From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #132 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, May 11 2004 Volume 04 : Number 132 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] [chakram-refugees] pitchin' woo.... ROC ref. ["Mark B." On Sat, 8 May 2004 18:45:33 +1200 cr wrote: > > >>>Well, I could see how Caesar's world got created. And how it got > >>>destroyed > >>>- - Gabby wrecked the loom. (Though why that restored the 'real' > world > >>>instead of just causing total global annihilation I don't know). > And, > >>>Xena > >>>was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would restore the > 'real' > >>>world. What we differ on is whether she had any grounds for making > >>>that assumption. In fact, Gabs was nearer to getting it 'right' on > >>>this occasion than Xena - another very odd circumstance, since Xena > was > >>>the expert on godly institutions, not Gabby. > >> > >>Why do you say Xena was in error in assuming that dying on the cross > would > >>restore the 'real' world? That's exactly what happened. > >> > >>XWPacolyte > >>Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. > > > >No. Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. The > >Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly what > >happened. Xena dying on the cross had nothing to do with it. > > I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Gabby would have been > motivated to take out the loom had Xena not submitted to the crucifixion. > So, in my view, Xena's dying on the cross had everything to do with it. >> I keep trying 'splain that to cr, but he just doesn't see the connection. I also thought it was important for Xena to be on the cross because that was the "defining Xena moment" Caesar picked to screw things up. I think she felt that whatever happened, that act had to occur. Also, I know this is being picky, but I don't believe Xena ever says she needs to *die* on the cross. She didn't die the first time, as M'Lila saved her. (Technically, she returned to life after the crucifixion in Ides.) We don't see her dying in Fates either. I'm not saying Xena knew what the outcome would be. All she believed for sure was that she needed to get on that cross. I guess that point is important to me because there's more precedence for Xena (and Gabs) surviving their cross ordeals, than of their not. Hence, Xena wasn't necessarily intent on dying, though she was apparently prepared to do so. Nor was her death necessarily critical to setting things right. She simply needed to accept that part of her experiences that she hated, if she was to be "true" to the "real" self that grew out of those experiences. > I agree that it's puzzling as to how the 'real' world was restored by > Gabby > destroying the loom. Maybe someone else can find some logic in it, but I > sure can't. >> I agree with you both. The only thing I can see is that it symbolizes the importance of humans taking responsibility for their own destinies. Lilli mentioned that it's in line with the whole treatment of the gods. Maybe the thing with the Fates was a continuation of that, in that Gabs basically repudiates the Fates and their ability to control what happens or what's "right." Gabs took things in her own hands, just as Caesar tried to do. The main difference is that Caesar tried to deny what had already happened, while Gabs denied (in both senses of the word) what wasn't supposed to happen (and didn't in a sense). Of course, you'd think X&G wouldn't remember what hadn't happened, but what fun would that be? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 01:22:19 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again In a message dated 5/9/2004 1:44:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > >She hated the role Caesar and his cross played in who she became. She > >needed to accept both as part of the "real" fabric of her life, of also > >making her who she became as Reformed Xena. (Reminiscent of Dreamworker) > >Her decision wasn't just about Caesar's world in general. More important > >for her personally, it was about accepting and letting go of her hatred for > >what helped make her who she was supposed to be. > > Oh dear, that's way too convoluted and metaphysical for me. So in order to > > stop hating Caesar she had to let him crucify her all over again? I'd > rather harbour a good healthy dose of hatred, any day >> Heh. Actually, forgiveness of self and/or others is something people do every day to heal or not let themselves be mired in past negative experiences -- and I don't just mean in a religious sense. It wasn't about Caesar, so much as letting go of emotions that tainted (and in Deliverer nearly derailed) her focus as Reformed Xena. Under "normal" circumstances, many of us probably agree she wouldn't be all that concerned about such a "purge," that she'd rather do anything than let Caesar put her on another cross. Indeed, it seemed a bit galling to her that she needed to accept Caesar and his cross as a necessary part of who she had become. The way she speaks about it isn't, "Yippee, I've always wanted to give Caesar credit for betraying me, crucifying me and being the catalyst for turning me into a monster." Nor does she weep and moan about being helpless or say something like, "Caesar will get his way after all, no matter what I do." She says with some disgust that things happened "precisely" as they should have. I guess that's why I believe she felt she had no other choice, if there was any hope to cut her thread in the wrong fabric Caesar fashioned. To me, she made a conscious, practical decision, despite whatever reluctance and agony it involved. Xena didn't settle for the easy choice if she thought a tougher one would work better. This time she felt it required the last choice on earth she would willingly make without a good reason (except maybe marrying Ares). We differ on whether it was a "good reason" or not. The fact that she would even consider an option so terrible -- let alone pick it -- is what made her different from those of us who would rather hang on to our hate, regardless of how ineffective that might be. > > But anyway, Xena 'accepting' Caesar and his cross or not, had nothing to do > with the setting up of Caesar's world. Caesar set that up without > consulting Xena. >> She was accepting the role he played in the fabric of her life, which he definitely didn't consult her about. In fact, she willingly wove him into it, thinking she could use him to make her own life more ... something -- glorious, profitable, interesting, etc. Unfortunately for her, he had his own visions of "destiny." She couldn't control him any more than he could control her later on -- except when she let her feelings about him blind her to bits of information she might normally have paid attention to. They didn't need to "consult" each other to wreak havoc in each other's lives. As to Caesar's motivations, I don't see how you can say Xena's "real" actions had nothing to do with why he thought he could change his destiny by changing hers. And furthermore, 'accepting' the role that Caesar and his > > cross played, doesn't mean she has to go and do it all over again! >> How else do you see her "accepting" it? Simply saying so? > >>>and to spur Gabs into action) > >>>in order for Gabs' rage (ooo, that's a turnabout) to be > >>>successful. It seems both events were needed to restore the real world. > >> > >>Well, we don't know that. In fact, burning the loom would appear to be > >>the > >> > >>necessary and sufficient thing. Xena could have done that perfectly > >>well herself instead of getting crucified. >> > > > >Not if she wanted to rise above -- rather than hang (ironically) on to her > >hatred of Caesar and the cross. Not if she wanted to try to duplicate the > >act that Caesar chose to eliminate in creating his world. Xena's > >destroying the loom would've been an act of desperation, as it was for > >Gabs, whereas Xena had reason to believe that getting on the cross was the > >"right" action. Obviously, second-guessing what happens in eps is what we > >often do. I'm simply saying that, in Fates, it seemed that events happened > >"precisely" as they needed to (including Xena on the cross) for things to > >work out. At least, that's what I saw. > > > >-- Ife > > So, in effect, Xena _had_ to go and get crucified in order to 'save the > world' ? >> That's what happened, though, as I've said, I'm not sure Xena was counting on that. That this had to happen precisely as ordered? That, to me, > > flies right in the face of what Xena (and Hercules) always said, that we > make > our own fate. >> That's what I saw her doing. She chose not to participate in Caesar's world, which she would've been doing if she fought him, ran off, or got killed by the guards. None of those acts would've gotten back the life she *was* responsible for. Caesar was responsible for the life she lived in Fates. He played a god. She repudiated his right to do that, by ending the life he'd created for her -- one way or another. It also offends my sense of justice - that Fate said nasty > > loathsome evil Caesar was going to manage to crucify Xena, one way or > another, come hell or high water, and there was no way she could duck. > (It also conflicts with my philosophy of life, which is 'Shit happens'. > There's nothing in my philosophy that says you're not allowed to grab a > shovel ;) >> Are you completely absolving Xena's role in what happened to her? Was it "justice" that she get to escape the act which she helped bring upon herself? That she got to erase the destructive part of her life -- which she chose to embark upon -- because she didn't like it or because she sought to make amends later? That Caesar (or the Fates) did indeed "make" her? Shit didn't just happen in Xena's life. It's quite clear that she made much of it happen -- reveled in and profited from it. She was extraordinarily lucky to have numerous potential shovels -- many of which she chose to ignore. She was using a shovel as Redeemed Xena when her old shit fell on her again in the form of Caesar (who apparently learned from her that "dead" doesn't have to mean "dead"). Xena could've chosen at any point to let old shit lie where it was, to say, "That wasn't the 'real' me." The whole series was about a woman who refused to make excuses or accept forgiveness even when the "highest authorities" said it was okay. Why would she want to "duck" shit she was devoting her life to cleaning up? Especially when some of it was hers? (I'm talking Xena here, not us mere mortals." One of the reasons you don't like Xena's choice is precisely because there were others she could've made. The Fates didn't dictate that she get on the cross. Caesar -- not the Fates -- decided to mess