From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #96 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, April 6 2004 Volume 04 : Number 096 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lord of the rings vs Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt & Bitter Suite [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] OT: A Page from RenPic/Claire Stansfield; Relativity ["Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, cr wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:49, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > I.e., would you have found her as "interesting" a character, if, as Ife > > said, had looked like Minya? Over 6 seasons? > > Do NOT confuse 'good looks' with 'interesting'. They are completely > separate qualities. If an actor has both, it's a bonus. > > Minya's a bad example to use because she is just not interesting as a > character, to me. A Xena wannabe. - --Sorry, bad choice of words. Substitute "Minya" with "Allison Wall". If Allison Wall had played X instead of LL, would you have wanted to watch her over 6 seasons? Remember, the _character_ is written and is interesting because of (mostly) the writing. Allison Wall is an interesting actress, IMO. But she's not good-looking. - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 20:52:51 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, cr wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:42, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > And you also give sweeping generalizations about eps, mostly "I liked it" > > or "I didn't like it", but it still all comes down to subjectivity, so > > what's the difference? > > > "It was good" (or "It was exploitative") implies that it is so by some > objective and hence definable standard. - --Who says? Haven't you heard of Einstein? Relativity? Since when did Ebert and Roper represent The Truth or Objectivity? Whenever folks discuss TV/film, it's ALL an opinion, IMO. Of course, you give examples to back it up, but it all comes down to interpretation (like Ife and I have been saying)......;P When Ife explained my interpretation of "exploitative", it was all IHO, based on what she thought MO was. Someone else's interpretation will be different, but I'm sure we'd basically understand English words enough to know generally what "exploitative" meant. Whether we'd agree the examples were appropriate, though, is another matter...... My objection was about defining a word I'm sure we all know. We can always argue about whether we agree or not on the examples. - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:56:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:58, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > When Xena "dies" at the end of Destiny, she appears to go to Tartarus. I > don't remember any past discussions about that. Any old or new theories? > > - Ife Ummm, let me see - this was pre Really Evil Xena, wasn't it? Up till then she was merely a local warlord / pirate with big ambitions. I guess that would have been enough, though. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:30:49 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41, Cheryl Ande wrote: > KT wrote: > > I don't think I wrote this--I think the whole thing is cr's: So do I. - cr > > > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than > > > > guilt. Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason > > > > to > > > > feel guilty about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of > > > > reason to hate all five. And, "Hate is the star". > > > > > > > > Well spotted, thanks! > > I don't think the appearance of Callisto, Ares, and et al had anything to > do with people who Xena hated. These are the people who let hate rule > them. What I saw the point being was that if she and Gabrielle didn't > overcome they will become like Callisto, Caesar, Ares - they will be people > who will be destroyed by theit hatred. > > CherylA Hmm, that's an interesting viewpoint, they could serve as hideous examples to be avoided. But they looked more like Xena's personal demons, rather than just relatively impersonal 'examples'. At least to me, in that scene. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 19:06:06 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lord of the rings vs Xena On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 01:33, Cheryl LaScola wrote: > cr: > While I understand your take on the LOTR characters, including the > irritating Pippin, I would recommend watching all 3 movies before > judging. That's a longish while to wait..... or at least, quite a bit of screen time to get through. Probably as long (in terms of screen time) as Joxer, for instance. > Other than Xena I did not have much interest in the fantasy genre and > went to see LOTR mostly because it was set in NZ. Me too. As I said, I'm probably the last person in NZ to watch it. :) > Anyway, the "Return of the King" brought it all home and had me on the > edge of my seat wondering if any of them would succumb to evil's will or > who would die. I fell in love with all the characters... even Pippin. > I even cried. And to me, Sean Astin deserved at least an Academy > nomination (along with Ian McKellen). But you will have to judge for > yourself, just wait until the last installment before making the call. > > CJL Yes, same happens often in TV series. Though, to make a