From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #88 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, March 29 2004 Volume 04 : Number 088 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re; Unattractive Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons ["Jackie M. Young" ] [chakram-refugees] Bad Jeremy Roberts news! ["Xena Torres" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder ["Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re; Unattractive Xena On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:58, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > Well I think the answer is no, we would not have wanted to watch a Xena who > was over weight (I do not consider first season Xena over weight, in the > same way I do not consider Marilyn Monroe fat) or unattractive. I never thought of Xena as being overweight. What I do think is that terrible leather armour made her look fat - skinny-waisted but fat above and below. Not a shape I like. When I happened to notice it. > If Xena > was over weight she would have a heck of a time flipping through the air > and she would get terribly winded in those sword fights (she also would > have had trouble getting up on Argo and poor Argo would given out some time > in the middle of season 1 if she had to carry both a fat Xena and a chubby > Gabrielle). Also if Xena would have been unattractive it would have been > fairly difficult for her to have a.) seduced Iolus in Warrior Princess, b.) > get her heart unchained by Hercules (although Herc would have tried to > reform her any way but probably without the kissing), c.) had Ares lust > after her, d.) seduced Borias, or e.) fascinated Gabrielle enough to run > off with her. The general outcome would have been no Xena, Warrior > Princess. Good point. In order for Xena to have done all the things she did, she would have needed to be fit and good-looking, at least. (It's nice to have a logical argument to bolster my prejudices :) What the heck - I like to watch good-looking, intelligent, interesting people on screen (and the second and third of those are more important than the first). I really don't want to watch boring, nondescript, stupid people, I can do that at work If that's elitist, then I'm elitist. (snip) > PS: There is however a very amusing fan fiction story by Ella Quincy that > does address the fact that Gabrielle may have fudged a bit about both > Xena's and Gabrielle's appearance and fighting abilities. Not the first time doubt has been cast on Gabs' accuracy - "Left a few details out of those stories, didn't you?" (Kahina, Legacy) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:31:38 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:56:33 +1200, cr wrote: > Even if it was written about in ST books, I would >hardly call that 'independent' - every fandom likes to think its series >was somehow important or significant. - --Agreed, but the ST books cited the articles or places where the "kiss" caused outrage (sorry, I don't have time to look all this info up--you'll just have to trust me). These publications were "independent" publications, i.e., mainstream publications, not fandom publications, so there was a wider response to the "kiss" than just the fans. You *assumed* that whatever opinion I had as a ST fan held no water, when you didn't ask me to further explain on what basis I held that opinion.....just like..... >(This presupposes, of course, that Lilli is not a dyed-in-the-wool Trek >fan herself :) - --.....you *assumed* Lilli spoke as a non-ST fan, when you don't know that for a fact, do you (no offense to Lilli in all of this--I'm just addressing Thel's *illogic* in this issue)?? >Debating, discussing - is there much difference in this context? - --Yes, I believe there is. A "debate" is more formal and more...*ummm*..."aggressive". A "discussion" is more friendly and more about expressing different opinions and about finding out more information. I would like to believe here on C-R we are about the latter, not the former. >> Terms such as "missing the point" or "begging the question" are not >> necessarily "debating" terms, but terms used in everyday conversation-- > >Well that depends on how they're used. It's very easy to throw them >around but they should not, IMO, be used unjustifiably. - --Well, obviously, IMO, I felt I was using them justifiably. ;P How else would I express the fact that I felt you were missing the point? "You're not getting it", "you're not seeing my POV", are all about the same, IMO. "Begging the question" is based on argumentation, but it's a capsulated expression that I like for when someone wants to get around the premise of the point, and I've heard others use it as well (TV announcers, public figures, etc.). Basically, everything said on this list is OO (our opinion); it's all subjective. To keep justifying it *every* single time is overdoing it IMO. To give examples of why we believe what we do is good, because then others will either find something to resonate with or not; but to say using a term is "unjustifiable" is IMO....."unjustifiable". ;) Next time, ask me to give you an example, rather than say "don't use this term because I don't agree with it". - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:39:07 -0800 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Bad Jeremy Roberts news! I was fixing the dead links on my interview page and checked out Jeremy's website, and discovered that he had a heart attack and quadruple bypass surgery during the shooting of Showtimes "Going to California" series! I have no idea when this happened. GET WELL SOON JEREMY! The Xenaverse is thinking of you! BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee. Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:42:40 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:54:58 +1200, cr wrote: > I see that Ife had no trouble saying what she meant by >'exploitative'. - --But that's because she's highly talented and skilled at exposition. ;) Plus, she's already said she's experienced at searching out different opinions on a matter and keeping an *open mind*. ;) I think Ife should be our "List Translator" or sumpin'. ;) > The reason I asked you to define what you meant by it was that if you >don't, it's just another of those vaguely pejorative terms that's so easy >to apply. - --But I did give some examples, which Ife used to "translate" for me. ;P And you also give sweeping generalizations about eps, mostly "I liked it" or "I didn't like it", but it still all comes down to subjectivity, so what's the difference? - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:49:37 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:16:39 +1200, cr wrote: >Maybe it's just my prejudice (or an eye of the beholder thing) but IMO >Lucy rarely looked good in a hat and never in a helmet. And (IMO) that >leather armour was always very unflattering and she looked much better in >almost every other costume. So, for me, the suggestion that I let her >get away with doing awful things just because she looked beautiful, just >ain't so. I let her get away with doing awful things because she's >interesting. - --But the examples above are temporary "costumes" she donned as she played different roles in her life. We all _knew_ underneath what she really looked like, and how *good* she could look when she wanted to. You're getting a *temporary*, *superficial* look (i.e., camera angle, lighting, costume) mixed up with LL's/X's actual day-to-day beauty. I.e., would you have found her as "interesting" a character, if, as Ife said, had looked like Minya? Over 6 seasons? - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:17:15 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:13:32 EST, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >You know, I wonder how much your question is related to the genre. >There've been comedies where main characters weren't Barbie dolls. - --You could be possibly correct in this point. I think viewers are more forgiving of comedic chracters than they are of action or dramatic characters in the looks category. I.e., Lucille Ball or Lily Tomlin or Carol Burnett were not exactly "stunners" in the looks dept. when they had TV shows. But I think that's the difference between "entertainers" (i.e., comedians or musicians) and "actors" (people the viewers have to identify with or be sympathetic to). > I've little doubt they wouldn't have watched a Minya-type character for >more than a few minutes or found it credible that she >could leap across oceans. Lucy was perfect because she managed to blend >eye candy with believability as a warrior. - --Spot-on! (as the NZers and UKers on this list would say ;) ) Alison Wall is an extremely talented actress, but would we have been willing to watch her as X for 6 seasons? > But, then, most of the major folks (certainly the women) on XWP did >that. - --I beg to disagree here. I never could believe HL as Callisto because she was too skinny and psycho, and I never got into KMorris as Najara for some of the same reasons. OTOH, VPratt and DCormack were *great*! > I thought she was rather plain, dour and heavy for a female lead in any >show, which I really liked. I took her seriously from the get-go >because I thought the focus would be more on what she did than on how she >looked. - --I really didn't see LL as plain or dour, though I liked the fact that she wasn't stick-thin (at least on TV). When I first saw her, I thought, "Wow, she's beautiful and *strong* and she's the hero--that's *sexy*". I was hooked at first sight. ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:25:35 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Time to Post [was: Lucy in Celebrity Skin Issue #126] On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:05:13 +0000, Silenus wrote: >How do you guys manage to write so much? I can't keep up. I see >something in a post I want to comment on but by the time I've got round >to putting my post together, the conversation's moved a hundred miles >down the road. - --Unlike another list I'm on, it's the *quality* that counts here, not the *quantity* (or the timeliness). ;) If you've noticed, I've been posting on a topic that's at least a week or two old, so I'd say "go for it"! I have a lot of probs keeping up with list mail during the week because I'm working full-time (unlike _some_ people on this list ;P ), so I catch up when I can (and all at once, as you can tell!). So, you're not alone on the "time" issue at all. ;) >Still, I am retiring from work at the end of the month, so I should be >able to do better. - --I'd *love* to retire *today*!! Alas, it's not possible.....;( *sigh* But think of all the things you can catch up on when you do.....;=) All the XWP eps you can watch and re-watch.....;=) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:39:19 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Unattractive Xena On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:58:30 -0500, "Cheryl Ande" wrote: >If Xena was overweight she would have a