From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #93 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, April 3 2004 Volume 04 : Number 093 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Fw: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy in Celebrity Skin Issue #126 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:33:03 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: Fw: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:47, sgitzou@periaktoi.gr wrote: > > The actor's appearance is actually important for a role and a strange role > like Alti's. I think the one who imagined Alti gave more emfasis to unite > the costume with the face and the voice of the actress. She certainly has a very strong-featured face. > I think her size > would have been a final guide to the direction because this particular > role can be given as good from a tall actress as from a short one. We can't > imagine now the second option because we are used on the first one. I think > they chose Claire for her face and facial expressions and especially from > her voice. She has a wonderful phonetic (I don't know if it is the right > word) abilities. You mean that deep menacing growly voice she used? Yes, very effective. > Her height was an extrra benefit. She was directed to use > it by giving a special characteristic to the role. She was moving by > knowing her benefit of her height but she doesn't use it to win Xena with > it. If she was short she would have given to her role a move which would > have started from the earth and she would have moved to catch the victim or > the power from down. But now she used the opposite direction by starting > from up to down. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean there. > But I think without her face and voice and of course her > abilities us an actress (she is very talented) maybe she would not have > played the Alti. Oh, agreed. > cr: > > > > Hmm, let's see, I think Claire's size was apparent without being > > > > obtrusive, if that doesn't sound too obscure ;) > > I agree with that. > > I hope I don't confuse you too much > Sophia Only a little cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:17:09 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy in Celebrity Skin Issue #126 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Lee Daley wrote: > This hasn't aged long enough but........ Snorfle! But how true. I prefer to wait until a post is heading towards limburger city myself. Ife replied, addressing a lament over replies to somewhat "ripe" posts: > >In case you haven't noticed, that never stops us. Heck, KT answers stuff > >that's grown mold. Rule of thumb -- if Xena could come back from the > >dead, so > >can any topic that's been discussed. Those of us who write a lot have > >apparently dedicated our lives to supporting the resuscitation of anything > >remotely > >related to our favorite show. > Lee fell out thusly: > ROTFLMFAO > > As I always say "We will serve no wino before his time, and reply to no > post before it's time". > > > > LeeD, Warrior Jester Thanks, Lee. My feelings exactly. It's a spiritual endeaver, replying to posts. The time must be right and that awareness of the process of replying, when and how posts suddenly foment and rise to the top of the list to be answered, is mysterious, purely instinctive and totally illogical. The stunned mullet feeling some posts trail, whiffing like the end of the day in the Fulton Street Fish Market, creating eddies in their wake, making one murmer "Where the HELL did that idea come from?!", must be born, lived through and gradually muted. Some ideas, some stunned mullets, take more time to move from the infected, poisonous phase than others. And finally, aside from working through the spiritual feelings some posts engender, on a more prosaic level, one needs to have enough time in one's day to steal some to spend online. And for me, March is always a horrific month in work. Speaking of moldy posts, I hear the posts on "Xena's season four blues" saxaphoning out to me.... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:21:35 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) No doubt Ife wrote: > > I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up > > with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. She > > acquiesces to Gabs' arguments about the vision in Past Imperfect. She's > > glad Gab saves her in Locked Up. She hopes Gabs is right about finding > > meaning for herself through Njara, Aiden and in India. When she realizes > > some of those alternatives are frauds, she doesn't suggest that Gabs go > > back to Poteidaia. > cr replied: > I think it was more that Xena was preoccupied and confused, than that she was > actively following Gabs' lead. She woulda followed Joxer just as readily, > had he been there instead. > Exactly. Xena has almost never cared where she is. As we've discussed before, she's voluntarily homeless so a choice of "place" is not something that rates high with her. Usually, people call her somewhere, in order to get her to help them. In season three she kind of sends herself off to "help others from my depraved and flamingly horrific past" when she finds out from Kraftstar at the beginning of "The Deliverer" that Boudicca was taking on Caesar. This is something I only just realized when watching this ep on DVD. Xena gets REALLY interested when Kraftstar mentions that Boudicca is fighting Caesar. Xena says to him that he should sign her up on his list of mercenaries he's been recuiting to fight Caesar, because she's going to Britannia with him to help Boudicca--and to destroy Ceasar. Now I wonder if she was totally honest or somewhat scamming herself. Did she really want to help Boudicca take him out? Or was she primarily interested in taking the opportunity to right another of her "my bads" of the past by apologizing to Boudicca and helping her roust an invading force from her country. OR, did SHE want to take Caesar out and not let Boudicca have that glory? I think it was probably a mish-mosh of all of these things. At any rate, it definitely made her send herself to Britannia. And she dropped in on Cyrene a few times. To tell her about the changes in her life in Sins of the Past, to try to get some information out of her about her father in The Furies, to celebrate Gabrielle's birthday in Takes One to Know One. But mostly, Xena just wandered around, trailing Gabrielle and various heroes of the week. I never saw any indication that she cared where she was. She was the Wandering Princess as weel as the Warrior Princess. Snipped discussion on "Who's life (sentence) is it anyway?" But as I've said before, I LOVE this exchange from Locked up, Tied Down: Xena: "I try not to overanalyze my life, unlike some people." Gabrielle: "Some people say the unexamined life is not worth living." Xena: "Those people haven't lived MY life." (GOTTA be) cr saying: > > And Xena's defeat by Najara, who she would normally have wiped the floor with > - that was hardly her kick-butt self, was it? How did Gabs cause that? > > (I can hardly believe I'm arguing in *favour* of the little blonde kid..... > :) > Yup. Gotta be c. Cheerfully snipping the rest, I remain, Yours truly, KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:36:57 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) Well, while I'm here... Ife wrote: > > >True. My point here was that Xena usually preferred to err on the side of > > >caution (glass half empty) to protect Gabs, whereas Gabs was the one to > > urge > > >giving the benefit of the doubt. In S4, Xena tries to err more on the side > > of > > >hoping someone like Aiden or Njara will be good for Gabrielle. So we get > > to see > > >Xena being more of a follower, rather than taking charge and right off the > > >bat saying, "Gabs, this person seems too good to be true. I'm going to be > > >watching them like I did Hope." > > > > > > > > > Yeah--because she's totally insecure in herself. She's changed due to what > > happened to them in season three and specifically due to seeing the > > vision. >> > > > Grrrrr. That's what I said, darn it! What part of what I said are you > disagreeing with? But *I* said it first. So I'm not disagreeing with it, I'm just wondering why you're repeating it. Grin. > > > > > > We're both saying the behavior changes came because of Xena's > > >internal struggle. I'm simply taking it a step further to say that I saw > > her treat > > >Gabs differently as a result. > > > > > > Yes, I know. I didn't. >> > > Well, you kept saying Xena didn't do something because of Gabs, so I wasn't > sure you were getting that we were starting from the same premise. No, just about everybody noticed the differences in Xena in regards to her warrior expertise in Season Four. I remember endless debates on it on all the lists I was on at the time. Along the lines of "What the FURK is going on with Xena?!" But all the discussions I saw revolved around her sudden "failures" at her job. I didn't see anyone else talk about her relationship with Gabrielle suddenly being transformed. Those who spoke about Gabrielle (and there were some...) were mostly in an absolute tizzy about Gabrielle suddenly becoming a peacenik. A change which I felt wasn't totally irrational at all. That striving towards talking things out without resorting to weapons was always present in Gab. (Except when she got all wrapped up in an excited, yippy haze while watching Xena fight.) Sure, we saw Gabrielle