From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #115 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, April 24 2004 Volume 04 : Number 115 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually [KTL ] RE: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question ["Liz" ] [chakram-refugees] OT: Song about Annie Oakley TV series reminded me of Xena ["Daniel T. Miller" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question KT: > > > So if you knew that was Tartarus (which looked JUST like the Tartarus in > > Mortal Beloved) they why did you think Xena was in Tartarus? Lower > > Tartarus? The sub-basement? >> IFE: > > I saw Xena in flames in Destiny, all right? Flames suggested Tartarus. Go > figure. Christian hell. Not Tartarus. The Tartarus we've always seen in the series is located in caves, not in an open landscape like where Xena was in Destiny. No flames, but lots of moaning. And larval like couch potatoes watching old television reruns. KT: > > > A simple pop-psych explanation is that it mirrors Xena's soul. Eruptions > > of hate, guilt and despair all brewing and burping away in her internal > > landscape. And her hanging on her cross, dead centered in the mire of her > > ire. >> > IFE: > Thank you. Was that so hard (for you, anyway)? LOL! Nooooooo, but I'm just wondering why you think I HAVE to answer your questions? Did someone die and make you boss? I don't think soooooo. C'mon Ife--snap out of your grandiose delusions! Get a grip! Answer your OWN damn questions. It wouldn't be the first time. (smirk) As I mentioned, someone else > talked about it as a continuation of Xena's dream/hallucination state. *sigh* That was me. I > actually like that explanation better than worrying about whether someone else > had "assigned" her to Tartarus at that point. I'm quite content with that > answer. > I don't like it so well as my theory that it's a unique "waiting room" for Xena. That all the powers, all the gods are just kind of holding their breath and waiting to see what she decides to do. I definitely don't think there's any indication she was "assigned" to Tartarus. That isn't Tartarus. It's a totally unique, never before seen place. And Xena as a unique character who gets into unique situations is a very common theme of this show. So it fits. KT: > > > > I would love it though to hear from Rob what he thought that place was. > > > IFE: > If he's smart, he'll say he likes the ambiguity of it possibly reflecting > Xena's interior "landscape." Has a nicer ring to it than, "We needed to keep > Xena 'dead' until Lucy recovered from her accident. I asked, 'How can we do this > interestingly?' We came up with fire. Seemed appropriate for some reason, > not to mention more dramatic than leaving her against the blue screen." Heh. > But this wasn't a place where Xena stayed dead for very long. She's there for about only about 2 minutes of the show. I believe that when she says to M'Lila, "I've got to go back" and her faux body slumps down, she returns to the physical realm and immediately leaps into Autolycus' body. Her body ain't usable at the moment. It has to be reanimated by chewing down some ambrosia. (Yet another unique thing about Xena--when other people eat ambrosia, they become gods. Xena just gets restored from mostly dead but re-animatable.) And Autolycus is the guy who can get the dagger that's the key to getting the ambrosia, so there she leaps! And that's where Rob kept her hanging around until Lucy's butt was ready for action again. They did reshoot the ending of Destiny and also switched the order of eps, slipping Hudson in as Xena also in Ten Little Warlords for a while BEFORE Destiny aired. And I think they made For Him The Bell Tolls also as a covering-for-no-Lucy ep. But the only ep that actually addresses the fact that Xena is not alive and hanging around in her own body because she died in Destiny is The Quest. KT > > > > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:55:36 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually > At 09:49 PM 4/17/2004 -0800, KTL wrote > > >Had this come in some other "regular" season, I don't know if it would be > >welcomed at all, never mind so loved by > > > Although there was much controversy in "India arc" especially in how it > related to Gabrielle, I think TPTB managed to accomplish the part of the " > Xena's journey" they set out on. I think that's absolutely right. It was just so subtle that most of us didn't pick up on it at first. That while Gabrielle was going on a phase of her coming of age, Xena was going on her own "middle-aged crisis" journey. But once they showed Krishna and Xena talking about her journey of that year, why, it all became clear as day. And I think it was excellent work on their part--setting up a problem without an obvious nor expected solution. Until we get to it. And (for me) it's just a perfect denouement to Xena's season four problem. > > It did well by Xena, but it didn't do well by Gabrielle. I never saw anything wrong with her trying a new spiritual path. Young people do that. And certainly a young person like Gabrielle who has experienced the horrible events that Dahok and Hope brought upon her and Xena certainly SHOULD be questioning what her place in life is and what might bring meaning and peace to her existence. The fact that she couldn't do it, that she was unable to follow that path, didn't make her wrong in trying it on. I know many people really hated that side trip of Gabrielle's. I never did. It made sense to me. And it made sense for the character that the creative staff had shown us over