From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #97 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, April 7 2004 Volume 04 : Number 097 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: A Page from RenPic/Claire Stansfield; Relativity [cr ] [chakram-refugees] The upraised swords of season three [KTL ] RE: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] The upraised swords of season three [IfeRae@aol.co] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:44:15 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt In a message dated 4/5/2004 3:17:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > >I don't think the appearance of Callisto, Ares, and et al had anything to > do > >with people who Xena hated. These are the people who let hate rule them. > >What I saw the point being was that if she and Gabrielle didn't overcome > they > >will become like Callisto, Caesar, Ares - they will be people who will be > >destroyed by theit hatred. > > > >CherylA > > > But I really do think that all these folks had parts in the rift, though > Caesar's inclusion to me is the most tenuous. And I think Xena's > forgive me song, especially the line about "Forgive me and you'll > discover, too, That the love of your love is you", is a somewhat torturous > way of saying, "When you forgive others and let go of the hatred inside, > then you can love yourself again." > I think the way it was done leaves it open to both interpretations. To me, those chosen all represented various forms of hate in some way. Callisto and Ming T'ien believed they were twisted by Xena at an early age. Young Xena became twisted because of Caesar, especially his role in M'Lila's death. Later, all would become dedicated to destroying Xena, just as she ended up destroying them, with consequences for others (e.g., Lao Ma, Solan, Gabrielle). Kfrafstar and Ares were vehicles for, and fed off of, the kind of rage associated with hate. THE DELIVERER begins with Gabs and Xena discussing how small things become large. In BITTER SUITE we have what sounds like The Deliverer singing about how hate begins very small and grows into "the star." (Literally in Xena's case. Literally within Gabs, through Hope.) All the people mentioned above were like cracks in the foundation of X&G's relationship -- seemingly unrelated, yet ultimately contributing to the major chasm that opened up between the two. I'm not sure that's the sole reason for showing them, as I think they symbolized the larger issue of how seemingly innocent deceptions or "insignificant" instances of mistrust could blow up in your face. They also show how "it takes two to tango" (picture Ares dancing with Xena in BS). X&G were complicit, just as they were victims, in what happened. Krafstar says Dahak needed both Gabs' innocence and Xena's rage (presumably directed toward Caesar in this instance) to spawn Hope, who perhaps best symbolized the direct product of X&G's combined betrayals. (Possibly a reason she's not shown as one of the characters whose involvement led up to rift events, despite her later contributions.) It's when Krafstar goads Xena into rushing him -- leaving her defensive position in front of Gabs -- that he becomes the Deliverer and truly gains the upper hand, enabling what happens to Gabs on the altar. When X&G fell over that cliff in BS, they had (as Cheryl suggests) become what they feared as well as had been attracted to (in the forms of Krafstar and Ares). As KT says, they needed to let that go in order to move forward individually and in terms of their relationship. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:44:18 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question In a message dated 4/5/2004 12:15:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:58, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > >When Xena "dies" at the end of Destiny, she appears to go to Tartarus. I > >don't remember any past discussions about that. Any old or new theories? > > > >- Ife > > Ummm, let me see - this was pre Really Evil Xena, wasn't it? Up till then > she was merely a local warlord / pirate with big ambitions. I guess that > would have been enough, though. > No, she meets ghost M'Lila after her reformation and after a good season and a half of ... good. Is it dependent on where *she* believes she belongs, where maybe she's picturing herself in context of what she became? Is it real, and she hadn't earned Elysia as either Pirate Xena or recently Reformed Xena? In the commentary, RT is as usual focused on recycling the dang cross, so simply mentions Tartarus in passing. It could simply be that the fire was more dramatic, as opposed to a more neutral backdrop, but I'm thinking RT & Co. actually pictured Xena there for some reason. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:44:17 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) In a message dated 4/5/2004 2:28:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora .uaf.edu writes: > Ife: > >Hmmm, I had a different reading of that. (Go figure.) I agree with the > >pain, but I'm not sure about the "facade" part, which suggests to me that > it's > >more about pretending and denial. > > > > > I believe that saying, "It was a good day of fighting" IS about > pretending and denial. As a form of self protection. So perhaps, creating > a "refuge for the soul" is a better way to say this than to call it > "creating a facade". I think that Xena is admitting here that all soldiers > deep down understand the horror, futility and terrible destruction of war. > On people's lives and souls, on the land, on property, on lifestock, on > society, on everything. Okay, I can go with that. I love "refuge of the soul," because it gets to the heart of that moment for me. It's that element of faith that's more poignant to me, rather than the acknowledgement of the hard realities of life. It reminded me of that moment in RETURN OF CALLISTO, when Xena prays for Gabs' light not to go out -- uncertain some god would respond, yet needing an inspirational force to do what she herself could not. It reminded me of all the moments when "good" people - not just soldiers -- question the point of enduring, observing or causing something tragic -- which suggests the thin line between denial, rationalization, belief, and faith. Yes, Xena had long lived with focusing on the positives of horrible situations, despite experiencing the negative consequences. But the "purpose" was usually short-lived, practical and not necessarily altruistic. Gabs was always making Xena aware of the warrior's personal part in the "greater good," to have faith that what was inside Xena was as important to the existence of a "higher meaning" as what she did. Yet here she was faced with a Gabs who'd begun to question herself and her actions, along with the higher meaning that made the day more worthwhile than tragic. Xena didn't deliver her pep talk as someone who accepted (as she might once have) the bad as "all there is" or "that's life, get over it." Nor did she deliver it as someone pretending, or absolutely certain, that the good outweighed the bad beyond saving the people she and Gabs decided to protect. To me she had one foot in the dirt and one in that space where you have to believe there's something that will lead you in the "right" direction. For her, this "crisis of faith" could be seen as an improvement (or weakness to some viewers) over when she had both feet in the dirt. For Gabs, it could be seen as a retreat (or maturation) from her innocent days of having both feet planted in her ideals. As I said earlier, I think the pain reflected on Xena's face was because she *had* to believe, in order to see the good in Gabrielle's betrayal of her "innocent" ideals, to bringing some solace to Gabs. The uncertainty was real, but I think the expression of faith was as well. Is it "pretending" when one sees, focuses on, a "good reason" for what happens? Is it simply denial of the bad aspects? Isn't faith, among other things, "a refuge for the soul," a way to be lifted above (have a "purpose" beyond) earthly woes? Obviously, I can't answer those questions, even as they relate to Xena. I guess I'm saying I feel her emotions at that moment reflected both the genuine hope/belief, as well as the doubts, of those who "fight the good fight" in a "bad" world. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 17:55:56 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:02, KTL wrote: > > I don't think that Ares hates people. (Except Xena, after he realizes > that he's in love with her and it's unreciprocated in season five.) Even then, I don't think he really hates her. He's frustrated and angry with her, but never hating her. > He's > just the God of War. He doesn't kill from hate, just from doing his job. > Or as he says in one ep, because he's who he is, the "scorpian" of the > fable. "It's what I do". Nice line, stolen by Xena at the end of the ep. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:43:31 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: A Page from RenPic/Claire Stansfield; Relativity On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 01:58, Ribaud, Lynn wrote: > I'm a bit surprised no-one has gotten a comment in about this by > now... > > While watching the "Merlin" program on SciFi this past Saturday, I > was immediately taken by Miranda Richardson's Queen Mab. She could be a > fair "homage" (and I'm using that term in the tongue-in-cheek way RenPics > themselves did) to Alti, with both the dark makeup around the eyes, and the > raspy voice, except for the date of the show -- a Hallmark production of > 1998. It is likely it came out before the Sin Trade eps did. I'd say that it was effective in both cases, but the end results were very different. That is, IMO, Alti looked far more physically dangerous and evil than Mab. I put that down to Claire's looks and ability. > Oh, and a further remark to cr's comment on use of the idea of > relativity. The relativity of Einstein says that it is *not* all relative > -- while some experiences can seem to differ for different observers, there > are ways to show that in fact they all witnessed the same thing (that is to > say, to formally show that each observer could not have seen other than > what they did). There is nothing at all subjective about it. This is > generally royally screwed up by people misusing the term. As cr wrote, > misuse of fancy terms can get you quite the opposite result of that > intended. > Lynn Thanks. :) 'Relativity' does have other legitimate meanings - as in the trade unions' use of it to signify preserving the proportionality between salaries - but (IMO) the different meanings of this or many other words should not be wilfully confused. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:35:53 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 17:44, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/5/2004 12:15:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:58, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >When Xena "dies" at the end of Destiny, she appears to go to Tartarus. > > > I don't remember any past discussions about that. Any old or new > > > theories? > > > > > >- Ife > > > > Ummm, let me see - this was pre Really Evil Xena, wasn't it? Up till > > then she was merely a local warlord / pirate with big ambitions. I > > guess that would have been enough, though. > > No, she meets ghost M'Lila after her reformation and after a good season > and a half of ... good. Oh, right. So the 'launchpad' for that cross/Tartarus scene was not 'Ten Winters Ago' but 'now'. My recollection had got confused. > Is it dependent on where *she* believes she > belongs, where maybe she's picturing herself in context of what she became? > Is it real, and she hadn't earned Elysia as either Pirate Xena or recently > Reformed Xena? In the commentary, RT is as usual focused on recycling the > dang cross, so simply mentions Tartarus in passing. It could simply be > that the fire was more dramatic, as opposed to a more neutral backdrop, but > I'm thinking RT & Co. actually pictured Xena there for some reason. > > -- Ife Maybe it just looked cool? ;) I think yours is the best explanation - Xena still thought Tartarus was where she was likely to be going. I suppose there's no clue to be gained from Intimate Strangers - Xena did end up in Tartarus, but only because Callisto was there and did the switch on her (with Ares' help). OTOH, Hades didn't seem to think she had been totally mis-allocated. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:27:28 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] The upraised swords of season three I was watching some scenes from various season three eps tonight. Watched the end of Maternal Instincts and found myself just grieving again along with Xena. Lucy is so magnificent playing Xena at the pyre of her son. Anyway, I also watched a piece of the Furies and remembered that I noticed while first running through much of the season when I first got the DVDs, (gasping breath) that there is a repeated image in a number of eps. It's that of a person standing over another prone person with an upraised sword about to skewer them. Xena thus threatens Cyrene in The Furies, Meridian threatens Krafstar in The Deliverer, Xena threatens Hope in Gabrielle's Hope and Xena not only threatens but for the first time follows through in skewering Gabrielle in Bitter Suite. I don't remember more. (Outside of a fight scene, I mean.) It's certainly an arresting image. And I wonder if it was deliberately being used as a signature image for this season or if these four times were merely coincidences. Lucy and Renee of course both forgot that Xena skewered Gabrielle. I love these moments of sudden surprise for them. Smile. They NEED to get on some Xena lists and have their memories prodded. (On some Xena lists that ain't ALL that would get prodded--har, har, har.) Also, while watching Antony and Cleopatra a few months ago, it suddenly struck me that the blood dropping into the milk bath prefigures the ink/blood dropping into the water in FIN. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:06:26 -0400 From: "Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question cr wrote: > On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 17:44, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/5/2004 12:15:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:58, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > When Xena "dies" at the end of Destiny, she appears to > > > > go to Tartarus. > > > > I don't remember any past discussions about that. Any > > > > old or new > > > > theories? > > > > > > > >- Ife > > > > > > Ummm, let me see - this was pre Really Evil Xena, wasn't > > > it? Up till > > > then she was merely a local warlord / pirate with big > > > ambitions. I > > > guess that would have been enough, though. > > > > No, she meets ghost M'Lila after her reformation and after > > a good season > > and a half of ... good. > > Oh, right. So the 'launchpad' for that cross/Tartarus scene > was not 'Ten > Winters Ago' but 'now'. My recollection had got confused. > > > Is it dependent on where *she* believes she > > belongs, where maybe she's picturing herself in context of > > what she became? > > Is it real, and she hadn't earned Elysia as either Pirate > > Xena or recently > > Reformed Xena? In the commentary, RT is as usual focused on > > recycling the > > dang cross, so simply mentions Tartarus in passing. It > > could simply be > > that the fire was more dramatic, as opposed to a more > > neutral backdrop, but > > I'm thinking RT & Co. actually pictured Xena there for some reason. > > > > -- Ife > > Maybe it just looked cool? ;) It's been a while since I read the script, but this explanation, as I recall, is the best fit. What was described there is, I think, a circular area bounded by a representation of the chakram. It wasn't what got shot, but still, whatever the image really was meant to be (either as written or as shot, and regardless of my hazy memory), it wasn't Tartarus but instead was a place unique to that ep and scene. Lynn Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:33:05 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Ribaud, Lynn wrote: > > cr wrote: > > Maybe it just looked cool? ;) > > It's been a while since I read the script, but this explanation, as > I recall, is the best fit. What was described there is, I think, a circular > area bounded by a representation of the chakram. It wasn't what got shot, > but still, whatever the