From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #95 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, April 5 2004 Volume 04 : Number 095 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] The Debt & Bitter Suite [Brule31x63@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 19:47:19 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) In a message dated 4/2/2004 7:53:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > No, just about everybody noticed the differences in Xena in regards to her > warrior expertise in Season Four. I remember endless debates on it on all > the lists I was on at the time. Along the lines of "What the FURK is going > on with Xena?!" > > But all the discussions I saw revolved around her sudden "failures" at her > job. I didn't see anyone else talk about her relationship with Gabrielle > suddenly being transformed. >> Yes, I too initially breezed past these "failures" without asking myself what made them so notable. Obviously, part of it was simply seeing her being so indecisive and getting her butt beat. But when I analyzed the situations where that occurred, nearly all were related to Gabs in some way. Xena was decisive about being locked up and when to fight back in prison. She was decisive and her normal skeptical, kick-butt self when fighting the Romans in a couple of eps, in her initial suspicions about Eli and Tataka, in going to Naima's rescue. Again, my point wasn't that her relationship with Gabs was "transformed." My point was that I saw Xena's conflictedness and warrior "failures" in how she reacted to situations involving Gabs, because of the vision. After The Way, I saw Xena resolving her conflictedness about the vision. Her protectiveness towards Gabs in Convert, Endgame and Ides was back to being based more on her instincts about the situation, on Gabs' peacenik thing -- not on Xena's internal quandries. Xena kicked butt (even when injured before defeating Najara in Convert) decisively. Indeed, in Ides, Xena was determined to fight, rather than run away from, the consequences of the vision. Those who spoke about Gabrielle (and there > > were some...) were mostly in an absolute tizzy about Gabrielle suddenly > becoming a peacenik.>> My apologies about snipping the rest about Gabs. Admittedly, I'm more interested in Xena and didn't think Gabs' quest had much to do with Xena's internal conflicts during this period. Protecting Gabs for whatever reason was never a "biggie" for Xena, once she accepted that Gabs would be at her side. > I remember that Gabrielle's turn towards not wanting to fight generated a > huge discussion on the lists about Pacificism. Some folks absolutely raged > at PacRen for "getting it wrong". I doubt very strongly that RJ, with his > great interests in comparative religions, philosophy and social movements, > would be so far off base in depicting "peace warriors". What these fans > missed I think was the fact that GABRIELLE got it wrong. She was more > committed to a life with Xena than to a life as a pacifist. So of course > she didn't get it right.>> Yes, excellent point. > > One thing I recently read on another list was very interesting--someone > suggested that the reason Gabrielle was such an "evil stepmother" to Eve > was that she was jealous that Eve DID get it right. That Eve could follow > Eli's Way so absolutely when Gabrielle had not been able to do so. I > thought that had a possible grain of truth in it. >> My response to that theory? When was she "evil" -- aside from whatever ill thoughts the Furies put in her head? She defended Eve, did her best to convince Xena that Eve would be okay. Heck, she risked her life to go chat with Eve, on the assumption that Eve would understand reason. It was only after Eve killed Joxer that Gabs came to the same conclusion Xena did after Hope killed that knight -- Eve was probably irredeemable. Just as Xena embraced her Way of the Warrior, I felt Gabs acknowledged that Eli's Way of Peace was not for her. "I *chose* the way of friendship" -- a friendship that might mean doing all sorts of things she didn't like. True, she might have wished she could've followed Eli, but I never saw any jealousy toward Eve because of that. I didn't even see jealously because of what happened with Hope, despite the obvious parallels and Gabs' regrets about Hope. > And again, this is just showing that Xena doesn't trust her twitchy senses > anymore. She KNOWS bad stuff is coming down in Paradise Found. She knows > right from the beginning that Najara is a big ol' phony. But instead of > walking away from her, she ASKS her for advice! It has nothing to do with > following where Gabrielle leads but everything to do with not trusting her > own abilities anymore. BECAUSE she learned in season three that perhaps > her old way of belief and the way she was living her life was totally > bogus in some ways. >> We're saying the same thing again -- that Xena's behavior was based on her own uncertainties, not on her belief that Gabs had become a wizened sage. The difference may be that I still see Xena as choosing to follow Gabs' lead in that situation, regardless of why, and against her twitchy instincts. It seems that you're saying Xena chose *not* to follow her own instincts and leave it at that. Just different ways of looking at it I guess. > >> Ife: > >>>In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs. The difference in > >>S4 > >>>is that Xena's the one choosing to leave. > >> > >> > >>She left her in The Debt. She left her in Maternal Instincts. She left her > >>at the temple in Forget me not, not knowing if Gabrielle would chose to > >>remember her and return to her or not. >> > > > > Those were all season 3. > > > Look up there at what you wrote. And I quote, "In the past, Xena left the > choice to leave up to Gabs." Is season 3 not the past of season 4? And in > those examples, Gabrielle is not choosing to leave, Xena is choosing to > leave her behind.