From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #129 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, May 8 2004 Volume 04 : Number 129 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again ["Janice Stewart" Errrmm... do you mean, you think we agree that there _isn't_ a > commonly-agreed-upon standard ? If so, I agree with you ;) >> Yes. > >>But - we knew that X &G weren't going to stay dead. (Btw, they died > >>remarkably quickly - if it hadn't been for the angelic stuff, I would > >>have assumed they were merely unconscious, not dead yet). So it wasn't > >>'defeat', > >>any more than every season-ending cliff-hanger is. >> > > > >I think you bring up another good reason for the "angel bit" -- to indicate > >that they were dead. Again, I just didn't want that image of them hanging > >on those crosses, possibly suffering, through the whole summer. As to > >"defeated," it's the same reaction others had to Xena on the cross in > >Fates. She's hanging there, helpless, which is not something I like to > >see. > > Hardly! Don't confuse 'Xena time' with real time! The next season > invariably takes up right where the previous one leaves off. There is no > gap. >. Um, not sure what you mean by "confuse." Last thing I would've seen was Xena on the cross. My imagination doesn't shut off just because the season ends. And while I can imagine all sorts of nice ways for her to get off the cross the next season, I don't have a "true" replacement picture in my head until I see it. Even with the DC of AFIN (and the fact that I liked the original ending), I still have a hard time replacing that image of Xena fading out when the sun sets. Brrrr. > The difference between Xena's 'defeat' in Ides and the one in Fates was > (IMO) > that in Fates she meekly accepted defeat. I never saw that in Ides. >> Understood. > > >Sure, I can rationalize whatever I want, to explain why hanging there might > >not mean much in the long run. But at the time, I felt much better > >actually seeing some indication that she'd "risen above" the cross, had not > >been defeated by it. The "angel bit" did that for me in Ides. Her > >voluntarily getting on the cross, yelling Gabs' name and inspiring Gabs to > >destroy the loom (thus succeeeding in defeating Caesar) did that for me in > >Fates. > > Well, it seems, in both cases, the bits you like are the precise bits I > _don't_ like. ;) >> Apparently. > I meant, the ep seemed to revolve around Xena's attraction for Gabrielle - > a > person who (in this ep) she's only just met. If one accepts that they were > > 'fated' to be together, and regards that as the main driver of the episode, > I > expect some of the improbabilities diminish. As you know, that's not a > view > I'm in sympathy with >> Again, I saw it as more about Xena's need to accept what happened long before she met Gabs (i.e., that her fate was tied to what she hated -- Caesar and his cross). The attraction thing was actually the most problematic of all to me, even though I understand Gabs was there to represent the love Xena needed to also embrace, in order to become "real" Xena. I don't really believe in the soulmate concept presented in XWP, except for X&G. I just had to accept that they'd somehow feel a connection "just because." What made it all work for me (logically) in the end was focusing on Caesar's choice for Xena's "defining moment," which he believed was his as well. Again, I liked the "romance story" all right, but it felt superimposed (integrated into?) what I saw as the main story about destiny -- Xena's in particular. > And, Xena > was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would restore the 'real' > world. >> As I've pointed out, Xena says neither that she has to die on the cross, nor that being on it would restore the real world. What we differ on is whether she had any grounds for making that > > assumption. In fact, Gabs was nearer to getting it 'right' on this > occasion than Xena - another very odd circumstance, since Xena was the > expert > on godly institutions, not Gabby.>> I think they were both right -- possibly unintentionally so. It seems Xena needed to get on the cross (for her own reasons and to spur Gabs into action) in order for Gabs' rage (ooo, that's a turnabout) to be successful. It seems both events were needed to restore the real world. > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:55:53 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again On Fri, 07 May 2004 17:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >I think you bring up another good reason for the "angel bit" -- to > > > indicate that they were dead. Again, I just didn't want that image of > > > them hanging on those crosses, possibly suffering, through the whole > > > summer. As to "defeated," it's the same reaction others had to Xena on > > > the cross in Fates. She's hanging there, helpless, which is not > > > something I like to see. > > > > Hardly! Don't confuse 'Xena time' with real time! The next season > > invariably takes up right where the previous one leaves off. There is > > no gap. >. > > Um, not sure what you mean by "confuse." Last thing I would've seen was > Xena on the cross. My imagination doesn't shut off just because the season > ends. And while I can imagine all sorts of nice ways for her to get off the > cross the next season, I don't have a "true" replacement picture in my head > until I see it. Yup, but that's what a cliffhanger ending is all about. "How on earth will they get out of this?" > Even with the DC of AFIN (and the fact that I liked the > original ending), I still have a hard time replacing that image of Xena > fading out when the sun sets. Brrrr. But then we saw her face faintly in the sunset. That was a magic moment. > > I meant, the ep seemed to revolve around Xena's attraction for Gabrielle > > - a > > person who (in this ep) she's only just met. If one accepts that they > > were > > 'fated' to be together, and regards that as the main driver of the > > episode, I > > expect some of the improbabilities diminish. As you know, that's not a > > view > > I'm in sympathy with >> > > Again, I saw it as more about Xena's need to accept what happened long > before she met Gabs (i.e., that her fate was tied to what she hated -- > Caesar and his cross). The attraction thing was actually the most > problematic of all to me, even though I understand Gabs was there to > represent the love Xena needed to also embrace, in order to become "real" > Xena. I don't really believe in the soulmate concept presented in XWP, > except for X&G. I just had to accept that they'd somehow feel a connection > "just because." Whereas, as you can see, I didn't accept it :) > What made it all work for me (logically) in the end was > focusing on Caesar's choice for Xena's "defining moment," which he believed > was his as well. Again, I liked the "romance story" all right, but it felt > superimposed (integrated into?) what I saw as the main story about destiny > -- Xena's in particular. > > And, Xena > > was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would restore the 'real' > > world. >> > > As I've pointed out, Xena says neither that she has to die on the cross, > nor that being on it would restore the real world. Oh, I thought that was the point of your argument. Obviously I misread. But if *that* wasn't the reason, why was she there? > > What we differ on is whether she had any grounds for making that > > > assumption. In fact, Gabs was nearer to getting it 'right' on this > > occasion than Xena - another very odd circumstance, since Xena was the > > expert > > on godly institutions, not Gabby.>> > > I think they were both right -- possibly unintentionally so. It seems Xena > needed to get on the cross (for her own reasons At the risk of starting it all again - what reasons were those? If not what I suggested above. > and to spur Gabs into action) > in order for Gabs' rage (ooo, that's a turnabout) to be > successful. It seems both events were needed to restore the real world. Well, we don't know that. In fact, burning the loom would appear to be the necessary and sufficient thing. Xena could have done that perfectly well herself instead of getting crucified. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:33:35 -0500 From: "Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Fates Again cr wrote: > Well, I could see how Caesar's world got created. And how it got destroyed > - - Gabby wrecked the loom. (Though why that restored the 'real' world > instead of just causing total global annihilation I don't know). And, Xena > was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would restore the 'real' > world. What we differ on is whether she had any grounds for making that > assumption. In fact, Gabs was nearer to getting it 'right' on this > occasion than Xena - another very odd circumstance, since Xena was the expert > on godly institutions, not Gabby. Why do you say Xena was in error in assuming that dying on the cross would restore the 'real' world? That's exactly what happened. XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #129 **************************************