heck of a time flipping through >the air and she would get terribly winded in those sword fights (she also >would have had trouble getting up on Argo and poor Argo would given out >some time in the middle of season 1 if she had to carry both a fat Xena >and a chubby Gabrielle). - --*ROFLMAO*!!! ;=) Oh, CherylA, some of your comments are *priceless*!!! ;=) You just made me LOL!!! ;=) I think this just about says it all with regards to an unattractive X. ;=) LOL >You cannot compare Xena with the movie Monster. They are two entirely >different genres and the job the Charlize Theron had to do was entirely >different from the job Lucy had. Theron was portraying a real person and >her appearance was altered to make her look like that person. Lucy was >portraying a fantasy character. - --I wasn't necessarily comparing the job Theron did to the job LL did. All I said was that I thought LL could've possibly have done the same job, if she had to. I.e., not rely on her looks to get the job done. But in XWP, I think her looks were critical to her character. I.e., I doubt Salmoneous' line about "those boots, that leather, those legs" (or sumpin' like that) would've had a whole different meaning if Roseanne Barr had gotten the role. ;) And the whole premise of "having it all", i.e., femininity, strength, sexiness, would not have really been a package deal if there were no attractiveness in the actress that played X. Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:34:53 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re; Unattractive Xena - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" To: "Cheryl Ande" ; > > Good point. In order for Xena to have done all the things she did, she > would have needed to be fit and good-looking, at least. (It's nice to > have a logical argument to bolster my prejudices :) > > What the heck - I like to watch good-looking, intelligent, interesting people > on screen (and the second and third of those are more important than the > first). I really don't want to watch boring, nondescript, stupid people, I > can do that at work > > If that's elitist, then I'm elitist. > I don't know why so many of us are afraid to admit that we do like to watch intelligen and interesting people who happen to be good looking. In fact there have been studies to show that we actually view people we like as being better looking than people we don't like so the question is : Is Xena attractive because we like her or do we like her because she is good looking? Now take Carl Urban - I thought he was better looking as cave boy in Amazon High than as Caesar. Now was that perception of him formed because he was a romantic lead in one show and a villian in another. I thought Kevin Smith was handsom as Ares and rather ordinary looking as Hercules's brother was that because Herc's brother was boring? Callisto was certainly attractive but I never forgave her character her crimes because she was good looking - whatever sympathy I had for her came because I understoood that her pain was destroying her. Valasca was beautiful but I don't think she garnered much sympathy from the audience. I actually don't think liking Xena or forgiving her has anything at all to do with beautism - I think we just like Xena. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:32:43 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy in Celebrity Skin Issue #126 In a message dated 3/27/2004 9:15:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >>Weapons plural? I thought it was only one.... >> > > > >Sword. Chakram. > > Errm, nope, I was referring to the weapon (singular I think) that 'tumbled > out' as the guy so regrettably put it. >> Yes, I figured that. Another of my failed attempts at humor. In terms the writer, I doubt he can ever picture one "weapon" without the other. Ergo, plural. Always. > Actually, I rather doubt that - copyright is still copyright. > Technically, > all the screen caps on all our Xena web pages are in breach of copyright. > We get away with it because RenPics (or Universal or whoever owns the > copyright) has been remarkably broad-minded about such things, IMO. > > I expect CS gets away with it because it's sufficiently obscure that nobody > 'featured' therein is going to give them any free publicity by suing. >> Or, the producers of the various shows/films don't mind extra publicity among viewers who might buy videos and DVDs just to see the highlighted moments. > > >Also, a less hurried scan of the magazine revealed (heh) that the very > >first ... spread ... of TV "hotties" is devoted to a "Mindy" Clarke who > >looks suspiciously like Melinda CIarke (Velesca). There are 11 photos that > >leave very little to the imagination in terms of what her top and bottom > >look like. They're from the films "Return of the Living Dead (1993) and > >"Return to Two Moon Junction" (1994). Maybe those Skin folks didn't do > >such good research after all when it came to XWP alums. Or maybe that's > >actually Melinda's lookalike cousin? > > Umm, you mean they missed the fact that Melinda Clarke was in XWP? >> Uh huh. Unless this Mindy Clarke is actually a different person. I checked out "Necessary Evil" today. There was a strong resemblance between the two, except Mindy probably wouldn't have needed a push-up bra. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:32:44 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re; Unattractive Xena In a message dated 3/27/2004 9:15:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > There is however a very amusing fan fiction story by Ella Quincy that > does address the fact that Gabrielle may have fudged a bit about both Xena's > and Gabrielle's appearance and fighting abilities. > Lucy would probably get a kick out of how much better (and bigger) her/Xena's assets get in some of those stories. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:32:45 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:53:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I do agree that indivdual interpretation is much involved, specially in > judging what's 'exploitative'. What I would have called 'exploitative' > though, was eps that tried to 'cash in' on previous successful eps e.g. Them > > Bones and Purity/Back in the Bottle - though I hasten to say I *liked* those > > eps, still they couldn't compete with Sin Trade or The Debt. >> Interesting. I never associated those eps with previous ones. But Xenastaff were quite honest about XWP exploiting some of their favorite work -- from the Hong Kong movies, to "Ground Hog Day" or "The Magnificent Seven." There are probably younger viewers in particular who don't realize just how much of XWP creatively "borrowed"from (heh, "paid homage" to) a ton of previous fare in style, storylines, etc. > > Personally, I didn't find the 'death of the gods' theme exploitative at all. > > The Greek gods (as seen in Herc/XWP) were, after all, as much RenPics' > creations as anyone else's, and IMO RenPics could use them as they saw fit. > >> Again, I meant more in terms of manufacturing emotional tension that didn't come from the characters themselves. However, there may be some who had reservations about the treatment of religions and philosophies that still exist. I personally had problems with RT's obsession with crosses and other heavily Christian themes that muddied the water for me if I thought about them too much. I purposely avoided allowing that to play on my emotions > > Nor did I find the Rift at all exploitative - (but then I never felt Hope > was > cute, just the spawn of the devil) - and it led to some of the best stuff > they'd done. >> From the objections I saw, it was more about Gabs, not Hope. > > What I would say is 'exploitative' would be an ep that brought up heavy > themes and then *didn't* do justice to them. Hmm, Xena getting crucified > in > 'Fates', maybe. Xena getting beaten up in the dungeon in 'Gurkhan'. > (The more perceptive among you will notice those are scenes I don't like ;)> > Maybe because they seem overdone or unnecessary to you? I guess I saw skin and violence as "routine" exploitation, in that they were a part of the fabric of the show. Beyond that, I saw other aspects as more provocative than exploitative, in that they usually made me think -- as opposed simple titillation with no other purpose. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:32:47 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Unattractive Xena I thought these comments from Lucy in the recent Weekender article were interesting, in light of our "attractiveness" discussion: << LL: People are really curious. They think I'm a 700-pound gorilla. I want to make the audience laugh and cry. I would like the chance to play roles where I get to be really ugly or really stupid, those that involve moral peril and desperate circumstances. I love comedy. I started out with comedy. BW: Would you play the role of a damsel in distress? LL: I'm not really attracted to the role of a damsel in distress. It's so one-dimensional. I go for interesting roles. BW: Who is your female role model? LL: I'm crazy about my mother. I think what I do falls short of what she did for our family. Apart from her, I'd like to think I'm my own role model. You have to tell women today that they can be their own role models. >> - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:32:47 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:53:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Lucy was perfect > >because she managed to blend eye candy with believability as a warrior. > >But, then, most of the major folks (certainly the women) on XWP did that. > >So, at least for XWP, > > umm, should there be something else there? I think maybe you left that > sentence unfinished? >> LOL! Another "senior moment." I think I was going to say that XWP was consistent in finding actors who could blend eye candy with believability. > > >I've mentioned before that I hadn't seen the eps (e.g., the trilogy, > >"Chariots") where she looked particularly attractive. I thought she was > >rather plain, dour and heavy for a female lead in any show, which I really > >liked. > > That was just the terrible leather 'armour' made her look like that. > I'm surprised she didn't clank when she walked ;) >> I think she was trying to "bulk up" earlier on, as well as project a certain dourness. If I had to say whether she was more interested in achieving attractiveness or a physical presence that defied stereotypical attractiveness in "typical" Xena, I'd have to choose the latter. Again, it's back to our agreement that she didn't care so much about being "attractive," as making her character believably superior in a rough, tough world. > >I can't say at this point how > >I would've felt if she'd worn that poof hairdo six seasons. > > > >-- Ife > > You mean the one in the Herc trilogy? I could've lived with it. > No, no, that "do" in Xena eps where she had this poof at the top of her head. > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #88 *************************************