with the loom, to determine that Xena would *not* get on the cross in the "real" timeline, presumably figuring this would eliminate the need for him to crucify her in the altered timeline. *Xena* chose to do it, which is why we're having this discussion. You don't think, or see any reason why, she would do that. I believe she accepted responsibility for the life she wove through "real" choices she'd made - -- bad parts and all. I believe she accepted the consequences of those choices - -- negative ones and all. It's the life *she* made that drove Caesar to want to change it. You can say she was stupid or cowardly or "uncharacteristic" in making her decision. You can say the ep was "wrong" to put her in that position. But if you ignore her responsibility for why she was in that situation, or the fact that she did make the decision amidst other options, then, yes, you can also say she was like a puppet with somebody else unfairly pulling the strings. > > 'Oh thou, who didst with pitfall and with gin > Beset the Road I was to wander in > Thou wilt not with Predestination round > Enmesh me, and impute my Fall to Sin ?' > > (couldn't resist that one ;)>> I seriously doubt that would express Xena's sentiments. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:01:08 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:22, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/9/2004 1:44:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >She hated the role Caesar and his cross played in who she became. She > > >needed to accept both as part of the "real" fabric of her life, of also > > >making her who she became as Reformed Xena. (Reminiscent of > > > Dreamworker) Her decision wasn't just about Caesar's world in general. > > > More important for her personally, it was about accepting and letting > > > go of her hatred for what helped make her who she was supposed to be. > > > > Oh dear, that's way too convoluted and metaphysical for me. So in order > > to > > stop hating Caesar she had to let him crucify her all over again? I'd > > rather harbour a good healthy dose of hatred, any day >> > > Heh. Actually, forgiveness of self and/or others is something people do > every day to heal or not let themselves be mired in past negative > experiences -- and I don't just mean in a religious sense. It wasn't about > Caesar, so much as letting go of emotions that tainted (and in Deliverer > nearly derailed) her focus as Reformed Xena. Yeah, but forgiveness of someone else does not normally extend to assisting them to do it all over again!! > Under "normal" circumstances, many of us probably agree she wouldn't be all > that concerned about such a "purge," that she'd rather do anything than let > Caesar put her on another cross. Indeed, it seemed a bit galling to her > that she needed to accept Caesar and his cross as a necessary part of who > she had become. The way she speaks about it isn't, "Yippee, I've always > wanted to give Caesar credit for betraying me, crucifying me and being the > catalyst for turning me into a monster." Nor does she weep and moan about > being helpless or say something like, "Caesar will get his way after all, > no matter what I do." She says with some disgust that things happened > "precisely" as they should have. > > I guess that's why I believe she felt she had no other choice, if there was > any hope to cut her thread in the wrong fabric Caesar fashioned. To me, > she made a conscious, practical decision, despite whatever reluctance and > agony it involved. Xena didn't settle for the easy choice if she thought a > tougher one would work better. This time she felt it required the last > choice on earth she would willingly make without a good reason (except > maybe marrying Ares). We differ on whether it was a "good reason" or not. > The fact that she would even consider an option so terrible -- let alone > pick it -- is what made her different from those of us who would rather > hang on to our hate, regardless of how ineffective that might be. Well, hang on now. First, in Caesar's world, she had no strong historic reason to hate Caesar. He treated her rather well. Any hate she had was brand new and surely quite unrelated to old crosses. Second, as I said elsewhere, there is absolutely no reason why stopping hating him, meant that she had to let him crucify her. There are plenty of people I don't hate but I'm not about to prove it by letting any one of them crucify me, or even hit me over the head with a sandbag. > > But anyway, Xena 'accepting' Caesar and his cross or not, had nothing to > > do with the setting up of Caesar's world. Caesar set that up without > > consulting Xena. >> > > She was accepting the role he played in the fabric of her life, which he > definitely didn't consult her about. In fact, she willingly wove him into > it, thinking she could use him to make her own life more ... something -- > glorious, profitable, interesting, etc. Unfortunately for her, he had his > own visions of "destiny." She couldn't control him any more than he could > control her later on -- except when she let her feelings about him blind > her to bits of information she might normally have paid attention to. They > didn't need to "consult" each other to wreak havoc in each other's lives. > As to Caesar's motivations, I don't see how you can say Xena's "real" > actions had nothing to do with why he thought he could change his destiny > by changing hers. > > And furthermore, 'accepting' the role that Caesar and his > > cross played, doesn't mean she has to go and do it all over again! > > How else do you see her "accepting" it? Simply saying so? Yeah. 