>> I stand corrected. Once again, I think we saw those situations differently. Xena didn't want Gabs going, but said basically, "You couldn't interfere,' I felt Gabs *chose* to stay behind in Debt -- "I can't go with you." Xena: "I understand why you wouldn't want to go." In MI, Gabs walked away first, though it was certainly based on Xena's response. I never saw the temple thing as "leaving" Gabs, given the understanding that they'd meet up soon. Admittedly, I had more of a unilaterally and possibly long term or permanent situation in mind, more like when Gabs secretly decided to leave so Xena and "Atrius" could be together. I'm just saying I saw changes in how/why they left each other over the years, with Xena reverting back in season four to being apart permanently because *she* (not just a particular mission) would get Gabs killed. > > > I thought S4 was an aberration because of > >the vision, but we do have the *suicide missions* of Gurkhan and the Ring, > >where Xena leaves Gabs behind. > > > Exactly. Once again, the behavior that Xena is displaying towards > Gabrielle in season four, is typical behavior present in every other > season. There's nothing new about it. >> Yes, I see the S6 situations as being more "typical" -- tied to the dangerousness of the mission and/or protectiveness of Gabs. Initially, I saw Xena as afraid her warrior life would be dangerous for Gabs. That morphed into more of a calculated risk approach, where Xena tried to match Gabs' involvement with the situation (when possible). In season 4, Xena felt she had lost whatever control she had. "Every" situation could be "the one" that would lead to Gabs' death. Xena couldn't even be certain that leaving Gabs behind (temporarily or permanently) would stop the vision. How could she prepare for that? How could she use her warrior skills/instincts against this "enemy" that might not exist, might be unconquerable, might depend on what she did or might happen no matter what she did? What if even the "best" situation she left Gabs in (as with Najara or Aiden) had hidden dangers? That's the internal battle that to me was not the "typical" driving force for Xena's (generally unconflicted) decisions to leave Gabs behind. > > > IFE: > >I'm talking S4. I see the threat of Xena's past as being different from > her > >viewing herself as a bad influence in the present. > > I see Xena's past as being the reason she sees herself as a bad influence. > The whole show revolves around her making atonement for that past--her > quest is the underlying theme of the series. Her period of being Evil > Inner Child Xena is what shadows her whole life and what makes her think > she's so despicable a person. One whose past generates evil events in her > present. The consequences of which often fall hardest upon the good people > around her. >> Yes, Xena's past was always with her. More importantly, I t hink she recognized that whatever drew her to the choices she made then were still inside. In the past she wanted to be seen that way, used to like to see that part of her reflected in other people's eyes. Redeemed Xena couldn't change the past, but she could dedicate herself to fighting the part of her that hurt others "for no good reason." While she never forgot the past, she began to accept others' seeing her -- and seeing herself -- for the good that was also inside. I believe she felt she had something to teach Gabs about the greater good, about honor, loyalty, determination, courage. She drew on all that to teach the Baby Amazons. The irony is that Alti's vision shook that confidence, by once again suggesting that Xena could be a bad influence no matter what she did. > > > >> > >>I saw the indecisiveness with the rest of the world. Much less with > >>Gabrielle. She doesn't have to fight Gabrielle, so this loss of > >>confidence in herself as a warrior doesn't factor in her relationship with > >>her. >> > > > >It was more than just fighting. It was loss of confidence in her > instincts, > >her judgment, her focus. All of those were very much at play in > deferring to > >Gabs' initial openness to Aiden and Najara, to her wanting to leave Gabs > >behind. > > > That's all part of her "fighting". That's what her job is all about.>> As I say above (I think), I didn't see her having problems doing her job when it didn't involve Gabs. Also, again, I agree that it had to do with what was going on in her head, not what was going on in Gabs' head. > All of the things you bring up were present in every season. I just don't > see what you're seeing that is any different about their relationship in > season four. To me, it's as I said before, just the same-ol', same-ol'. >> Okay, I'm all for agree to disagree at this point. > In most other instances I can think of in S4 > >(Family Affair, Good Day, Past Imperfect, Daughter) prior to The Way, > Xena is her > >usual confident self -- except if she's worried about Gabs. > > > >-- Ife > > > Usual confident self? I don't see that. > > In Family Affair, Xena says, "I'm searching for answers too".