turning into a warrior and then suddenly turning totally against that. Even to the point of throwing away her staff in whatever episode that was. But the events of season three were horrific for both grrls. And I don't think it was a totally out of the blue character change for Gabrielle to turn her focus towards peaceful solutions as she had so often advocated. (Not wanting to kill Phantes in Hooves and Harlots, treating the enemy as human beings in The Price, asking if Xena thought that Callisto might feel sorry for the things she's done in A Necessary Evil. Because as Gabrielle says, "I do. I have to, or I can't forgive her. And if I can't forgive her, I can't move on.) She's been hurt and damaged by Hope and Dahak. Peace probably looks like a great haven to her. I remember that Gabrielle's turn towards not wanting to fight generated a huge discussion on the lists about Pacificism. Some folks absolutely raged at PacRen for "getting it wrong". I doubt very strongly that RJ, with his great interests in comparative religions, philosophy and social movements, would be so far off base in depicting "peace warriors". What these fans missed I think was the fact that GABRIELLE got it wrong. She was more committed to a life with Xena than to a life as a pacifist. So of course she didn't get it right. One thing I recently read on another list was very interesting--someone suggested that the reason Gabrielle was such an "evil stepmother" to Eve was that she was jealous that Eve DID get it right. That Eve could follow Eli's Way so absolutely when Gabrielle had not been able to do so. I thought that had a possible grain of truth in it. > > >I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up > > >with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. > > > > > > What lead? Where to? >> > > Joining up with Najara, staying in Paradise, shopping for Indian clothes , > possibly tagging along with Eli. (Ooo, that reminds me, Xena tried to send > Gabs away in Past Imperfect. Score another one for KT on the Leaving Gabs > Behind scale.) Xena bonded with Eli very early. I think she and Eli were friends before he and Gabrielle were. And they've had other warriors around them before. They often wind up in a group fighting a battle. The Price. The Giant Killer. Lost Mariner. Ulysses. Dirty Half Dozen. The ensemble cast of Amarice, Joxer and Armon. They been involved in numerous battles for the Amazons and with the Romans. The shows have other characters in them just about every week. I mean, c'mon you HAVE to have new (or old) characters show up in order to hang stories on them. And there's got to be interaction, so they've got to be in the same picture frame on our teevees. And again, this is just showing that Xena doesn't trust her twitchy senses anymore. She KNOWS bad stuff is coming down in Paradise Found. She knows right from the beginning that Najara is a big ol' phony. But instead of walking away from her, she ASKS her for advice! It has nothing to do with following where Gabrielle leads but everything to do with not trusting her own abilities anymore. BECAUSE she learned in season three that perhaps her old way of belief and the way she was living her life was totally bogus in some ways. > > > Ife: > > >In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs. The difference in > > S4 > > >is that Xena's the one choosing to leave. > > > > > > She left her in The Debt. She left her in Maternal Instincts. She left her > > at the temple in Forget me not, not knowing if Gabrielle would chose to > > remember her and return to her or not. >> > > Those were all season 3. Look up there at what you wrote. And I quote, "In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs." Is season 3 not the past of season 4? And in those examples, Gabrielle is not choosing to leave, Xena is choosing to leave her behind. I thought S4 was an aberration because of > the vision, but we do have the *suicide missions* of Gurkhan and the Ring, > where Xena leaves Gabs behind. Exactly. Once again, the behavior that Xena is displaying towards Gabrielle in season four, is typical behavior present in every other season. There's nothing new about it. IFE: > I'm talking S4. I see the threat of Xena's past as being different from her > viewing herself as a bad influence in the present. I see Xena's past as being the reason she sees herself as a bad influence. The whole show revolves around her making atonement for that past--her quest is the underlying theme of the series. Her period of being Evil Inner Child Xena is what shadows her whole life and what makes her think she's so despicable a person. One whose past generates evil events in her present. The consequences of which often fall hardest upon the good people