From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #134 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, May 13 2004 Volume 04 : Number 134 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again ["Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:24, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/11/2004 3:03:41 AM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Now where, in the ep, does Xena say that she's forgiving Caesar? >> > > I never said I saw her "forgiving" Caesar in the ep itself. Then you certainly confused me. Read this: > > >>to > > >>stop hating Caesar she had to let him crucify her all over again? I'd > > >>rather harbour a good healthy dose of hatred, any day >> > > > > > >Heh. Actually, forgiveness of self and/or others is something people do > > >every day to heal or not let themselves be mired in past negative > > >experiences -- and I don't just mean in a religious sense. It wasn't > > > about Caesar, so much as letting go of emotions that tainted (and in > > > Deliverer nearly derailed) her focus as Reformed Xena. I think that was the first mention of 'forgiveness' ? > I said > I saw her accepting that he and what he did was a hated -- but integral -- > thread in the fabric of her life. I said that Xena decided she needed to > get on (accept) that cross for some reason. The reason I emphasized was > practical -- that it was the event Caesar chose *not* to have happen, in > order to change his destiny. I'm not saying that's "right," only that it > fits with events I saw. > > You didn't see the logic or purpose of that, presumably because it > suggested weakness, forgiveness, defeat, and a lot of other stuff we > discussed. You focused on the whole forgiving thing, which to me has a > slightly different meaning than the "letting go" I had in mind. I > discussed it with you because I did see forgiveness (self and otherwise) as > one of many possible interpretations that you kept coming back to. I > personally like the idea that forgiveness was in there, but that's not the > basis for why I said her getting on the cross made more sense to me now. OK, I see the difference between 'acceptance' and 'forgiveness'. What I cannot accept, is that there was any reason for Xena in the 'real' world to accept or forgive Caesar for crucifying her. Ceasar and his cross deserved neither acceptance nor forgiveness, the treacherous little rat. It would have been bad psychologically _for Xena_ to obsess over her hatred of Caesar or a desire for revenge - and mostly she got over it, except when Caesar got right in her face. As for Caesar getting killed in Ides, he had it coming. He richly deserved it. Soooo, I do not see that Xena had any part of the blame for the setting up of Caesar's world, and therefore I don't see that she should feel obligated to hop back on that cross again to end it. > > XENA In the other world, my destiny was linked to Caesar and that > > cross - > > and I hated them both. But now I realize that everything happens > > precisely as > > it should. Precisely. >> > > The above statement is the main one that led me to believe she saw a > connection between what happened in the "other world" and what she had to > do in Caesar's world. I saw her choose getting on the cross, rather than > some other option. I wanted to explore the reasons why she did what the ep > presented her as doing, regardless of what I personally might liked to have > seen. I had to base that on what I saw -- from Caesar's selecting a > "defining moment," to Alti's visions, to insta-magnetism with Gabs, to > Xena's apparent willingness to get on the cross, to Gabs' destruction of > the loom, to the two of them back in their own world. Too many weak links, IMO. > I said a long time ago that Fates wasn't exactly what I wanted to see > either, though I thought it had some worthwhile moments. I couldn't > understand why some people loved it so much. A lot of it didn't make sense > to me. I'm not happy seeing Xena on a cross for any reason. I don't have a > need to see the insta-X&G magnetic thing to enhance my appreciation for > their relationship. I didn't like the idea of anybody but Xena "making" > Xena, though I would've preferred Ares -- even Cortes -- over Caesar. Oh, me too, to all of that. I always hated the idea that Caesar loomed any larger in Xena's world than a rather dangerous little pest. (I actually liked Pompey a lot better, even though I trusted him no more than Caesar. He just had more charisma. :) And of course, I actually _like_ the idea that Ares had a lot to do with 'making' Xena. Though, not as much as Xena herself, of course. > It hurts my brain trying to follow the vagaries of alternate realities. When I've worked them out, I usually like them. I had no problem with the basic premise of WFC - that Caesar messed with the loom. And that destroying the loom brought the 'real' world back, I could accept even though it didn't strictly make sense. It was the Xena-having-to-get-crucified that I still don't see the logical necessity for. (I still reckon the real reason was just 'Ides was cool, "I love you Gabby" was cool, let's do it again' :) > I prefer "my" Xena with the "edge" that Fates Xena didn't have. Oh yes, that, definitely. > IOW, I can well understand questioning any one of the key aspects presented > to us. But if you question nearly all -- say they couldn't, wouldn't or > shouldn't have happened -- that's why I said to me it's rewriting the story > we got. From that standpoint, I do think I've got a pretty good idea of > what you'd have liked (or not) to see instead. > > -- Ife No, it's not rewriting the story, it's saying there are too many weak points in the story. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:25:20 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again In a message dated 5/12/2004 5:42:12 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > What I cannot accept, is that there was any reason for Xena in the 'real' > world to accept or forgive Caesar for crucifying her.>> Understood. > I do not see that Xena had any part of the blame for the setting up of > Caesar's world, and therefore I don't see that she should feel obligated to > hop back on that cross again to end it. >> Uh huh. > I had no problem with the > basic premise of WFC - that Caesar messed with the loom. And that > destroying the loom brought the 'real' world back, I could accept even > though > it didn't strictly make sense. It was the Xena-having-to-get-crucified > that > I still don't see the logical necessity for. >> > Clearly. > No, it's not rewriting the story, it's saying there are too many weak > points > in the story. > Hmmm. And some of those "many weak points" could be fixed (based on your comments) by maybe having Xena feel no connection to Alti's visions (assuming there are visions), treat Gabs as any other sappy playwright she just met (assuming Gabs is there at all), fight the guards/kill Caesar (aka The Treacherous Little Rat/Dangerous Little Pest) like "real" Xena would in the "real" world, definitely avoid crosses at all costs, and destroy the loom herself to restore the world? The beginning (Caesar's messing with the loom) and the end (when X&G pop back into their "true" world) would basically stay the same? Xena'd still get to wear that cool black outfit? Okey dokey. I suppose I can picture that as the story. Might have to change the title though -- e.g., "Fates: The Episode That Was Supposed To Air." Whew! If I could just learn (sooner) to stop making things so difficult! - -- Ife the Agreeable (snorts accepted/forgiven) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:07:13 -0500 From: "Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Mon, 10 May 2004 18:19:17 +1200 cr wrote: > > On Mon, 10 May 2004 06:49, Janice Stewart wrote: > > (snip) > > I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Gabby would have been > > motivated to take out the loom had Xena not submitted to the crucifixion. > > So, in my view, Xena's dying on the cross had everything to do with it. > > Well that's a pretty bizarre and twisted way of getting Gabs to muster the > necessary destructive impulses, not to mention unreliable. How the heck > could Xena know what Gabs would do? > > It could have been achieved far more directly, certainly, economically, and > effectively, simply by having Xena destroy the loom herself. She was very > good at destroying god-things. > > (snip) > > cr When viewing Fates, my take on it (mainly from Xena's everything-happens-precisely-as-it-should speech) was that Xena's mission in this ep was not to destroy Caesar in the alt world, but rather to destroy the alt world. That scense also gave me the impression that Xena KNEW, maybe not cognitively but intuitively, that she would have to submit to the cross to achieve that end. I just chalked it up to her spidey-sense. Anyway, that's how it struck me. XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #134 **************************************