From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #133 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, May 12 2004 Volume 04 : Number 133 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:08:07 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Tue, 11 May 2004 10:18, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2004 3:01:46 AM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << So in order > > > > >>to > > >>stop hating Caesar she had to let him crucify her all over again? I'd > > >>rather harbour a good healthy dose of hatred, any day >> > > > > > >Heh. Actually, forgiveness of self and/or others is something people do > > >every day to heal or not let themselves be mired in past negative > > >experiences -- and I don't just mean in a religious sense. It wasn't > > > about Caesar, so much as letting go of emotions that tainted (and in > > > Deliverer nearly derailed) her focus as Reformed Xena. > > > > Yeah, but forgiveness of someone else does not normally extend to > > assisting them to do it all over again!! >> > > You mean all the other times everybody else gets to experience alternate > lives that weren't supposed to happen? No, I mean specifically "I forgive you for crucifying me" does not require one to say "Here, come and have another go!" > > >Under "normal" circumstances, many of us probably agree she wouldn't be > > > all that concerned about such a "purge," that she'd rather do anything > > > than let Caesar put her on another cross. Indeed, it seemed a bit > > > galling to her that she needed to accept Caesar and his cross as a > > > necessary part of who she had become. The way she speaks about it > > > isn't, "Yippee, I've always wanted to give Caesar credit for betraying > > > me, crucifying me and being the catalyst for turning me into a > > > monster." Nor does she weep and moan about being helpless or say > > > something like, "Caesar will get his way after all, no matter what I > > > do." She says with some disgust that things happened "precisely" as > > > they should have. > > > > Well, hang on now. First, in Caesar's world, she had no strong historic > > reason to hate Caesar. He treated her rather well. Any hate she had > > was brand new and surely quite unrelated to old crosses. >> > > So, you're completely discounting what she learned from the vision? It's > obvious the visions brought back old emotions and memories, even if she > hadn't experienced the events in Caesar's world. That can't work. How would the Xena of Caesar's world have any memories of the 'real' world? OK, the same way X&G remember Caesar's world when they're back in the 'real' world, I suppose. A minor impossibility. > So, yes, it was "brand > new" in one sense, but definitely related to what she recalled about "old > crosses." Why else would she spit on him and say he'd be a low-life > betrayer no matter what life it was? Hmmm, because he'd just double-crossed her and she'd seen him do it before in Alti's vision. > > Second, as I said elsewhere, there is absolutely no reason why stopping > > hating him, meant that she had to let him crucify her. There are plenty > > of > > people I don't hate but I'm not about to prove it by letting any one of > > them crucify me, or even hit me over the head with a sandbag. >> > > Well, we might as well give this up. You're rewriting the story we saw -- > throwing out what doesn't make sense to you, adding in what does and > treating each detail as if it has no connection to the context. Once > again, you don't accept the whole premise, which is fine. It's no > different to me than those who want to re-write AFIN, which is also fine. > My frustration is that I thought we were discussing what Xenastaff gave us, > not fanfic. No no. We're discussing our respective interpretations of what Xenastaff gave us, I think. Now where, in the ep, does Xena say that she's forgiving Caesar? All I can find in the transcript is this: XENA Caesar changed our fate...giving us this godforsaken world. GABRIELLE Must be something that I can do. XENA No, what you can do is get out of here alive. I have to go through this alone. GABRIELLE (whispers) I can't let you die. XENA Some things are worth dying for. Isn't that what your play was about? Being prepared to sacrifice all for love? GABRIELLE (whispers) For love. XENA In the other world, my destiny was linked to Caesar and that cross - and I hated them both. But now I realize that everything happens precisely as it should. Precisely. Now, aside from the hint that Xena's doing it all for luuurve (which is really icky :), I can't see any suggestion that Xena's forgiving Caesar. In fact, if she is indeed trying to bring the 'real' world back, she seems quite aware that in that world she hated Caesar, and she seems to find nothing wrong with that idea. > That's the only reason I continued trying to explain how they > may have gotten from Point A to B. Either we accept there's a way/reason > for Xena to do what she does or we don't. In this case, you don't. That > said, I do appreciate that discussing it with you has at least helped me > understand the ep better. > > Now where, in the ep, does Xena say that she's forgiving Caesar? >> I never said I saw her "forgiving" Caesar in the ep itself. I said I saw her accepting that he and what he did was a hated -- but integral -- thread in the fabric of her life. I said that Xena decided she needed to get on (accept) that cross for some reason. The reason I emphasized was practical -- that it was the event Caesar chose *not* to have happen, in order to change his destiny. I'm not saying that's "right," only that it fits with events I saw. You didn't see the logic or purpose of that, presumably because it suggested weakness, forgiveness, defeat, and a lot of other stuff we discussed. You focused on the whole forgiving thing, which to me has a slightly different meaning than the "letting go" I had in mind. I discussed it with you because I did see forgiveness (self and otherwise) as one of many possible interpretations that you kept coming back to. I personally like the idea that forgiveness was in there, but that's not the basis for why I said her getting on the cross made more sense to me now. > XENA In the other world, my destiny was linked to Caesar and that cross > - > and I hated them both. But now I realize that everything happens precisely > as > it should. Precisely. >> The above statement is the main one that led me to believe she saw a connection between what happened in the "other world" and what she had to do in Caesar's world. I saw her choose getting on the cross, rather than some other option. I wanted to explore the reasons why she did what the ep presented her as doing, regardless of what I personally might liked to have seen. I had to base that on what I saw -- from Caesar's selecting a "defining moment," to Alti's visions, to insta-magnetism with Gabs, to Xena's apparent willingness to get on the cross, to Gabs' destruction of the loom, to the two of them back in their own world. I said a long time ago that Fates wasn't exactly what I wanted to see either, though I thought it had some worthwhile moments. I couldn't understand why some people loved it so much. A lot of it didn't make sense to me. I'm not happy seeing Xena on a cross for any reason. I don't have a need to see the insta-X&G magnetic thing to enhance my appreciation for their relationship. I didn't like the idea of anybody but Xena "making" Xena, though I would've preferred Ares -- even Cortes -- over Caesar. It hurts my brain trying to follow the vagaries of alternate realities. I prefer "my" Xena with the "edge" that Fates Xena didn't have. IOW, I can well understand questioning any one of the key aspects presented to us. But if you question nearly all -- say they couldn't, wouldn't or shouldn't have happened -- that's why I said to me it's rewriting the story we got. From that standpoint, I do think I've got a pretty good idea of what you'd have liked (or not) to see instead. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #133 **************************************