around her. > > > > I saw the indecisiveness with the rest of the world. Much less with > > Gabrielle. She doesn't have to fight Gabrielle, so this loss of > > confidence in herself as a warrior doesn't factor in her relationship with > > her. >> > > It was more than just fighting. It was loss of confidence in her instincts, > her judgment, her focus. All of those were very much at play in deferring to > Gabs' initial openness to Aiden and Najara, to her wanting to leave Gabs > behind. That's all part of her "fighting". That's what her job is all about. And as I said, this loss of self-confidence is what's at the root of her not being able to immediately act upon her twitchy sense suspicions regarding Aiden and Najara. It had nothing to do with thinking Gabrielle was more right than she was about them. She expressed suspicion of them all along. It was her lack of ACTING upon her suspicions that was different. And she didn't act because she no longer trusted in herself. It was not at all that she trusted Gabrielle more. She trusted herself less. And so did nothing. Until the end of the eps, or course, when as always, Xena rides to the rescue. (Or in this case, rabbits to the rescue.) >KT: > How come Najara can beat her up? How come she ASKS Najara for > > > advice on if she thinks the vision could be real? Xena NEVER asked anybody > > for advice, never mind the warlord of the week. >> > Ife: > But why were they with Najara in the first place? Because of Gabs' response > to Najara, not just because Najara could fight and use pretty words. Why did > she think Najara could give Gabs "joy and meaning"? Because of Najara's > interactions with Gabs. Because Xena wanted to believe it would make Gabs happy. > Just like she thought Gabrielle would be happier when she took off to go home to Poteidia, just like when she didn't object when Gabrielle toddled off to the Academy, just like when she kissed her goodbye at the altar when she married Perdicus, making those sad little left behind faces behind Gabrielle's back. Sniffle. > > She no longer accepts she's got the ovaries to be the baddest momma in > > the forest. And so gets her butt kicked regularly. Hell, even Gabrielle > > gives her a swat on the rear in public in both Paradise Found and Devi. > > Only Ares had ever got away with that before and that was only because she > > was crazy at the time. >> > > Um, I was looking for something a little more substantial than that. Even in > Devi, she's hesitant to hurt Gabs' body. > Except for when Gabrielle is involved in killing her children, Xena never wants to hurt her or see her hurt. Mentally, morally or physically. Again--this is constant throughout the whole series. > > >IFE: > > >Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, > > >insecure, indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or > > >how she treats > > Gabrielle? > > >If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as always, then what > > >else is so "disconcertingly" different? > > > > > > -- Ife > > > > KT: > > Everything about her being a warrior. Which of course, is her basic, > > bottom line self. >> > > Ife: > That's all well and good. I was hoping you could give examples (other than > Locked Up) that weren't related to Gabs in some way. We even hear Xena's > greatest fear ("I can't be a warrior") expressed to Gabs. Sure, Gabs is the > audience's way of knowing this, but even the instances of Xena's getting her butt > kicked or making weird decisions are generally related to Gabs. > I don't agree. I think it's a direct result of Xena being very shaken up by the season three shattering of her concept of herself as doing good by being a warrior. And as a result of Solon's forgiveness towards Gabrielle's part in his murder. I thought you gave the example of Locked up. Thel and I gave numerous examples of her faltering in her job. The most conspicuous was her getting beaten up by dweeb of the week in Pomira and by Najara. Sure, there have been a few rare instances of Xena getting hurt long distance--she can't evade the barrage of arrows from the warlord's minions in Chariots of war and Callisto tosses a long range dart into her neck that ultimately almost kills her. She runs around with slash marks on her shoulder after fights all the time. (Though I don't remember when that "signature" image started.) But she has never ever been bested in hand to hand combat before. Until season four. And as she says to Gabrielle, "...a warrior cannot ask these questions in the heat of battle. When the kill is there, you have to take it. If I can't do that....I can't be a warrior, anymore." (And of course in the blooper tape, when the director yells, "Cut!" Lucy looks at Renee wide-eyed and says very worriedly, "And