comparison with Xena, though I'm well-known not to be a Season 1 fan, I would have to say that Xena was interesting as a character right from SotP. Of course, as with any TV series, RenPics couldn't afford to let the characters build up slowly, they needed to grab viewers right from the start. Whereas a movie like Fellowship of the Ring could afford to have the first hour being slow, nobody's going to walk out or change channels in the first hour. Which is not to say that made it a better movie, at least IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 19:31:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 18:35, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, cr wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:49, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > I.e., would you have found her as "interesting" a character, if, as Ife > > > said, had looked like Minya? Over 6 seasons? > > > > Do NOT confuse 'good looks' with 'interesting'. They are completely > > separate qualities. If an actor has both, it's a bonus. > > > > Minya's a bad example to use because she is just not interesting as a > > character, to me. A Xena wannabe. > > --Sorry, bad choice of words. > > Substitute "Minya" with "Allison Wall". If Allison Wall had played X > instead of LL, would you have wanted to watch her over 6 seasons? > > Remember, the _character_ is written and is interesting because of > (mostly) the writing. > > Allison Wall is an interesting actress, IMO. But she's not good-looking. > > --Jackie OK. I find it a little hard to picture Alison-Wall-as-Xena since I have a mental image of Alison-Wall-as-Minya to distract me. But anyway, much of Xena's appeal came from Lucy's acting. I don't believe in 'running down' actors, and I think Alison Wall is a perfectly good actress, but she just doesn't have the same appeal as Lucy, to me. If Alison had played Xena, I might well have watched over six seasons, but probably not with the same degree of interest. I'd like to find (as a counter-example) a plain-looking actress but with Lucy's intensity (or whatever it is Lucy brought to the role). But I can't call one to mind. Glenda Jackson, maybe, but I just can't visualise her as an action hero. So maybe I'll have to think of a good-looking actress (plenty of those) but without Lucy's intensity (also plenty of those, I think). Umm, Michelle Pfeiffer, say, or Kim Basinger, or Tawny Kitaen. Would I have watched one of them as Xena for six seasons? Same answer - yes, but not with the same degeree of interest. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 19:49:56 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 18:52, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, cr wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:42, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > And you also give sweeping generalizations about eps, mostly "I liked > > > it" or "I didn't like it", but it still all comes down to subjectivity, > > > so what's the difference? > > > > "It was good" (or "It was exploitative") implies that it is so by some > > objective and hence definable standard. > > --Who says? English grammar says. "It was good" purports to be a statement of fact. Just like "It was blue" or "It was six feet long". OTOH, "I liked it" is explicitly a statement of opinion. > Haven't you heard of Einstein? Relativity? Please do _not_ confuse scientific concepts which are precisely mathematically defined - as Einstein's principles of Special and General Relativity are - with the completely different and totally unrelated concept which I assume you're referring to. Nothing pisses off scientists (or engineers) more than to have a scientific concept misused, misquoted or misinterpreted presumably because it sounds high-tech or intellectual. > Since when did Ebert and Roper represent The Truth or Objectivity? Who? > Whenever folks discuss TV/film, it's ALL an opinion, IMO. Of course, you > give examples to back it up, but it all comes down to interpretation (like > Ife and I have been saying)......;P Of course. Since when did I say otherwise? > When Ife explained my interpretation of "exploitative", it was all IHO, > based on what she thought MO was. Someone else's interpretation will be > different, but I'm sure we'd basically understand English words enough to > know generally what "exploitative" meant. Whether we'd agree the > examples were appropriate, though, is another matter...... > > My objection was about defining a word I'm sure we all know. We can > always argue about whether we agree or not on the examples. > > --Jackie Well, you still haven't defined it, so I still have no idea quite what you think it means. And it's the sort of loaded word which can mean very different things to different people. Like 'Politically Correct'. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 01:25:22 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) > You know, I hadn't connected it the way you may be suggesting -- that the > insecurities resulting from the vision fed into questions she was finally > letting > surface about herself. Oh my god--the light dawns! ;-> That however, is not the reason I'm replying to this after taking myself off this thread. This is why: KT: > > Watch Xena's face and listen to her voice as she says the line, > > "Otherwise, what's the point?" She's totally distraught, she's in deep > > pain, her voice cracks as she asks, "What's the point?" It's very obvious > > that she knows she's got this facade put up to explain why so many good > > people die everyday in wars that they had no personal input into starting. > > And that only this facade makes it possible to go out there day after day > > and draw your sword and face the "enemy" and either kill or be killed. >> > Ife: > Hmmm, I had a different reading of that. (Go figure.) I agree with the > pain, but I'm not sure about the "facade" part, which suggests to me that it's > more about pretending and denial. I believe that saying, "It was a good day of fighting" IS about pretending and denial. As a form of self protection. So perhaps, creating a "refuge for the soul" is a better way to say this than to call it "creating a facade". I think that Xena is admitting here that all soldiers deep down understand the horror, futility and terrible destruction of war. On people's lives and souls, on the land, on property, on lifestock, on society, on everything. And Xena's wandering around looking for a fight. Yes, she's protecting innocents much of the time but innocents die in many of the episodes also. So a soldier has to find something to retreat behind, to find some glimmer of meaning in what happened that day and in that battle. And Sears came up with the phrase, "It was a good day of fighting." What exactly does that say? It certainly doesn't relate to the horror of the dead bodies on the battlefield nor does it address the waste and it sure doesn't claim that the war is over. Sears is an army brat and a lot of his stories are about campaigns. And I imagine he's thought a lot about how soldiers feel and how they function and how they survive killing others while trying to keep their humanity intact. And when Xena says his line, Lucy shows that she's definitely aware that it's a cold and mostly false comfort. And one other thing--when looking back over my posts on this thread, I ran across a paragraph where I also said that Xena was now including Gabrielle in her plans more. But it was a specific reference to "When In Rome". And I believe that Xena let Gabrielle in as an active participant in playing Caesar in that only because her blood innocence was no longer something to worry about--it was long gone. So--why not use her in a situation where her part could lead directly to someone's death. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 01:44:00 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt & Bitter Suite On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 Brule31x63@aol.com wrote: Yoooo-hooooooo! > KT writes: > > "But you know, I wonder now why the heck Hope wasn't in that > set of "things to release your hate over". Certainly both X&G had reasons > to deeply hate Hope. All I can figure is that maybe we were being told > that there's no reason for Gabrielle to regret killing that little demon > and there's no reason for Xena to give up her hatred towards her. Their > actions towards her were appropriate perhaps? Because at this point, > they think she's dead and they've saved the world from Dahok. > > Just seems odd that when the grrls have to release their hatred of some of > their enemies, that Callisto is part of that package and yet Hope isn't. > > KT" > > Practically, Hope wasn't there because they would have had to bring the > little girl actress back for just that scene. Good point! And of course, blowing up a child might be a little harsh even for XWP. For viewers of Hercules, Hope was > still active as the charred-one seen in `Apocolypse Now`. / > > They did have Khraftstar, though, so realistically, the whole of Dahak's > legacy WAS there through him. > Yesssssssss. But Hope was conspicuous in her absence I think. (Well, at least four years later when reviewing the ep again she is. grin.) > Also, Xena and Gabrielle were releasing HATE and, evidently, Hope was > hatred incarnate. Xena claimed that Gabrielle should have hated Hope from the > git-go; I'm not sure I agree that Xena wanted Gabrielle to hate Hope. She wanted her to see her more realistically than she did. But she also defended and protected Hope when Gabrielle asked her to, until Hope killed that knight. And I don't think Xena hated Hope until she killed Solon. Before then, Xena was just trying to stop her evil from existing and being a threat to the world. But after she offed Solon, yes, Xena DEFINITELY hated her. And yeah, I believe she expected Gabrielle to hate her too then. Gabrielle disagreed. At the time of `Bitter Suite`, the disagreement > over this point was resolved in Xena's favor. But, that did NOT involve > releasing hate; rather the obverse! I think, based on this, that > bringing Hope back for `Sacrifice` & `Family Affair` made a lot of > sense. This issue had NOT been resolved by `Bitter Suite`. Well I think that Hope not being in the line-up speaks to that. Her return created new complications. But apparently their hatred of Hope for killing Solon was something that was a proper response and one they didn't have to let go of before they could "graduate" from Illusia. > > Of course, Ming Tien returned, too, but then I think that while Xena had > confessed her deception to Gabrielle in Bitter Suite, she had not erased her own > hate. The episodes with MT's return weren't as well written, so it's harder > to draw conclusions. > Hell, I'd forgotten he even came back! Parts of seasons