute - this is supposed to be The Destroyer, the ultimate evil > > creature that will bring the world to an end, and I'm feeling _sorry_ for > him? That's the problem. He just isn't scary enough. He doesn't even > have as much power as Deimos or Discord! He isn't even in the same county > as daddy Ares. Come to that, he wasn't as scary as Hope. > > So that's really the problem with Dinsdale - he was oversold in his advance > billing and couldn't live up to it. > I'm thinking they purposely made him look vulnerable and childlike in his way. True, he was billed as the ultimate evil, but ended up being the *product* of evil. He didn't set out to destroy. His body and his mummy dearest made him deadly and ultimately dangerous to humans as well as animals. All he wanted was his mother's love and approval. Hope, on the other hand, looked innocent (wore the face of someone "good"), but truly was the villain. I think she was supposed to be scarier and that we were supposed to feel something for this unfortunate creature. He was the unwitting spawn and pawn of evil -- "terrible" not because of how he looked, but because of what he became in Hope's hands. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:57:43 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Tale of Two Muses It amazes me how I see more in eps each time I view them. As I viewed my DVD version of Muses, I noticed for the first time that Gabs appears to be filling Tara in on Auto's role, as he stands in front of them early on. Also, during Xena's "dance" moves, the background characters seem to be grinning at Lucy in a "real" way. Apparently she had some trouble with her steps. From the bystanders' faces, it seems more may have been going on (e.g., kidding around) than was scripted. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:57:45 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: FIN (was: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sin Trade 2) In a message dated 6/29/2004 1:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Again, I particularly like that she fought > >her last battle on the spiritual plane. I said earlier that Sin Trade was > >the way I wanted to see her ride off into the sunset at that point. She'd > >fought a spiritual battle then too. But since she wasn't dead then, I was > >glad to see her geared up to continue on. I guess AFIN took the spiritual > >quest/battle to its conclusion. Of course, what we like -- the choice > >aspect, is what bothers a lot of folks who preferred she choose life with > >Gabs. I'm just glad it was a choice -- not (as you suggest) an accident or > >someone else's doing. > > > >-- Ife > > Hmm, as you probably realise, I've always considered Xena had the right to > do > what she wanted with her own life. Of course, it's ironic in the > circumstances that staying dead was important for Xena's spiritual > wellbeing, which was something that Gabrielle was always so (irritatingly!) > solicitous of in Season 3... As Xena said on another occasion, gotta love > > the irony... > > That's why I took it as an affirmation of the relationship as I saw depicted on TV. They shared a commitment to the greater good. Gabrielle always wanted Xena to find value -- achieve some peace -- in her soul. Xena felt that Gabs' influence had helped make that possible. Xena could not have respected herself for choosing life with Gabs over the fate of the trapped souls (regardless of how unbelievable we thought that situation). Gabs wouldn't have wanted Xena to live with that new (and intentionally chosen) burden on her conscience. It's "wrong" to some fans that this meant they couldn't be together in the flesh, so to speak. For me, their love achieved the "higher meaning" of their time together -- Xena's sacrifice for the ideals Gabs believed in, Gabs' sacrifice for the honor and peace so important to Xena. So, while I agree with the gist of what you say, I didn't find it "ironic" at all. I saw it as a logical outcome of the choices and values they'd been supporting in each other from the beginning. I'm not saying that was the *only* outcome possible, but it took the outcome to a higher level in terms of what they were willing to do to back up what they said. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:35:43 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: FIN (was: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sin Trade 2) On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:57, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > Hmm, as you probably realise, I've always considered Xena had the right > > to do > > what she wanted with her own life. Of course, it's ironic in the > > circumstances that staying dead was important for Xena's spiritual > > wellbeing, which was something that Gabrielle was always so > > (irritatingly!) solicitous of in Season 3... As Xena said on another > > occasion, gotta love the irony... > > That's why I took it as an affirmation of the relationship as I saw > depicted on TV. They shared a commitment to the greater good. Gabrielle > always wanted Xena to find value -- achieve some peace -- in her soul. > Xena felt that Gabs' influence had helped make that possible. Xena could > not have respected herself for choosing life with Gabs over the fate of the > trapped souls (regardless of how unbelievable we thought that situation). > Gabs wouldn't have wanted Xena to live with that new (and intentionally > chosen) burden on her conscience. > > It's "wrong" to some fans that this meant they couldn't be together in the > flesh, so to speak. For me, their love achieved the "higher meaning" of > their time together -- Xena's sacrifice for the ideals Gabs believed in, > Gabs' sacrifice for the honor and peace so important to Xena. So, while I > agree with the gist of what you say, I didn't find it "ironic" at all. I > saw it as a logical outcome of the choices and values they'd been > supporting in each other from the beginning. I'm not saying that was the > *only* outcome possible, but it took the outcome to a higher level in terms > of what they were willing to do to back up what they said. > > -- Ife Well, I'm a sucker for irony and tend to see it everywhere. In this instance I suppose the irony is that Gabrielle's concern for Xena's soul almost got Xena killed in The Debt (and possibly other occasions); while in FIN Gabrielle's immediate instinct was quite the opposite, to revive Xena at whatever cost to her soul. I appreciate that, on reflection, Gabrielle might have overruled her initial instinctive reaction. Just from a statistical viewpoint, they were living a dangerous life. It was highly likely that sooner or later one or the other of them was going to get killed; rather less likely that they were both going to get killed at the same time. So the odds were, that they weren't going to be together indefinitely. But anyway, I saw FIN as the completion of Xena's quest. I don't mean to suggest that outcome was inevitable (that would be a rather depressing view!); but it was one of a number of possible outcomes that were (IMO) entirely compatible with the overall story in the series. I suppose a Gabcentric view might be that it's the story of how Gabrielle grew up to succeed Xena. My Xenacentric view is that it's the story of Xena, start to finish, complete. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:45:04 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Dinsdale On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:57, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/29/2004 1:12:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > But wait a minute - this is supposed to be The Destroyer, the ultimate > > evil > > > > creature that will bring the world to an end, and I'm feeling _sorry_ for > > him? That's the problem. He just isn't scary enough. He doesn't > > even have as much power as Deimos or Discord! He isn't even in the same > > county as daddy Ares. Come to that, he wasn't as scary as Hope. > > > > So that's really the problem with Dinsdale - he was oversold in his > > advance billing and couldn't live up to it. > > I'm thinking they purposely made him look vulnerable and childlike in his > way. True, he was billed as the ultimate evil, but ended up being the > *product* of evil. He didn't set out to destroy. His body and his mummy > dearest made him deadly and ultimately dangerous to humans as well as > animals. All he wanted was his mother's love and approval. Yes, but the problem is, he was billed (in Sacrifice 2) as the ultimate destroyer. Something much worse than Hope or Ares. And he just wasn't. > Hope, on the other hand, looked innocent (wore the face of someone "good"), > but truly was the villain. I think she was supposed to be scarier and that > we were supposed to feel something for this unfortunate creature. He was > the unwitting spawn and pawn of evil -- "terrible" not because of how he > looked, but because of what he became in Hope's hands. > > -- Ife He reminded me a bit of Frankenstein's monster. I think we were supposed to feel something for Dinsdale - certainly it was played that way in the ep. Whereas we never, ever, felt any sympathy for Dahak. So somewhere between Sacrifice 2 and Family Affair, the emphasis got shifted. I was expecting (from the description in Sacrifice) something truly horrific and lethal - and Dinsdale just wasn't up to it. One could imagine him tearing a villager apart, but one could also imagine a mob of villagers with pitchforks and torches finishing him off. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:31:49 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Gorse Funny how we take things for granted. I thought *everyone* knew what gorse was. It never occurred to me that it might be unknown in America. Anyway, in the commentary for In Sickness and In Hell, ROC got her hair tangled in a gorse bush and Lucy had to explain to her what gorse was, much to my surprise. It's a woody bush, with stiff straight springy stems and branches, and straight fairly sharp spines that stick out up to an inch long at right angles to the stem they're on. When it flowers it has gorgeous yellow flowers. Farmers, however, hate it because it spreads so much. I'm tolerant of gorse. Spiky though it is, it's almost always possible to brush cautiously past it even with bare arms without getting badly scratched. The branches spring out of the way, they don't grip you. You just have to be agile. This is in sharp contrast to brambles, which have nasty hooked thorns and flexible stems which wrap round you and dig in - the more agile you are with brambles, the worse you get shredded. Just in case you didn't know :) Another interesting point in the commentary - ROC thought it was filmed at Lion Park. Lucy corrected her and they eventually settled on Bethells. They (Lucy?) was right about it being the same location as the fish fight in The Quill is Mightier, and about it always being muddy - it is in fact on the flat meadows by the Waitakere River, on the Bethells Beach road about five or six miles short of Bethells itself. (Also the location of the Hope-worshippers' little celebration in Sacrifice). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:27:06 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Pompey Just watching 'A Good Day' and appreciating Jeremy Callaghan's performance as Pompey. As far as treacherous, murderous, megalomaniac Roman warlords go, I much prefer him to Caesar. There's nothing about Pompey's morals that I like, or indeed that anyone ought to like. He's quite prepared to use or doublecross anyone or anything to furher his ambitions and get one up on Caesar. But, he does have a certain sardonic appreciation of Xena's abilities. (Caesar's hatred of Xena, OTOH, won't permit him to appreciate or acknnowledge it when Xena scores a point). When Pompey meets Xena in the forest and she appears holding the helmets of the two guards he posted, he is not in the least put out and appears as if he expected her to mop up his guards. He seems perpetually slightly amused, not only at the world but even at his own reversals at Xena's hands. A true cynic, but it saves him from pomposity (notwithstanding his self-bestowed title of 'Pompey the Magnus'. One can't help feeling that he was mocking himself - and anyone who took his title seriously - when he adopted it). Caesar, OTOH, is far too full of his own importance to leave room for a sense of humour. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:26:21 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Family Affair > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:14:16 +1200 > From: cr > Subject: [chakram-refugees] Dinsdale > > > But wait a minute - this is supposed to be The Destroyer, the ultimate evil > creature that will bring the world to an end, and I'm feeling _sorry_ for > him? That's the problem. He just isn't scary enough. ...> So that's really the problem with Dinsdale - he was oversold in his advance > billing and couldn't live up to it. Remember Dinsy is just a baby destroyer. He 's just developing his powers, afterall. Right now he's just eating a sheperd or two he hasn't gotten around eating lots of people (I assume that's what he is suppose to do though I agree it is unclear how he alone was suppose destroy all of Dahak's enemies). Also he is Gabby's grandson maybe he humanity skipped a generation and he has inherited Gabby's warm and fuzzy genes. > > Actually, I had more sympathy for Dinsdale and Hope than I did for Gabs' > family. What a surly bunch, and particularly her father Herodotus. ... Yes after spending sometime with Gabby's family we do understand why she hitched up her skirts and ran after Xena as fast as she could. Herodotus is the kind of father who would make homeless ex-warlords look good. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #172 **************************************