then our show is over!" LOL!) Ife: > I'm not saying Gabs was the only reason for all this. My initial point was > that Gabs happens to provide the reason for why we hear and see Xena act > indecisively, trust people she wouldn't ordinarily, and get her butt kicked. My > initial point was that, as a consquence, we saw Xena treating Gabs or those > situations in a way that -- no matter how often we'd seen Xena do that in the past > -- seemed uncharacteristically muddled. I'm not trying to say it was all > about Gabrielle. I've been saying the opposite -- that it was all about what was > going on in Xena's head, which got acted out primarily in her interactions > with or involving Gabrielle. All of the things you bring up were present in every season. I just don't see what you're seeing that is any different about their relationship in season four. To me, it's as I said before, just the same-ol', same-ol'. In most other instances I can think of in S4 > (Family Affair, Good Day, Past Imperfect, Daughter) prior to The Way, Xena is her > usual confident self -- except if she's worried about Gabs. > > -- Ife Usual confident self? I don't see that. In Family Affair, Xena says, "I'm searching for answers too". I remember writing when it first aired what a surprise it was to see Xena actually talking about her mission in terms of it being a mental journey of self-discovery. She always in the past seemed to consider it mainly a physical journey of atonement, of her having to DO things to try to make up to her victims for her past viciousness. This is one of the first times I think that she not only expresses her quest in terms of recreating herself as a good person in her own internal landscape, as she was before Cortez came to Amphipolis, but it also shows her regarding herself as a pilgrim on that quest, seeking personal enlightenment, answers to her questions so that she can regain that good soul she used to have. This is VERY different to me. At the time, I found it very refreshing that for once she put her own journey on as spiritual and educational a level as Gabrielle's coming of age journey. (This was of course, before people started beating her up.) At any rate,it's the first reference we have to Xena's insecurity about herself this season--that she's "looking for answers", no longer acting (immediately) as if she knows all the answers. In "Good Day", she has a near break-down at the end when she has this exchange with Gabrielle: Gabrielle: "I could have saved him. How do I get over that?" Xena: "I can't answer that question. Maybe because there's nothing I can say that can take away that feeling you have. You want know that what you did was for all the right reasons. But with that pain in your gut and the weight on your shoulders, the best you can come up with is that it was a good day of fighting. I've seen so many changes in you. Things I could never have expected. But as hard as the changes have been, you've got to know that it's for a reason. All this is for a reason. Otherwise, what's the point? I was asking myself that same question when I first met you." Watch Xena's face and listen to her voice as she says the line, "Otherwise, what's the point?" She's totally distraught, she's in deep pain, her voice cracks as she asks, "What's the point?" It's very obvious that she knows she's got this facade put up to explain why so many good people die everyday in wars that they had no personal input into starting. And that only this facade makes it possible to go out there day after day and draw your sword and face the "enemy" and either kill or be killed. Again, a very deep peek into the anguish in this warrior woman's soul that we had not really seen in her attitude towards her work in the present as opposed to her feelings about her past, that she had made obvious in many eps. Yet another indication of her questioning of her place in life and her mission. She used to laugh with glee during battles. She doesn't do that in season four. And of course in Daughter of Pomira we have one of the most overt signs of Xena's new insecurity--when she almost gets beaten up by the dweeb of the week. Good gods... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:45:21 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) Last one on this thread--I PROMISE! Thel replied to Ife: > > > > Your 'space' is too metaphysical for me. I tend to be literal-minded > > > about > > > words. To me, space is that which is measured in three dimensions. If > > > I figuratively talk about 'my space' I mean a physical area which I am > > > occupying. Or using, or working in. So, to me, someone who takes off > > > over > > > the horizon and leaves me to it cannot possibly be intruding on my > > > space.