>> I meant in the fighting department, in being decisive and focused on the enemy. I remember > writing when it first aired what a surprise it was to see Xena > actually > talking about her mission in terms of it being a mental journey of > self-discovery. She always in the past seemed to consider it mainly a > physical journey of atonement, of her having to DO things to try to make > up to her victims for her past viciousness. This is one of the first times > I think that she not only expresses her quest in terms of recreating > herself as a good person in her own internal landscape, as she was before > Cortez came to Amphipolis, but it also shows her regarding herself as a > pilgrim on that quest, seeking personal enlightenment, answers to her > questions so that she can regain that good soul she used to have. This is > VERY different to me.>> Great observation. I guess I experienced this progressively, beginning with Dreamworker. It was like an internal journey where she proved to herself she could fight the ghosts of her past that might draw her back, ovewhelm or discourage her from her new quest. On the other hand, she reconciled herself to the reality that she had to reclaim the part of her that made her strong enough to be as good (as well as bad) as she wanted. In eps like Path Not Takekn, Reckoning, Greater Good, and Destiny we get glimpses into what turned her on about warlording and why she fights the temptation to go back to that. I actually see S3 as the beinning of all sorts of self-questioning. As you pointed out awhile back, The Furies was very indicative of the internal turmoil ahead. Gabs' questions to Xena in Dirty Half Dozen about "Am I who I am or who you made me" are kind of echoed in Xena's reminiscence of Lao Ma's influence and certainty of Xena's future greatness. In DHD and Forgiven, we have chats about whether you're born bad and Xena's assurance to Tara that, no, you can recreate yourself every moment by what you do. Discussions tend to focus on "the rift," but not necessarily how the shaken faith in each other and loss of their children might've affected their view of what's imporant in life and what they'd come to take for granted. Funny, but in a way, Xena was always seeking enlightenment, soaking up whatever she could, but putting it to the wrong use. In season 3, gets to use Lao Ma's powers in a good way. I always saw her as on an internal quest, but I agree that I didn't see that externalized or developed the way we did in season four. > > At the time, I found it very refreshing that for once she put her own > journey on as spiritual and educational a level as Gabrielle's coming of > age journey. (This was of course, before people started beating her up.) > At any rate,it's the first reference we have to Xena's insecurity about > herself this season--that she's "looking for answers", no longer acting > (immediately) as if she knows all the answers.>> You know, I hadn't connected it the way you may be suggesting -- that the insecurities resulting from the vision fed into questions she was finally letting surface about herself. It's as if she'd put her head down to "do* good, just as she'd done bad, without allowing herself to think about it too much. Part of her openness to introspection may also be because she'd reached a higher level of comfort and confidence in her quest for good. It wasn't so much "Will or can I do good" anymore, so much as "What does the good I'm doing mean? Is it enough? Can I do what I need and be a warrior too? Can I achieve it without being brought to justice for my past crimes?" Admittedly, I didn't like seeing her lose her confidence and get beat up, but I saw it as an opportunity -- even a sign -- of growth. I was happy that she would reach a higher state, be stronger, as a result of her questions and search for answers that she might not want to hear or wouldn't have thought about before. You know I have an obsession with learning, so I found season 4 "refreshing" in the insecurities, fears, stumbles, mistakes, etc. that go along with gaining and practicing new knowledge. > << All this is for a reason. Otherwise, what's > the point? I was asking myself that same question when I first met you." > > Watch Xena's face and listen to her voice as she says the line, > "Otherwise, what's the point?" She's totally distraught, she's in deep > pain, her voice cracks as she asks, "What's the point?" It's very obvious > that she knows she's got this facade put up to explain why so many good > people die everyday in wars that they had no personal input into starting. > And that only this facade makes it possible to go out there day after day > and draw your sword and face the "enemy" and either kill or be killed. >> Hmmm, I had a different reading of that. (Go figure.) I agree with the pain, but I'm not sure about the "facade" part, which suggests to me that it's more about pretending and denial. I believe her when she's said on a number of occasions that Gabs brought "meaning" to her life, which is tantamount to giving meaning to what