five and six are just a blur to me.... Well, I think that the hate they had to let go of all related to the rift experiences. Ares certainly comes back in the series also, as does Callisto. So on the other list, a conclusion that worked for me that was proposed by someone else, was that these characters had all played a part in heating up the rift. And the hatred and fury the grrls had to release was purely rift specific. Which is why Ares, Callisto, M'ing T'ien and Caesar could all come back hauling their non-rift same baggage and creating all their new problems. Makes sense to me, anyway. And therefore them not having to release their hatred of Hope indicates to me that it was okay that they didn't. > > Cleanthes > > "Drive my dead thoughts over the universe, > Like withered leaves, to quicken a new birth..." > .Shelley. KT Take me for a ride in your car, car, take me for a ride in your car, car. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 02:02:43 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt > KT wrote: > > > > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than > > > > guilt. Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason > to > > > > feel guilty about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of > reason > > > > to hate all five. And, "Hate is the star". > > > > > > > > Well spotted, thanks! > > I don't think the appearance of Callisto, Ares, and et al had anything to do > with people who Xena hated. These are the people who let hate rule them. > What I saw the point being was that if she and Gabrielle didn't overcome they > will become like Callisto, Caesar, Ares - they will be people who will be > destroyed by theit hatred. > > CherylA I don't think that Ares hates people. (Except Xena, after he realizes that he's in love with her and it's unreciprocated in season five.) He's just the God of War. He doesn't kill from hate, just from doing his job. Or as he says in one ep, because he's who he is, the "scorpian" of the fable. And I don't think Krafstar particularly hated people either. He was doing his god's mission. Like Seraphin later in Sacrifice. Krafstar wasn't killing people out of hatred--he was just following the rules that wll bring his god into the world to "save it". But I really do think that all these folks had parts in the rift, though Caesar's inclusion to me is the most tenuous. And I think Xena's forgive me song, especially the line about "Forgive me and you'll discover, too, That the love of your love is you", is a somewhat torturous way of saying, "When you forgive others and let go of the hatred inside, then you can love yourself again." KT Gabrielle: "Believe me. If I have to go the rest of my life without companionship, (lov)ing myself won't be a problem. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:58:21 -0400 From: "Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: A Page from RenPic/Claire Stansfield; Relativity I'm a bit surprised no-one has gotten a comment in about this by now... While watching the "Merlin" program on SciFi this past Saturday, I was immediately taken by Miranda Richardson's Queen Mab. She could be a fair "homage" (and I'm using that term in the tongue-in-cheek way RenPics themselves did) to Alti, with both the dark makeup around the eyes, and the raspy voice, except for the date of the show -- a Hallmark production of 1998. It is likely it came out before the Sin Trade eps did. Oh, and a further remark to cr's comment on use of the idea of relativity. The relativity of Einstein says that it is *not* all relative - -- while some experiences can seem to differ for different observers, there are ways to show that in fact they all witnessed the same thing (that is to say, to formally show that each observer could not have seen other than what they did). There is nothing at all subjective about it. This is generally royally screwed up by people misusing the term. As cr wrote, misuse of fancy terms can get you quite the opposite result of that intended. Lynn Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 07:35:03 -0700 From: "Kym Taborn" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: A Page from RenPic/Claire Stansfield; Relativity From: "Ribaud, Lynn" > I'm a bit surprised no-one has gotten a comment in about this by > now... > > While watching the "Merlin" program on SciFi this past Saturday, I > was immediately taken by Miranda Richardson's Queen Mab. She could be a > fair "homage" (and I'm using that term in the tongue-in-cheek way RenPics > themselves did) to Alti, with both the dark makeup around the eyes, and the > raspy voice, except for the date of the show -- a Hallmark production of > 1998. It is likely it came out before the Sin Trade eps did. From a Whoosh.org interview (issue 28) STANSFIELD: [09] Thank you. [both laugh] So that's how that all came about. I had just seen Merlin (TV miniseries, Steve Barron, 1998), at the time, and I thought Miranda Richardson did such a wonderful job as Mab. I asked Rob Tapert if I could play Alti like Mab, with the eye makeup and the whispery growl, and he said "Yeah!" I wanted to make it more scary and thought that was a way to do it. Whenever I get into that "wicked witch" mode I just "become" that evil character. In BETWEEN THE LINES I am so unbelievably evil, it's just beyond evil. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #96 *************************************