>> > > Ife: > > Exactly! You don't have to worry about whether they're getting too close, > > how often they do that, etc. That's why I discounted the notion that > > giving Gabs' "space" to leave was as significant to X&G's interactions as > > the times when Gabs was -- to use your definition -- literally in Xena's > > space. It's also why I gave less value to Xena's going off to do her thing > > and left Gabs to sit (preferably where Xena left her) doing her thing. > > They're still not literally in each other's space, needing to figure out > > comfortable distances. I actually like your literal view, but got into a > > more "metaphysical" one because of KT's use of "space." My gyrations were > > because I was trying to 'splain myself using her words. > Oh no you don't, Ife. YOU first used the psychological jargon concept of "space" in this discussion. I don't use that word that way. IF I did, it would have been tongue in cheek, with quotes around it. But I don't believe I brought that concept up at all. You did. Thel: > Oh, OK, I'll shoot KT instead then. (Launches ICBM in the general > direction of Alaska. [bang] ) There, that's done. Ah, thank you, dear! That explains the very warm early March weather we enjoyed. It does not however, explain the somewhat cold late March weather we are currently experiencing. It hit 27 below last night and my shower drain froze up. I HATE stepping into the shower and feeling cool water pooling around my ankles... Now, as we were > saying... you gave less value to Xena going off to do her thing - I think > you mean you attached less significance to it? Umm, I've lost the thread, Yes, haven't we all. Grin. Thel? > > > > However, my view is that much of Xena's uncertainty came from her fear > > > that she was somehow going to be responsible for Gabs getting crucified. > > > So to me, Gabs was an indirect cause of Xena 'not being herself'. Not > > > because of > > > anything she did, just that she was there. Had she been safe and far > > > away, > > > Xena would have been less apprehensive. This is why she tried (as KT > > > said) > > > to give Gabs away even more than usual in S4. >> > > Yes. That I did say. She more often just tried to leave her behind. In season four she kept trying to give her away. It was NOT successful. Perhaps Gabrielle's reputation as a self-righteous pain in the butt preceeded her? I imagine the gossip mills of the time were buzzing about Xena the Destroyer of Nations hanging around with an irritating little blond kid who kept claiming that Xena was now a force for good. AND who kept getting in Xena's face (THAT phrase, I do use...) as she tried to do her job in ways that do work in war, but were unacceptable in the little blond kid's world view. NOT that *I* have any problem with that. (Well, other than the self-righteous part.) Gabrielle's job was to be Xena's Jiminy Cricket. And the lord knows, Jiminy Crickets, while usually right, can be a real downer to hang around with. Oh hey--wouldn't THAT have been a fun "homage"? Xena as the wooden, stiff puppet trying to become a real person, Gabrielle as Jiminy, Joxer as the bumbling little Figaro, hmmmm Ares as Gepetto? (Since he's been pulling Xena's strings for a LOOOOONG time), Callisto as a somewhat crazed Blue Fairy, all of Xena's bad boy lust stirrers as the naughty gang on Pleasure Island (and what GREAT scenes we could have with Xena and all those bad boys, smoking, drinking, gambling and various other carousings--hooooo- hoooooo!), Salmoneous as the nasty, money grubbing circus master, Minya and Paulina (from The Plays The Thing) as the fox and cat actors and Alti as Monstro. (She could make growly innuendos about eating Xena.) Boy, did they miss the boat on that one or what? > > Where o where did I say differently? All I wanted to get across was > > that I didn't think Gabs *did* anything in particular to cause Xena's > > conflictedness. Gabs was not responsible for the vision. Gabs was not > > responsible for how Xena reacted to the vision. Yes, I absolutely agree > > that concern for Gabs was at the root of Xena's fear and indecisiveness. I > > saw that reflected in Xena's behavior toward Gabs and anything connected to > > Gabs. > > Umm. OK. I think this is starting to get obscure. I won't pursue it. > > (rest snipped) > > cr Aw c'mon Thel. When has obtuse, er excuse me, obscure ever stopped you and Ife before? A discourse on handicapped drivers anyone? KT wink Hmmmm. I see heck maybe close to a hundred posts with various subject lines, but apparently about the same thing--"The Unattractive Xena", "The Eye of the Beholder", The seasons. DARE I dip my toe in one of those....hmmmmmmm ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #93 *************************************