Xena does. Now she's got Gabs questioning the purpose of the fighting they do. It's like part of Xena has to keep doing it because that's what she does. Part is now past just putting her head down without worrying about the reason, but has gained confidence within herself and from Gabs that there is a "point" beyond the day to day bloody successes. Still another part is being beseiged with questions from within, because of the vision and in connection with Gabs' quest. It's like she finally believes there's a reason, wants desperately for Gabs to find some comfort in that, but can't say with assurance that she knows for sure what the point is. I saw this moment as very raw, real, honest. It combined a painfully acquired (and still fragile) faith, with acknowledgement that she couldn't prove her faith "true," that she could be wrong. Gabs was the one with idealized visions, who wanted good in "the big picture." The irony was that the best Xena could offer Gabs was to fall back on her own approach of taking it one day at a time, focusing on the good of the moment. I think Xena found it more painful precisely because she was the one who had to inspire Gabs to see the good -- the "point" -- in the moment, when Gabs' had always been the one to see the bright side to almost anything. Another of those role reversals I saw in S4. > > And of course in Daughter of Pomira we have one of the most overt signs of > Xena's new insecurity--when she almost gets beaten up by the dweeb of the > week. Good gods... >> That's another thing I don't see the same way. She's been thrown down, had her weapons knocked away by bad guys in the past (e.g., Cradle, Beware Greeks), when I don't think she gave two hoots about whether she ended up killing them or not. In Daughter, she was trying to show the villagers and Horde that things could be settled without anyone dying. Dweeb was a two-bit nuisance whose intrusion into the situation was totally unnecessary. I thought she had an, "Oh, crap, I don't want to kill this knucklehead" attitude about Dweeb, which is why she was so disgusted in the end when he forced the issue. I guess that's why I can't chalk this up as a sign of her conflictedness or insecurities. > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:11:26 EDT From: Brule31x63@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] The Debt & Bitter Suite KT writes: "But you know, I wonder now why the heck Hope wasn't in that set of "things to release your hate over". Certainly both X&G had reasons to deeply hate Hope. All I can figure is that maybe we were being told that there's no reason for Gabrielle to regret killing that little demon and there's no reason for Xena to give up her hatred towards her. Their actions towards her were appropriate perhaps? Because at this point, they think she's dead and they've saved the world from Dahok. Just seems odd that when the grrls have to release their hatred of some of their enemies, that Callisto is part of that package and yet Hope isn't. KT" Practically, Hope wasn't there because they would have had to bring the little girl actress back for just that scene. For viewers of Hercules, Hope was still active as the charred-one seen in `Apocolypse Now`. / They did have Khraftstar, though, so realistically, the whole of Dahak's legacy WAS there through him. Also, Xena and Gabrielle were releasing HATE and, evidently, Hope was hatred incarnate. Xena claimed that Gabrielle should have hated Hope from the git-go; Gabrielle disagreed. At the time of `Bitter Suite`, the disagreement over this point was resolved in Xena's favor. But, that did NOT involve releasing hate; rather the obverse! I think, based on this, that bringing Hope back for `Sacrifice` & `Family Affair` made a lot of sense. This issue had NOT been resolved by `Bitter Suite`. Of course, Ming Tien returned, too, but then I think that while Xena had confessed her deception to Gabrielle in Bitter Suite, she had not erased her own hate. The episodes with MT's return weren't as well written, so it's harder to draw conclusions. Cleanthes "Drive my dead thoughts over the universe, Like withered leaves, to quicken a new birth..." .Shelley. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:41:19 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debt KT wrote: I don't think I wrote this--I think the whole thing is cr's: > > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than > > > guilt. Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to > > > feel guilty about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason > > > to hate all five. And, "Hate is the star". > > > > > > Well spotted, thanks! I don't think the appearance of Callisto, Ares, and et al had anything to do with people who Xena hated. These are the people who let hate rule them. What I saw the point being was that if she and Gabrielle didn't overcome they will become like Callisto, Caesar, Ares - they will be people who will be destroyed by theit hatred. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 22:58:33 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Destiny Question When Xena "dies" at the end of Destiny, she appears to go to Tartarus. I don't remember any past discussions about that. Any old or new theories? - - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #95 *************************************