image really was meant to be (either as written or > as shot, and regardless of my hazy memory), it wasn't Tartarus but instead > was a place unique to that ep and scene. > > > Lynn > > Lynn Ribaud I have a teasing memory that someone (maybe staff, maybe a poster) said it was yet another homage shot. Of course I don't remember the movie it was supposed to be reprised from. I suspect that it was meant to be a holding area for Xena. That the gods, the Fates, all those who had a hand in the life (and death) of this "remarkable woman" as Lao Ma recognized and called her, knew absoluely that it wasn't her time to shuffle off this earthly coil, no, not even to go to Buffalo. It seems most likely to be M'Lila or the agents she works for (AKA her god/s) who sent her there. Since she knows where Xena is and can come to her and communicate telepathically with her. And manages to convince her to go back. Otherwise, it could to be an extended moment of Xena's life passing before her eyes at the moment of her death. With not only scenes from her life but a questioning of herself about what that life meant. And a reflecion on whether her mission in this life was fulfilled. With Xena projecting M'Lila into the role of the wise, calm, "adult" voice in Xena's internal dialogue. It was intriguing to me because though Niklios (sp?), an excellent, expert healer had declared Xena dead, she was not yet totally gone. But then of course, that's just Xena, able to leap tall ships in a single bound, stop speeding arrows with her teeth and make her own choice on whether mortal wounds will make her die or not. The world wasn't ready to let her go, her mission in this reincarnation was not finished, the contract for next season had been renewed. So she was sent to the waiting room while the gods, fate, destiny, watched to see what ending to this scene she would pick. As always, for Xena, things are just a little bit different than they are for just plain folks. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 00:09:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question In a message dated 4/6/2004 10:40:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > It seems most likely to be M'Lila or the agents she works for (AKA her > god/s) who sent her there. Since she knows where Xena is and can come to > her and communicate telepathically with her. And manages to convince her > to go back. >> Oh, wow, I hadn't thought about that aspect -- who may have sent M'Lila and why. > > Otherwise, it could to be an extended moment of Xena's life passing before > her eyes at the moment of her death. With not only scenes from her life > but a questioning of herself about what that life meant. And a reflecion > on whether her mission in this life was fulfilled. With Xena projecting > M'Lila into the role of the wise, calm, "adult" voice in Xena's internal > dialogue. >> So this could've all been in Xena's head. Another "wow." I like that very much. Gets around sticky issues like why she appeared among flames and where M'Lila came from. In a way, Xena would be honoring M'Lila by imagining what she might say to Xena at this point, reminding Xena once again that it wasn't her time, because she had a purpose that hadn't been fulfilled yet. Xena would've also imagined what Gabs would say. Yes, I like that she carried within her those inspirations for coming back. > > It was intriguing to me because though Niklios (sp?), an excellent, expert > healer had declared Xena dead, she was not yet totally gone. But then of > course, that's just Xena, able to leap tall ships in a single bound, stop > speeding arrows with her teeth and make her own choice on whether mortal > wounds will make her die or not. >. Yes, Niklio was right, in that she had, at that moment decided to die. No doubt her body stopped functioning at the point, so he didn't know that she changed her mind. > As always, for Xena, things are just a little bit different than they are > for just plain folks. >> Actually, Gabs also decided to come back in "Doctor," so I'm not sure the intent was to show Xena as that unusual in terms of the "will to live" factor. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 00:09:45 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The upraised swords of season three In a message dated 4/6/2004 2:39:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > It's certainly an arresting image. And I wonder if > it was deliberately being used as a signature image for this season or if > these four times were merely coincidences. > Very intriguing. What popped into my mind were S1-2 images of swords pointed horizontally at folks for a few moments -- Xena at Toris. Gabs at Callisto and that guy in Greater Good. Xena at Ares as Cyrene and Atrius. (Hey! Ares played both parents at one point. Hmmmm. Oh. Back to your question.) Xena at M'Lila, Joxer at various folks in Bell Tolls. Xena at Velesca and the Horde leader. Toris the main person I think may have raised his sword above Cortes. Overall, the feeling I got was more defensive or a standoff that allowed possible conversation. You may be right, that in S3 the overall feeling was more of the desire to attack, sometimes in "out of their minds" situations. Certainly the raised sword suggests impending death more than the horizontal one. That may have added to (and represented) the tension of S3, especially since many of the prospective victim were close to the blade wielder. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #97 *************************************