the years for her to do something like this. I think so anyway. I'm beginning to > come up with a thought (this is usually not a good thing). The original > conception of the series was "Xena's Journey", Gabrielle was an > afterthought. "Gabrielle's journey" became "interesting", but wasn't > "canon". So her "journey" was somewhat sporadic with different > writers. Yes. But also her character and her reactions to situations were shaped to show us what was going on with Xena. Gabrielle's character changed in mostly minor (but not always, sometimes major) ways, depending on what Xena was doing in an ep or an arc. Gabrielle acted differently in some eps than she did in other because they wanted to get at something in Xena and show us what Xena was like or how she was moving along on her journey. Xena's journey was far more consistant and was on a much straighter and stronger trajectory than Gabrielle's. Because Xena's Journey was the ignition of the show, the backbone of the whole six year story. You don't mess around with the main goal much, you don't change it, drop it or ignore it halfway through the story. Well, you can, but then your story sucks... By the end of the series, "their journey together" became the > series. I don't see that. Because what was their journey together? To do good? That's pretty nebulous. How do we know when they've achieved their goal? Epic journeys do not hinge upon characters just doing good. They have a very specific goal to accomplish. Odysseus needs to get home and reclaim his kingdom. Frodo and his companions have to destroy the ring by taking it to a particular place. Luke and Princess Leia have to overthrow their father's evil empire. Xena's journey, her search for atonement, had a very definite goal, which had been created and made necessary by her past. And this is what the series was about--Xena's journey to accomplish her goal. Now sure, the hero ALWAYS has companions on her/his journey towards her goal. But the journey is always at it's deepest level, a private one. And one that always hinges upon the character of the hero. We all walk alone through life. Because we have to make the decisions and effect the changes that lead us to our goal. Nobody else can do that for us. Sure, our friends and loved ones make our journey easier or more pleasant, our enemies make it more "interesting". But WE have to accomplish our goal, finish our journey within our own heart. Through the strength of our own characters. Every journey is an individual piece of work. Not every journey is successful. But in epics they usually are. (After gobs of tragedies...) There's lots of back-sliding and obstacles. But that's what makes these journeys so absorbing for us. We root for them to get to their goal. And find real satisfaction when they do. The series finale created controversy, because it attempted to end > "Xena's journey" but continue "Gabrielle's journey" and stuffed in "their > journey together". I think you're right about this being the reason beind many of the Anti-FIN fans not liking FIN. Their outrage was about splitting Xena and Gabrielle up. But I would say that that's because they lost sight of the story. Or, rather they had for many years tried to impose their own view of the story over Rob's. I think Rob and RJ (and Lucy and Renee) never lost sight of the main thread of the story which was Xena's quest for atonement. (As we hear them saying in the various commentaries from the DVDs.) And this is exactly why the series ended the way it did. With Xena making a sacrifice so great that she achieved that atonement. And thus finished the journey she'd been on from episode one on. KT > > > LeeD, Warrior (Ret.) Jester Philosopher? ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:58:05 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question > > So if you knew that was Tartarus (which looked JUST like the Tartarus in > > Mortal Beloved) they why did you think Xena was in Tartarus? Lower > > Tartarus? The sub-basement? You know, I liked the original Hades MUCH > > better than the wienie guy they got at the end. The original Hades was > > HOT! > > Tartarus had several different appearances - or, presumably, many different > areas. For example, the area that Xena was trapped in in Intimate Strangers > was different again. > > cr > But it was still an enclosed cave. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:10:43 +0100 From: "Liz" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question Snipped the snippy bits KT: They did reshoot the ending of Destiny and also switched the order of eps, slipping Hudson in as Xena also in Ten Little Warlords for a while BEFORE Destiny aired. And I think they made For Him The Bell Tolls also as a covering-for-no-Lucy ep. And for THAT alone, I would go back in time to prevent that damn horse slipping on the concrete...... Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:22:37 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Brief XWP Mention in "O" Um, I found the reference I asked about. It came from another list. I don't think the poster will mind my communicating it here. -- Ife <> ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:31:46 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question > Snipped the snippy bits Hey! I worked HARD on those snippy bits! > KT: > They did reshoot the ending of Destiny and also switched the order of eps, > slipping Hudson in as Xena also in Ten Little Warlords for a while BEFORE > Destiny aired. And I think they made For Him The Bell Tolls also as a > covering-for-no-Lucy ep. > > > And for THAT alone, I would go back in time to prevent that damn horse > slipping on the concrete...... > > Sojourner > > Amen. I think the only good parts in that one was when Gabrielle felt she had to physically insert herself in between Joxer and his smitten girlfriend as they're trying to sleep (was it?) in that cave and when Joxer kisses Gabrielle and then she swoons. And then slaps herself in the face in horror. Very funny. BUT certainly not enough to over the rest of the ep and make it worth slipping that turkey back into the VCR ever again... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:44:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Daniel T. Miller" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Song about Annie Oakley TV series reminded me of Xena Last Friday, I stopped at my local Borders and watched part of a performance of a musician named Susan Urban. One of the songs she did was "Annie Oakley." It is not about the real person, but about how when Urban was a little girl, she loved watching the 50's TV series. She explained in her introduction that the show was one of the most major experiences in her childhood. TV was full of cowboy heroes back then, but Annie Oakley was the only cowgirl heroine. She caught the bad guys all by herself. Though, Susan Urban did mention a deputy male sidekick. I think he was comic relief, not a possible romance. Way before my time. :~) Of course, I thought of the significance of when X:WP premiered to the little girls who watched it, and if some those girls might produce some songs, when they are in middle-age. (They are teenagers now!) So, that would be sometime in the 2030bs. :~) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:12:24 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Jinx jinxed--Xena too? Variety , April 19, 2004, p. 22 of the supplement on United Artists studio, has a picture of Halle Beery as Jinx from her James Bond film, with a caption reading -- "Plans to spin off Halle Berry's Jinx character from "Die Another Day" are on hold, partly due to such femme [female] actioners as the "Charlie's Angels" and "Tomb Raider" sequels underperforming." The accompanying article says plans for a Jinx spinoff have "collapsed" rather than being "on hold." That sounds bad for the prospects for a Xena movie. But I never expected it to happen anyway. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:20:07 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] LL at NZ fest Variety, April 19, 2004, p. 18 has an article, really a long ad, from the New Zealand Film Commission, titled "New Zealand women & film." It says, "The fifth biennial World Summit on Women in Film and Television International (WIFTI) will be held in Auckland, New Zealand, from April 21-24, 2004. The event, which aims to advance professional development and achievement for women in the screen industry, is expected to attract about 350 delegates from around the world. The summit patron will be Lucy Lawless, from the famed television series Xena: Warrior Princess, which was also filmed in New Zealand. There will be host nation promotions, including a "Showcasing New Zealand" luncheon and a history of women filmmakers in New Zealand." They have a small, familiar picture of Xena and Gabrielle. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:19:03 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually In a message dated 4/23/2004 2:57:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > But also her character and her reactions to situations were shaped to > show us what was going on with Xena. Gabrielle's character changed in > mostly minor (but not always, sometimes major) ways, depending on what > Xena was doing in an ep or an arc. Gabrielle acted differently in some eps > than she did in other because they wanted to get at something in Xena and > show us what Xena was like or how she was moving along on her journey.>> I don't believe it! This is what I was *trying* to say about the major clues I had to Xena's inner conflictedness during season four. That Xena's responses to Gabrielle (a mixture of the vision, Gabs' quest and self-quesioning that Xena might've had anyway) told me about the emotions Xena was experiencing. Now, I recognize that you feel there were also clues in how she acted otherwise. I'm not re-arguing that argument. I'm only saying that what you're saying here is what I was saying (whew!) about season four, whether you agree in that instance or not. Admittedly, I hadn't focused much on Gabs up to that point, so it surprised me when I noticed it. And just to be clear, I am *not* saying Xena's behavior was *caused* by Gabs, but that her interactions with Gabs were a reflection of what was going on inside Xena. Lee Daley wrote: << By the end of the series, "their journey together" became the > series. >> KT responded (some snippage): > Xena's journey, her search for atonement, had a very definite goal, which > had been created and made necessary by her past. And this is what the > series was about--Xena's journey to accomplish her goal. > > Now sure, the hero ALWAYS has companions on her/his journey towards her > goal. But the journey is always at it's deepest level, a private one. And > one that always hinges upon the character of the hero. >> I do understand what some fans mean when they talk about X&G's journey "together." Just as XWP pushed th envelope on whom can be called a "hero," I think it pushed the envelope on what the hero does and how. Gabs became integral to Xena's goal, identified with and critical to it far more than a "side kick." Indeed, I saw