'Acceptance' does not mean letting history repeat itself! > > > > So, in effect, Xena _had_ to go and get crucified in order to 'save the > > world' ? >> > > That's what happened, though, as I've said, I'm not sure Xena was counting > on that. Well, if she wasn't, (and I can't see why she should), why the heck would she ever let Creepy crucify her? > > That this had to happen precisely as ordered? That, to me, > > flies right in the face of what Xena (and Hercules) always said, that we > > make our own fate. >> > > That's what I saw her doing. She chose not to participate in Caesar's > world, which she would've been doing if she fought him, ran off, or got > killed by the guards. 'Scuse me? So letting Caesar crucify her was 'not participating' ? That does not compute. > None of those acts would've gotten back the life she *was* responsible for. If you mean the 'real' world, I thought we'd already established she had no idea that getting crucified would bring that back. > Caesar was responsible for the life she lived in > Fates. He played a god. She repudiated his right to do that, by ending > the life he'd created for her -- one way or another. Yeah but there were an infinity of better, more Xena-like, ways to do it. IMO. (Besides, you said there was no certainty she would die on the cross - - a point I don't agree with - but that would nullify your statement immediately above). > > It also offends my sense of justice - that Fate said nasty > > loathsome evil Caesar was going to manage to crucify Xena, one way or > > another, come hell or high water, and there was no way she could duck. > > (It also conflicts with my philosophy of life, which is 'Shit happens'. > > There's nothing in my philosophy that says you're not allowed to grab a > > shovel ;) >> > > Are you completely absolving Xena's role in what happened to her? Was it > "justice" that she get to escape the act which she helped bring upon > herself? That she got to erase the destructive part of her life -- which > she chose to embark upon -- because she didn't like it or because she > sought to make amends later? That Caesar (or the Fates) did indeed "make" > her? No. However, holding Caesar to ransom can hardly be said to justify being crucified. Getting betrayed and crucified by Caesar definitely comes in the 'shit happens' class rather than divine retribution, IMO. Or as Ares said, 'A good deed never goes unpunished'. If Xena had let her guy slaughter Caesar on the wharf, or dropped him over the side with a length of anchor chain wrapped round him, she would have avoided that fate (and a whole lot of people would have been better off). She thought Caesar would play the game in the usual way - you get captured, you get ransomed, no hard feelings - she had no way of knowing the vindictive megalomaniac that Caesar was. Did she deserve crucifixion for that? > Shit didn't just happen in Xena's life. It's quite clear that she made > much of it happen -- reveled in and profited from it. She was > extraordinarily lucky to have numerous potential shovels -- many of which > she chose to ignore. She was using a shovel as Redeemed Xena when her old > shit fell on her again in the form of Caesar (who apparently learned from > her that "dead" doesn't have to mean "dead"). Xena could've chosen at any > point to let old shit lie where it was, to say, "That wasn't the 'real' > me." The whole series was about a woman who refused to make excuses or > accept forgiveness even when the "highest authorities" said it was okay. > Why would she want to "duck" shit she was devoting her life to cleaning up? > Especially when some of it was hers? (I'm talking Xena here, not us mere > mortals." BUT the Xena of Caesar's world was rather different. She didn't have a long history of Evil Xena to atone for, and she didn't therefore have a lot to clean up. And even the 'real' Xena would not go sacrificing herself to a creep like Caesar for no reason whatever. > One of the reasons you don't like Xena's choice is precisely because there > were others she could've made. Yes! EXACTLY! > The Fates didn't dictate that she get on the > cross. Caesar -- not the Fates -- decided to mess with the loom, to > determine that Xena would *not* get on the cross in the "real" timeline, > presumably figuring this would eliminate the need for him to crucify her in > the altered timeline. *Xena* chose to do it, which is why we're having > this discussion. > > You don't think, or see any reason why, she would do that. I believe she > accepted responsibility for the life she wove through "real" choices she'd > made -- bad parts and all. I believe she accepted the consequences of > those choices -- negative ones and all. It's the life *she* made that > drove Caesar to want to change it. You can say she was stupid or cowardly > or "uncharacteristic" in making her decision. You can say the ep was > "wrong" to put her in that position. But if you ignore her responsibility > for why she was in that situation, or the fact that she did make the > decision amidst other options, then, yes, you can also say she was like a > puppet with somebody else unfairly pulling the strings. But in Caesar's world, she was _not_ responsible for the position she was in. Nor did she have the long dark history to feel guilty about that 'real' Xena did. Therefore, she had *no* reason to get crucified. > > 'Oh thou, who didst with pitfall and with gin > > Beset the Road I was to wander in > > Thou wilt not with Predestination round > > Enmesh me, and impute my Fall to Sin ?' > > > > (couldn't resist that one ;)>> > > I seriously doubt that would express Xena's sentiments. :-) > > -- Ife Oh, I dunno. Xena (and Herc) always denied predestination. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:19:17 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Mon, 10 May 2004 06:49, Janice Stewart wrote: (snip) > > No. Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. > > The Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly > > what happened. Xena dying on the cross had nothing to do with it. > > I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Gabby would have been > motivated to take out the loom had Xena not submitted to the crucifixion. > So, in my view, Xena's dying on the cross had everything to do with it. Well that's a pretty bizarre and twisted way of getting Gabs to muster the necessary destructive impulses, not to mention unreliable. How the heck could Xena know what Gabs would do? It could have been achieved far more directly, certainly, economically, and effectively, simply by having Xena destroy the loom herself. She was very good at destroying god-things. (snip) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:36:43 -0500 From: "Mark B." Subject: [chakram-refugees] pitchin' woo.... ROC ref. This 'do you remember' site was sent to me. While I do remember a lot of the things mentioned I cracked up at the picture they showed next to "pitchin' woo" -- none other than Joxer and Gabrielle making out [thanks to Cupid's little boy]! The reference is about 3/4 down the long list. Mark http://www.singingman.us/DYR.htm ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:18:18 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again In a message dated 5/10/2004 3:01:46 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > << So in order > >>to > >>stop hating Caesar she had to let him crucify her all over again? I'd > >>rather harbour a good healthy dose of hatred, any day >> > > > >Heh. Actually, forgiveness of self and/or others is something people do > >every day to heal or not let themselves be mired in past negative > >experiences -- and I don't just mean in a religious sense. It wasn't about > >Caesar, so much as letting go of emotions that tainted (and in Deliverer > >nearly derailed) her focus as Reformed Xena. > > Yeah, but forgiveness of someone else does not normally extend to assisting > them to do it all over again!! >> You mean all the other times everybody else gets to experience alternate lives that weren't supposed to happen? > > > >Under "normal" circumstances, many of us probably agree she wouldn't be all > >that concerned about such a "purge," that she'd rather do anything than let > >Caesar put her on another cross. Indeed, it seemed a bit galling to her > >that she needed to accept Caesar and his cross as a necessary part of who > >she had become. The way she speaks about it isn't, "Yippee, I've always > >wanted to give Caesar credit for betraying me, crucifying me and being the > >catalyst for turning me into a monster." Nor does she weep and moan about > >being helpless or say something like, "Caesar will get his way after all, > >no matter what I do." She says with some disgust that things happened > >"precisely" as they should have. > > > Well, hang on now. First, in Caesar's world, she had no strong historic > reason to hate Caesar. He treated her rather well. Any hate she had was > brand new and surely quite unrelated to old crosses. >> So, you're completely discounting what she learned from the vision? It's obvious the visions brought back old emotions and memories, even if she hadn't experienced the events in Caesar's world. So, yes, it was "brand new" in one sense, but definitely related to what she recalled about "old crosses." Why else would she spit on him and say he'd be a low-life betrayer no matter what life it was? > Second, as I said elsewhere, there is absolutely no reason why stopping > hating him, meant that she had to let him crucify her. There are plenty of > > people I don't hate but I'm not about to prove it by letting any one of them > > crucify me, or even hit me over the head with a sandbag. >> Well, we might as well give this up. You're rewriting the story we saw -- throwing out what doesn't make sense to you, adding in what does and treating each detail as if it has no connection to the context. Once again, you don't accept the whole premise, which is fine. It's no different to me than those who want to re-write AFIN, which is also fine. My frustration is that I thought we were discussing what Xenastaff gave us, not fanfic. That's the only reason I continued trying to explain how they may have gotten from Point A to B. Either we accept there's a way/reason for Xena to do what she does or we don't. In this case, you don't. That said, I do appreciate that discussing it with you has at least helped me understand the ep better. > - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #132 **************************************