From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #131 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, May 10 2004 Volume 04 : Number 131 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [Lilli Sprintz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] S4-6 DVDs [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again ["Janice Stewart" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again Janice Stewart wrote: >No. Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. The >Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly what >happened. > It occurs to me reading this discussion, that the destruction of the loom was part of the whole getting rid of the god/desses - their being killed off, or depowered in some way, part of which started at the very beginning of the series with Xena's attitude, and later (and in this episode) Gabrielle's, that they didn't want to depend on the gods for their choices. that they had more power as human beings than that. So, this was just one more element in that process. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:42:16 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again In a message dated 5/8/2004 12:11:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. The > Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly what > happened. Xena dying on the cross had nothing to do with it. > As I said in another post, we differ on that conclusion. Xena's *being* (not necessarily dying) on the cross was needed to set things in motion -- both her "true" fate and Gabs' becoming the Gabinator as she had in Ides. If Xena had been killed (or successful) fighting the guards, Gabs might not've destroyed the loom. Even if she had, it might've meant a different outcome without the act Caesar chose to change things. Yes, that sounds like gobbledegook, but that seems to be the premise of the ep. - -- Ife - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:42:21 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again In a message dated 5/7/2004 7:50:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >As I've pointed out, Xena says neither that she has to die on the cross, > >nor that being on it would restore the real world. > > Oh, I thought that was the point of your argument. Obviously I misread. > But if *that* wasn't the reason, why was she there? >> She hated the role Caesar and his cross played in who she became. She needed to accept both as part of the "real" fabric of her life, of also making her who she became as Reformed Xena. (Reminiscent of Dreamworker) Her decision wasn't just about Caesar's world in general. More important for her personally, it was about accepting and letting go of her hatred for what helped make her who she was supposed to be. > > >> What we differ on is whether she had any grounds for making that > > >>assumption. In fact, Gabs was nearer to getting it 'right' on this > >>occasion than Xena - another very odd circumstance, since Xena was the > >>expert > >>on godly institutions, not Gabby.>> > > > >I think they were both right -- possibly unintentionally so. It seems Xena > >needed to get on the cross (for her own reasons > > At the risk of starting it all again - what reasons were those? If not > what > I suggested above.<< See my response above. > > >and to spur Gabs into action) > >in order for Gabs' rage (ooo, that's a turnabout) to be > >successful. It seems both events were needed to restore the real world. > > Well, we don't know that. In fact, burning the loom would appear to be the > > necessary and sufficient thing. Xena could have done that perfectly well > herself instead of getting crucified. >> Not if she wanted to rise above -- rather than hang (ironically) on to her hatred of Caesar and the cross. Not if she wanted to try to duplicate the act that Caesar chose to eliminate in creating his world. Xena's destroying the loom would've been an act of desperation, as it was for Gabs, whereas Xena had reason to believe that getting on the cross was the "right" action. Obviously, second-guessing what happens in eps is what we often do. I'm simply saying that, in Fates, it seemed that events happened "precisely" as they needed to (including Xena on the cross) for things to work out. At least, that's what I saw. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:42:22 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] S4-6 DVDs For some reason I hadn't realized that all the remaining DVDs would be released at once. I got the following notice from that Xena Circle fan club ( casey@m80im.com ). -- Ife Xena: Warrior Princess Seasons Four, Five and Six DVDs are NOW AVAILABLE for June delivery at the OFFICIAL STORE!!! Yep, that's right! In June you can actually be the proud owner of ALL Xena Season DVDs! If you can only buy one Season right now (out of Four, Five and Six), that's o.k. You can score yourself a Bobblehead! Buying 2 DVD sets will get you a Chakram Robe, 3 DVD sets will get you a Chakram Jewelry Box and buying the entire Xena: Warrior Princess DVD Collection (Seasons One - Six) will get you a FREE Chakram Wall Clock and Mirror Set! Click Here for all the amazing deals at XenaCatalog.com! Xena Season Four DVD In Stores Everywhere June 15th! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:44:59 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again In a message dated 5/8/2004 9:40:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, spri0037@tc.umn.edu writes: > It occurs to me reading this discussion, that the destruction of the > loom was part of the whole getting rid of the god/desses - their being > killed off, or depowered in some way, part of which started at the very > beginning of the series with Xena's attitude, and later (and in this > episode) Gabrielle's, that they didn't want to depend on the gods for > their choices. that they had more power as human beings than that. So, > this was just one more element in that process. > > You've certainly got a point there. Seems the part of "fate" they kept was what mortals themselves determine. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 18:05:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/7/2004 7:50:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > >As I've pointed out, Xena says neither that she has to die on the cross, > > >nor that being on it would restore the real world. > > > > Oh, I thought that was the point of your argument. Obviously I misread. > > But if *that* wasn't the reason, why was she there? >> > > She hated the role Caesar and his cross played in who she became. She > needed to accept both as part of the "real" fabric of her life, of also > making her who she became as Reformed Xena. (Reminiscent of Dreamworker) > Her decision wasn't just about Caesar's world in general. More important > for her personally, it was about accepting and letting go of her hatred for > what helped make her who she was supposed to be. Oh dear, that's way too convoluted and metaphysical for me. So in order to stop hating Caesar she had to let him crucify her all over again? I'd rather harbour a good healthy dose of hatred, any day But anyway, Xena 'accepting' Caesar and his cross or not, had nothing to do with the setting up of Caesar's world. Caesar set that up without consulting Xena. And furthermore, 'accepting' the role that Caesar and his cross played, doesn't mean she has to go and do it all over again! (snip) > > >and to spur Gabs into action) > > >in order for Gabs' rage (ooo, that's a turnabout) to be > > >successful. It seems both events were needed to restore the real world. > > > > Well, we don't know that. In fact, burning the loom would appear to be > > the > > > > necessary and sufficient thing. Xena could have done that perfectly > > well herself instead of getting crucified. >> > > Not if she wanted to rise above -- rather than hang (ironically) on to her > hatred of Caesar and the cross. Not if she wanted to try to duplicate the > act that Caesar chose to eliminate in creating his world. Xena's > destroying the loom would've been an act of desperation, as it was for > Gabs, whereas Xena had reason to believe that getting on the cross was the > "right" action. Obviously, second-guessing what happens in eps is what we > often do. I'm simply saying that, in Fates, it seemed that events happened > "precisely" as they needed to (including Xena on the cross) for things to > work out. At least, that's what I saw. > > -- Ife So, in effect, Xena _had_ to go and get crucified in order to 'save the world' ? That this had to happen precisely as ordered? That, to me, flies right in the face of what Xena (and Hercules) always said, that we make our own fate. It also offends my sense of justice - that Fate said nasty loathsome evil Caesar was going to manage to crucify Xena, one way or another, come hell or high water, and there was no way she could duck. (It also conflicts with my philosophy of life, which is 'Shit happens'. There's nothing in my philosophy that says you're not allowed to grab a shovel ;) 'Oh thou, who didst with pitfall and with gin Beset the Road I was to wander in Thou wilt not with Predestination round Enmesh me, and impute my Fall to Sin ?' (couldn't resist that one ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 18:54:00 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/8/2004 12:11:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. The > > Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly what > > happened. Xena dying on the cross had nothing to do with it. > > As I said in another post, we differ on that conclusion. Xena's *being* > (not necessarily dying) on the cross was needed to set things in motion -- > both her "true" fate and Gabs' becoming the Gabinator as she had in Ides. > If Xena had been killed (or successful) fighting the guards, Gabs might > not've destroyed the loom. Even if she had, it might've meant a different > outcome without the act Caesar chose to change things. Yes, that sounds > like gobbledegook, but that seems to be the premise of the ep. > > -- Ife 'The premise is gobbledegook' ? Yep. :) Really, for Xena to voluntarily go and get herself crucified, would require some very, very strong and well-reasoned and well-supported 'build-up'. Which was noticeably absent from the ep. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 18:55:02 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:41, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > Janice Stewart wrote: > >No. Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. The > >Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly what > >happened. > > It occurs to me reading this discussion, that the destruction of the > loom was part of the whole getting rid of the god/desses - their being > killed off, or depowered in some way, part of which started at the very > beginning of the series with Xena's attitude, and later (and in this > episode) Gabrielle's, that they didn't want to depend on the gods for > their choices. that they had more power as human beings than that. So, > this was just one more element in that process. > > Lilli Well, by this stage, the Fates were about the only - what's the right word? - 'godly' isn't quite it - but anyway, about the only godly powers left. At least so far as the Greek pantheon was concerned. Since Xena had already destroyed most of the Greek gods, and the Furies. (I guess Ares and Aphrodite were still around, by kind courtesy of Xena, possibly along with a few obscure also-rans like Apollo and Eros who, if they had any sense, were staying as obscure and unobtrusive as they could ;) Actually, though, if Gabs destroyed the alternate Fates' loom, surely that would leave the original Fates and their loom in the 'real' world, still functional? (Though this does depend on the exact nature of the way in which the world switched tracks when Caesar sabotaged the loom). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:49:48 -0500 From: "Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Sat, 8 May 2004 18:45:33 +1200 cr wrote: > On Sat, 08 May 2004 15:33, Janice Stewart wrote: > > cr wrote: > > > Well, I could see how Caesar's world got created. And how it got > > > destroyed > > > - - Gabby wrecked the loom. (Though why that restored the 'real' world > > > instead of just causing total global annihilation I don't know). And, > > > Xena > > > was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would restore the 'real' > > > world. What we differ on is whether she had any grounds for making > > > that assumption. In fact, Gabs was nearer to getting it 'right' on > > > this occasion than Xena - another very odd circumstance, since Xena was > > > the expert on godly institutions, not Gabby. > > > > Why do you say Xena was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would > > restore the 'real' world? That's exactly what happened. > > > > XWPacolyte > > Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. > > No. Gabby destroying the loom was what restored the 'real' world. The > Fates told her it would destroy the current world and that's exactly what > happened. Xena dying on the cross had nothing to do with it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Gabby would have been motivated to take out the loom had Xena not submitted to the crucifixion. So, in my view, Xena's dying on the cross had everything to do with it. > Why the 'real' world popped back into existence, instead of just nothingness, > was never adequately explained. In particular, why the 'real' world > resumed at the end of the previous episode, rather than reverting to the end > of the flashback in 'Destiny', I don't know. > > Look at it this way - either (1) there is just one world, or (2) there are > two, or (3) there are many (in which case there must be an infinite number, > since every critical 'moment' must spawn at least two separate diverging > timelines). > > Caesar mucking with the loom diverted the timeline into a new path, in which > case either > (1) none of the post-Destiny events in the 'real' world ever happened, since > Caesar changed the timeline. This would be consistent with the pattern of > events in Armageddon Now when Iolaus saved Alcmene's life in 'the past' and > the alternate timeline ceased to exist. In such a case, when Gabs destroyed > the loom and the world exploded, there would be no 'real' world for Xena and > Gabs to fall back into. > (3) an infinity of worlds existed, branching off each time a critical event > happened. In such a case, there are two hurdles to overcome: one, > destroying the loom in Caesar's world destroyed that timeline and all its > inhabitants. Why would that Xena and Gabs survive and transfer to another > timeline? And in any case, there were already a perfectly good Xena and > Gabs existing in that timeline (what we've been calling the 'real world') - > wouldn't they have something to say about being replaced by a couple of > imports from Caesar's world? And another thing - even if that happened, why > would Xena and Gabs end up in just the one timeline we've been following, > rather than one of the infinite number of alternatives? The odds of that > are one in a kazillion. > (2) possibly, there are just two timelines, the 'original' one, and Caesar's > world. I suppose this could occur if Caesar was the only one ever to mess > with the loom (otherwise there would be more). However, after Caesar messed > with the loom and changed the timeline, why would the 'original' timeline > persist? I think this would collapse back to case (1). And besides, if > there are two worlds, why would the Caesars world Xena and Gabs take priority > over the 'real' ones? > > cr I agree that it's puzzling as to how the 'real' world was restored by Gabby destroying the loom. Maybe someone else can find some logic in it, but I sure can't. XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 15:16:06 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris in Parade Today's (May 9, 2004) Parade syndicated supplement has an article on Kathryn Morris by James Brady. Among other things it says, "She's also done a lot of TV, ranging from a villainous sexpot on Xena: WArrior Princess to ---" Brady, who does one of these profiles a week, probably is so busy collecting gossip he doesn't have time to watch the TV he should. The column also says Morris is in a new film, Mindhunters, coming out in June, about FBI profilers who realize that one of their own group is a serial killer. I believe that sort of thing happens all the time. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 16:28:17 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris in Parade >The column also says Morris is in a new film, Mindhunters, coming out in >June, about FBI profilers >who realize that one of their own group is a >serial killer. >I believe that sort of thing happens all the time. LOL! You know, I was writing a movie script with this plot (though the profiler who became a serial killer, didn't realize she had become the killer she had hunted and captured ten years ago), but then I started doing massive research on the subject of profilers and serial killers (hey, anyone can throw a script together, but I believe in being believable). Man, I learned a LOT! So these kinds of movies now annoy me, cause they are SO far fetched! Like "Twisted" or "Taking Lives." I used to really enjoy these types of movies, and now I just nit pick all the bad cliches like signatures or good guy turned evil (though there ARE cases that KINDA fall into this, like the serial killer who was a cop, or the police officer that studied Ted Bundy so much, he started seeing the guy as his friend), but of course, there are no cases of a good cop becoming a serial killer due to his work. Though, if this script is based on the real case that I mentioned above, well, that's okay, cause the guy was sick BEFORE he got the cop job. Why did I write this? ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #131 **************************************