Gabs' quest as helping Xena achieve hers. Sure, Gabs had her tangents, but certainly after "Ides," there was no question that she would ever abandon Xena for any "way" that was more important. Now, there are those who argue that Gabs' quest was separate (even the point of XWP), or that the relationship became the quest. But what I saw (which is why I could accept AFIN) was two people committed to one person's quest. I saw it as a shared (rather than simply "private") quest. When it was over, both people had accomplished what they'd hoped could be achieved through their partnership. Gabs was now free to pursue another quest. When I first began watching, I was drawn to the solitary hero thing. By the end, I liked that Gabs had become far more than the "witness" or "voice" simply there to explain Xena's actions. As much as I still believed Xena's honor was more important than anything (which she satisfied in the end), I liked that Gabs' participation and final response reflected the love (for self and for others) that made Xena's achievement possible. That's why AFIN was a triumph to me for Xena, Gabs and the relationship. I don't think it's simply a rationalization, as my bias would've been (and still is) to see Xena go out as I saw her come in -- fully self-responsible, independent and driven by honor. Perhaps that is the traditional archetype. Perhaps that is the raison d'etre for the show. Nevertheless, I saw a final model that *also* included mutual responsibility and love. A completed quest worthy of both partners. It's no longer important to me whether that was (or became) the point of the series. Nor how well that fits "traditional" hero stories. The reality for me is that, no matter how hard I try, I simply can't see Xena's quest without Gabrielle -- a journey they made *together.* Frankly, for some reason, I feel good about that. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:19:01 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Song about Annie Oakley TV series reminded me of X... In a message dated 4/23/2004 3:54:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, d_t_miller@yahoo.com writes: > TV > was full of cowboy heroes back then, but Annie Oakley > was the only cowgirl heroine. She caught the bad guys > all by herself. Ah, yes. Probably my first female action hero -- on TV anyway. Wonder Woman was still in comics. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:19:05 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question In a message dated 4/23/2004 1:47:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > IFE: > > > >I saw Xena in flames in Destiny, all right? Flames suggested Tartarus. Go > >figure. > > > Christian hell. Not Tartarus. The Tartarus we've always seen in the series > is located in caves, not in an open landscape like where Xena was in > Destiny. No flames, but lots of moaning. And larval like couch potatoes > watching old television reruns. >> Um, I never was much for the Christian hell. I'd seen the XWP version of Elysia and of Tartarus. The latter seemed a better "fit" in terms of where Xena was. Given XWP's proclivity for changing things up on us, I didn't expect exact consistency. Nor had I seen some place for dead souls called "Not Bad but Not Good Either." Even if it was just in her head, I was pretty sure she didn't see herself some place pleasant. Even if it was some "holding" area, it didn't seem particularly "neutral," in terms of between Elysia and Tartarus. All I wanted to know was why she might've been in an unpleasant place vs. a pleasant or more neutral place. I've gotten answers to that, none of which convince me she was in a "good" or "neutral" place. > > IFE: > >Thank you. Was that so hard (for you, anyway)? > > > > LOL! Nooooooo, but I'm just wondering why you think I HAVE to answer your > questions? Did someone die and make you boss? I don't think soooooo. C'mon > Ife--snap out of your grandiose delusions! Get a grip! Answer your OWN > damn questions. It wouldn't be the first time. (smirk) >> True, but it's not my gandiosity, so much as my experience with your ability to come up with answers. Some of which are actually good. Nearly all of which are provocative. (I mean, in the sense of provoking thought. Teeth-gnashing too, but that's secondary. ) > As I mentioned, someone else > >talked about it as a continuation of Xena's dream/hallucination state. > > > *sigh* That was me. >> LOL! See? I *do* listen. > > > I > >actually like that explanation better than worrying about whether someone > else > >had "assigned" her to Tartarus at that point. I'm quite content with that > >answer. > > > > I don't like it so well as my theory that it's a unique "waiting room" > for Xena. That all the powers, all the gods are just kind of holding their > breath and waiting to see what she decides to do. I definitely don't think > there's any indication she was "assigned" to Tartarus. That isn't > Tartarus. It's a totally unique, never before seen place. > > And Xena as a unique character who gets into unique situations is a very > common theme of this show. So it fits. >> Well, you certainly have the right to pick whichever of your theories you like. However, as I pointed out, the dream theory takes care of the assignation objection. But go ahead -- stick to the Xena Only Waiting Room theory. You can always pretend the fire was actually M'Lila's form of support and protection -- her version of Grinhilda's "love flames." How's that? Oh, wow, I did answer my own question! - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #115 **************************************